zuker12 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Seriously, what is and is not witchcraft according to a judeo-christian definition? I mean some nutters might label anything that is not explicitly originally from nature (and when it fits things from nature too) witchcraft. This has of course everything to do with control and paranoias instead of reality. But did the old timers have a definition of it? Is it explicitly spirit-communing, divination kind or is there any definition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 16, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 16, 2014 Actually, it's all about beer. In the early Dark Ages, beer was often brewed by women, who would brew for family consumption. They wore weird hats to keep their hair from falling into the beer and contaminating it. They would brew the beer in huge kettles over an open fire and would hang a broom above their door when the beer was ready. Later, the monks started brewing beer and wanted to wrest control of beer production away from the herbalist, so they made up the concept of witches wearing weird hats, flying around on brooms, and stirring up their witch's brew. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 16, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 16, 2014 The Bible speaks of necromancy and divination. I doubt our current Wiccans actually meet the Biblical criteria, but I also doubt that it matters to fundies. According to the Bible there are only two kinds of people; those who are with God and those who are against him. Still, various Christians like to focus on certain particular "sins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalEquinox Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Well... there's this: noun 1. the practice of magic, esp. black magic; the use of spells and the invocation of spirits. And this: http://wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htmAlthough, that's pretty much how I see it. I never really cared too much about witchcraft or wiccan as its called today. And, I agree with Florduh in that I doubt the fundies or other flavors of xtianity care and only see Christian or heretic, with god or against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Witchcraft is whatever the inquisitor needs it to mean in order to protect the authority of the Church of Rome. Wait, no . . . that was the Dark Ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 It's sort of complicated, but, technically speaking, according to primary sources from the height of the witch-hunt craze in Europe, witches were people who had sex with the devil in exchange for magical powers. That's the literal definition. Malleus Maleficarum - Hammer of Witches, in English. So, yeah. It wasn't just "people who practiced magic" - because plenty of manuals, called grimoires, existed for calling on demons, angels, or other supernatural things, to do the bidding of the wizard - in the Name of God, of course. Read a Grimoire Here! Tales like that of Faust, who summoned a demon to do his bidding, ending in his being dragged off to hell, warn of the dangers that people believed came with dabbling in the wrong kinds of demon summoning - note that this implies that there are right kinds of demon summoning... (And a helping of anti-intellectualism: poor, stupid, arrogant Dr. Faustus...) Disciplines like alchemy and astrology were part of this more academic tradition of magical pseudo-science, and ultimately became the foundations of modern actual science, when scholars tried to systematize the search for knowledge, so that they wouldn't have to bumble about randomly. Sir Isaac Newton represents this borderland quite nicely: he considered his discoveries in gravity and calculus to be a footnote to his work in alchemy. You know how you learned the colours of the rainbow in Kindergarten, and were like - ROYGBIV... indigo? why not just blue, and purple? why does there have to be another colour I haven't even heard of? - well, Newton had to make one up, for there to be seven official colours (there are actually infinitely many...) so it would go with his alchemy theories. The hostility against "witches" wasn't so much about magic, per se, but that people (poor people or "uneducated" women especially) were getting into stuff that the academic elite wanted to keep for themselves. Notice that this is very restricted to Europe - other cultures have "magic that it's not good to do" that often gets translated as "witchcraft" in a vague sense of bad magic, but it's not, strictly speaking, the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuker12 Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 I guess part of my thought was just a beef with all the nutters implying chemistry is magic and electricity being spirits instead of taking them for what they are. That is heavy paranoia though and removes all trust from anything mundane... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Seriously, what is and is not witchcraft according to a judeo-christian definition? I mean some nutters might label anything that is not explicitly originally from nature (and when it fits things from nature too) witchcraft. This has of course everything to do with control and paranoias instead of reality. But did the old timers have a definition of it? Is it explicitly spirit-communing, divination kind or is there any definition? Witchcraft is creating change in conformity to your will usually thru supernatural means... like praying to Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Witchcraft is whatever the inquisitor needs it to mean in order to protect the authority of the Church of Rome. Wait, no . . . that was the Dark Ages. The smart phone is magick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hello Zuker! When I was a Christian I was taught that this passage, 1 Samuel 28: 3 - 25, was describing witchcraft. Saul and the Medium at Endor3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land. 4 The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. 6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. 7 Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.” “There is one in Endor,” they said. 8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?” 10 Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.” 11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” 13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” 14 “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” 16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.” 20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night. 21 When the woman came to Saul and saw that he was greatly shaken, she said, “Look, your servant has obeyed you. I took my life in my hands and did what you told me to do. 22 Now please listen to your servant and let me give you some food so you may eat and have the strength to go on your way.” 23 He refused and said, “I will not eat.” But his men joined the woman in urging him, and he listened to them. He got up from the ground and sat on the couch. 24 The woman had a fattened calf at the house, which she butchered at once. She took some flour, kneaded it and baked bread without yeast. 25 Then she set it before Saul and his men, and they ate. That same night they got up and left. The teaching I received about this tied Jesus into the equation. When the apostle John was on the island of Patmos he received a vision in which he saw the risen and glorified Christ. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. That last sentence tells why raising up the spirits of the dead is forbidden in Christianity. All authority in heaven and on Earth is given to Jesus. He holds the keys to death and Hades. Therefore, any human witch or medium calling up a dead spirit is doing so in violation of Jesus' authority. That is a sin. All of the spirits of the dead are held in these two 'places' until Judgement Day, when Jesus opens the gates of death and Hades and releases the dead so that he can judge them. After his resurrection, he told the apostles that there were set dates and times for certain things which they were NOT entitled to know. (See Acts 1: 6 & 7) I was taught that the restoration of Israel was begun in 1948, which was information the apostles were NOT entitled to know at that time. But, by consulting with the spirits of the dead, witches and mediums can (somehow?) learn things that humans are not permitted to know. About future events that God has ordained to happen at their due times. Which is another reason why it is sinful. . . . Please note Zuker, that this is what I was... taught. But it's not true. Christianity isn't true. I can confidently state that I have no belief in it whatsoever. Anyway, I hope that helps to answer your question. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 ok,, let see what is witchcraft,,,,, 1. have a bonfire and trying to get the gods to put out the fire but nothing happens OR 2. have a bonfire and get the gods to put out the fire and BIG RAIN and the fire is no more,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuker12 Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 So you could say it is considered a form of cheating lol? Of course most likely it is about control. Cant have spiritists running around telling contradictory messages to our people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miekko Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Seriously, what is and is not witchcraft according to a judeo-christian definition? I mean some nutters might label anything that is not explicitly originally from nature (and when it fits things from nature too) witchcraft. This has of course everything to do with control and paranoias instead of reality. But did the old timers have a definition of it? Is it explicitly spirit-communing, divination kind or is there any definition? There is no "judeo-christian" definition. Almost any question of matters such as these, if you want a "judeo-christian" definition you're asking for a chimera. Jews and Christians often disagree strongly on these things, and even within Judaism and Christianity, there may be long-standing disagreements on any such issue. Bottom-line: stop overusing the word 'judeo-christian', it is overrated and misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The definition has changed, over time, to suit the changes in culture, and the word is often applied, retroactively, to practices in the past, or in other cultures (the past itself is, effectively, a foreign culture.) Given when the King James version was written, this was in the middle of the witchcraft scare, too, and people really believed in that, so "witchcraft" was applied, retroactively, to things in the source material. More recently, though, "Hollywood Voodoo" with the dolls and pins thing is actually more of a European style of folk magic: pins in dolls is just "how it's done" to an audience with a European cultural background, and they expect it (see also poppet, mandrake). Actual Vodou, as in from Haiti, or Louisiana Voodoo, is not quite the same. So, what is called "demonic" or "witchcraft" has changed over time, depending on the culture. Although "witchcraft" as a more specific subset of magic in general which Europeans believed in is a strictly medieval, and early modern thing. (The word being adapted, after that, to encompass spiritual movements like Wicca.) Basically, "witchcraft" in the exact sense didn't exist in the original sources and cultures that wrote the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Seriously, what is and is not witchcraft according to a judeo-christian definition? I mean some nutters might label anything that is not explicitly originally from nature (and when it fits things from nature too) witchcraft. This has of course everything to do with control and paranoias instead of reality. But did the old timers have a definition of it? Is it explicitly spirit-communing, divination kind or is there any definition? Witchcraft is creating change in conformity to your will usually thru supernatural means... like praying to Jesus. *gasp* Does that mean that Christians are engaging in witchcraft when they pray to Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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