jobear Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 A funny thing: I told Siri to remind me to remind me to "add spray and wash to the list" yesterday. She translated that as "ask anti-brainwashing list." I laughed and wondered what I was supposed to ask you guys . I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what it was I ever really believed, which makes it hard to tell my story even to myself. I remember having some doubts when I was young - though I think mostly they were about myself. Instead of questioning what I was being told I was questioning why I couldn't understand what was so clear to everyone around me. I also remember having very firm beliefs like that the rapture was going to happen and I wasn't going. Seems like an odd combination, but there it is. I remember being on my knees and asking Jesus to come into my heart and be my personal savior. I remember my older sister being so proud of me for that. I remember expecting to feel some sort of change, and convincing myself that the lack of noticeable change meant something had gone wrong - I'd said the wrong words, or wasn't sincere enough, or wasn't deserving of god's love so he'd rejected my request. Not that I put it into those words as a young child, but that's the best I can do to explain what was happening in my head. I was baptized soon after, because that's what I was supposed to do. I don't remember what I felt at the time, but I know that when I was older (maybe 12?) I told my parents I wanted to be baptized again. I told them I thought I was too young to really understand what I was doing the first time, and they accepted that. I think that was my excuse to myself for why the magic hadn't happened for me. When it didn't happen the second time, I was lost. The biggest and earliest source of doubt I remember is the whole idea that Jesus died for everyone's sins, but that only counted for some people. Even though I was kind of isolated and thought most people were christians, I knew there were some people who weren't, and I didn't understand how if god loved the world enough to send his only son to save it, why that would have a caveat. I remember trying to ask about that a few times, and basically being told that's just how it works. I was told god could not be in the presence of sin, so he needed jesus to wash away the sins of humans so they could come to heaven. So...how did god appear to some people before Jesus did that? And how can he not be in the presence of something he invented? and if he really wanted us to be able to come to him, why did he create us as sinners in the first place? So much confusion; I'm not sure how much of that was in my head back then, but they are questions I've wondered since. As I got older and realized more and more just how few christians there are in the scheme of things, the less any of it made sense. And the more I realized how few christians, the more I realized how MANY other beliefs. Many of which claim to be the one true thing. And that made me start thinking more seriously about the implications of that, and how lucky you'd have to be to be born in a culture that believes "the right thing" and how if it were all true then god would basically be punishing a lot of people for where they were born and what their parents believed. So at this point I find it impossible to believe most of what my parents taught me, but it's still confusing. I can tell you I don't believe in the rapture anymore, and for the most part that's true, but no matter how much logic I throw at it, there are moments when the clouds suddenly get dark and part in a funny way and something in me still says, "oh shit, here he comes." I also find I still want answers to my questions, even if they don't make sense. Maybe I just want to see that they don't make sense? Maybe I want to be treated like a human being and have my questions treated with respect instead of handwaved? or maybe somewhere in my head I'm still hoping someone can convince me. Sometimes I wonder how I could be smarter than the rest of my family to have seen through all this and gotten away. But sometimes...sometimes I still think I was the dumb one and wonder why I couldn't "get it". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Welcome And no, you're not dumb at all. The big problem (for the religious leaders) is that you do get it in a lot of ways. Some very similar stuff happened to me when I was first finding my way out of Christianity. Gaslighting is when an abuser makes you wonder if you're sane--if you can trust your judgement, if you can rely on your intelligence and moral/ethical framework. If an abuser can make you totally doubt yourself, it makes you much more likely to trust whatever the abuser is saying. Now imagine if that abuser was an entire religious mindset. I think you're on to something really important here. Please don't stop questioning and working on it. There's so much amazing stuff to be learned. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Welcome to the forum jobear. Realising that Christianity is one of many, incompatible religions is a big wake up moment ("I realized how MANY other beliefs"). From that point Christianity becomes a man made mythology and no different to other world belief systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 A funny thing: I told Siri to remind me to remind me to "add spray and wash to the list" yesterday. She translated that as "ask anti-brainwashing list." I laughed and wondered what I was supposed to ask you guys . LOL! I had my doubts about Siri, but now I'm thinking she's pretty smart. Jobear, I've been enjoying your posts on the forum. You are thoughtful, smart, and humane. When I read your childhood thoughts above, they resonated so much! I wonder how many of us had similar doubts, but stuffed them inside after authority figures gave us some feeble explanation or simply told us we were wrong. I wonder if virtually every child raised christian has those questions and doubts -- and I wonder what the big difference is between those who manage to stuff them away forever and continue to believe and those of us who eventually realize that we, as little chilldren, approached important truths and were wrongly deflected from getting real answers. I remember the feeling -- over and over -- of hearing some religious assertion from an adult (parent, pastor, missionary, neighbor) that just seemed so wrong. But they're adults so they must know what they're talking about, right? But now when I look back it's as if each time I accepted one of their false "truths" rather than continuing with my own questions, I divided my self. Eventually my true self got lost under a million tiny fragments of false self, false information, false beliefs, false authority. It takes a long time and solid effort to dig your real self out from under all that! Sounds to me as if you're thinking your way out quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2014 And the more I realized how few christians, the more I realized how MANY other beliefs. Many of which claim to be the one true thing. And that made me start thinking more seriously about the implications of that, and how lucky you'd have to be to be born in a culture that believes "the right thing" and how if it were all true then god would basically be punishing a lot of people for where they were born and what their parents believed. Exactly. Even under the umbrella of "Chrisitianity" there have always been many conflicting sects with vastly different teachings about salvation. Good for you for figuring that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Welcome And no, you're not dumb at all. The big problem (for the religious leaders) is that you do get it in a lot of ways. Some very similar stuff happened to me when I was first finding my way out of Christianity. Gaslighting is when an abuser makes you wonder if you're sane--if you can trust your judgement, if you can rely on your intelligence and moral/ethical framework. If an abuser can make you totally doubt yourself, it makes you much more likely to trust whatever the abuser is saying. Now imagine if that abuser was an entire religious mindset. I think you're on to something really important here. Please don't stop questioning and working on it. There's so much amazing stuff to be learned. Great extimony, Jobear. A lot resonates with me, too. Akheia! Great to see you back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 "Maybe I want to be treated like a human being and have my questions treated with respect instead of handwaved? or maybe somewhere in my head I'm still hoping someone can convince me. Sometimes I wonder how I could be smarter than the rest of my family to have seen through all this and gotten away. But sometimes...sometimes I still think I was the dumb one and wonder why I couldn't 'get it" That's what bothered me so much. That is, why does everybody else understand it and I don't. It is still remarkable to me that all of those people in Sunday School and church seemed fully confident. I understand why now, (I think) but it is still remarkable that all those people were fooling themselves, But taking a broad picture, as you said, you can see how the whole world of religion does just that: fools themselves. In all religions people people fool themselves or just go along and don't make waves. I think not making waves accounts for a lot of "religious" people. The vast majority of people don't like conflict and will avoid it if possible. But I was too much of a glutton for punishment to keep my mouth shut at a certain point in my life. If, for example, the teacher said something that I thought was really weird, I would ask about it in front of the class. Like the idea that everybody goes to hell but Xtians. But I noticed that no one ever said anything on my side of the issue but me. They sat there like statues. Some simply didn't care. Others were afraid to speak up in front of people. Others, I believe, secretly didn't believe that stuff but didn't feel any urge to challenge the teacher. One other points is that Xtianity has been made to appear so complicated. The bible (particularly the King James Version) is so hard to understand as a young person or even as an adult in many cases. All those big words. Surely the minister and my parents understand it far better than I and they believe. It just couldn't be that the emperor is naked, could it? Yes, it could and in fact is, We all believe or have believed myths. That is human nature. History teaches us that if nothing else. As time has gone on more an more people have discovered their particular myth and will continue to do so until we have another dark age, That's my two cents worth. Good luck in your journey. bill t 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobear Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Gaslighting is when an abuser makes you wonder if you're sane--if you can trust your judgement, if you can rely on your intelligence and moral/ethical framework. If an abuser can make you totally doubt yourself, it makes you much more likely to trust whatever the abuser is saying. Yikes. And this is what so many parents are doing to their children in the name of love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobear Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 My web browser seems to have eaten some of my replies. I wanted to thank you all for the support, and for making me feel like I'm not alone. It is difficult to find people I can talk to without running into "I wish you believed what I believe..." Sadly, I get that from both christians and atheists. Many people from both groups don't understand my doubt and confusion (for different reasons, but it's the same problem from my POV). Thank you for making a safe place to admit that I don't understand what's going on in my own head, and that it doesn't always make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milesaway Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 ^Yep, this is a safe place, and you deserve space to sort out your feelings and your questions in an environment that won't just shoot you down and treat you like crap about it. Keep reading up on things around here, and that lingering residual fear you have will sort itself out in time. Your questions are totally valid, and you deserve intellectual honesty when it comes to finding answers that are acceptable to you. You are not alone. It may seem like it where you live, but you're not. In fact, I bet there's someone reading these boards right now with the same questions and feelings you have, or something similar to them, and you're letting them know they aren't alone in what they're dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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