Christian Afterbirth Abortion

[Roz]

Found the damned thing.  After much prayer and supplication, the holy and ever gracious Flying Spaghetti Monster showed me the exact chapter. 

 

For your reading pleasure, christians:

 

2 Samuel 12 NIV

 

 

12 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. ² The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, ³ but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children.

Most assuredly you all know this story.  It's been taught in sunday/sabbath schools, in sermons.  Look at how just god is with David, this rebuke is most wise and kind.  David, of course, says he's sorry and he's truly repentant for taking Bathsheba and murdering Uriah, her husband.

 

 

⁹ Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. ¹⁰ Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

¹¹ “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. ¹² You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

David, because thou hast boinked thy neighbor's wife, and plotteth to kill thy neighbor, I will take your wives (what happened to 1 man and 1 woman?) and have someone close to you boink them in broad daylight.  Do your wives have any say in my holy sentence, says god?  Nein.  Nein nein nein nein nein nein nein (think Inglorious Basterds scene).

 

 

 

¹³ Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. ¹⁴ But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for^[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

God, the merciful and just judge, sees it fit to not kill David.  Yay, isn't god merciful?  But wait!  His son must now die!  "It was OK in that time and in that cultural context.  God is good.  God is good.  God is good."

 

 

 

¹⁵ After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. ¹⁶ David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth^[b] on the ground. ¹⁷ The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.

¹⁸ On the seventh day the child died. David’s attendants were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they thought, “While the child was still living, he wouldn’t listen to us when we spoke to him. How can we now tell him the child is dead? He may do something desperate.”

Isn't god merciful, kind, just, and loving?  Christians, this is the god whom you serve.  Did the child die mercifully?  Without pain?  It was ill for seven days, and then it died.  Read about how David, the ancestor of jesus, spent that week in emotional turmoil.  He was repentant for what he did, not eating anything and lying on the ground.  But still, jesus chose to perform the bible's recorded afterbirth abortion.  Hallelujah. 

 

 

 

¹⁹ David noticed that his attendants were whispering among themselves, and he realized the child was dead. “Is the child dead?” he asked.

“Yes,” they replied, “he is dead.”

²⁰ Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

Let me get this straight.  David, the man after god's own heart, does what after hearing his child is now dead?  He gets up, takes a bath, puts on lotions (ain't it great to be king?), gets on fresh clothes, and goes to god's temple to worship?

Let that sink in for a minute. 

 

He then goes to his house and eats.

 

 

²¹ His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

²² He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ ²³ But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Now that god's carried out his judgment, what's the point?  God is good.  His execution of an infant is just.  Yay god. 

 

 

²⁴ Then David comforted his wife Bathsheba, and he went to her and made love to her. She gave birth to a son, and they named him Solomon. The Lord loved him;

 

The same day that your god executed your infant son, who was afflicted with disease by the same god for seven days... After the bloody business is done you, David, go off to boink your wife (that you took from her husband).  Yup, god is good, his will is done.  Time for fun, honey!

 

 

Christians, the next time you go and picket an abortion clinic, think about 2 Sam 12. If you think I cherry picked and left out anything, please feel free to go to Biblegateway and correct my errors. 

[Pantophobia]

Edit: found what I was looking for! Look, an abortion, IN THE BIBLE, and it's not condemned:

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Numbers+5:16-28&version=nrsv

 

Sorry, Christians, but even the Puritans were a-okay with abortion. This "life begins at ejaculation!" nonsense is less than 200 years old, and political. 

[miekko]

It is also pretty clear the OT does not consider abortion comparable in scope to murder: 

 

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine."

 

So, unlike murder of a person, God considers economic recompense sufficient for accidental terminations of a fetus; this is not just any accidental termination, it's an accidental termination brought about by men fighting.

[amateur]

What are the apologetics for these verses?  I'm too lazy to look them up, and I have breast cancer pre-surgery tomorrow, and the actual surgery on Friday, so right now I'm too lazy (read:  scared and anxious) to do much.

 

It sounds extremely clear to me what the intent is.  I'm so sure they can't claim these different verses to be a metaphor!

[Roz]

Waiting for the crusaders here to respond, but this is what a church elder (no idea of the denomination, he didn't specify) gave to me:

My comments in italic red, and yes, I'm pasting his words verbatim.

 

 

When you read the OT, you must find Christ in the scriptures. Not everything you read is Christ, but he is hidden in every story. When you find him, you'll see what the story is all about. Let me give you an example. 2 Samuel 11 is the story of King David, Bathsheba and her husband Uriah. Long story short, David impregnates Bathsheba, has her husband (Uriah) killed, then God tells David that Bathsheba's newborn must die.

 

This OT story is really taken from Romans 7:1-4. David represents God, Bathsheba = the church, and Uriah is the law. God wants to separate the church from the law that it may be married to spirit of Christ (Romans 7:1-4). But what about the newborn child that dies? Why did God make the baby pay when David is the one that sinned? The child is a picture of Jesus. It has to die, so the church can be reconciled back to God.

---This guy implied to me that the OT story is taken from the NT...  And this is why that infant had to die.  The infant was god's symbol for himself, so when he sacrifices himself unto himself, we will look back at this story of the afterbirth abortion and praise his name for his sacrifice---

You will not read the story of David & Bathsheba this way because you don't have the Spirit.

---Put on your god glasses to read it properly!---

 

But if we study the Hebrew very carefully (all names in Hebrew have meaning), you'll see the story is exactly Romans 7. God is revealing himself (through the weakness of man) as the Savior of mankind.

 

When you see the scriptures in this way, you won't think God is killing an innocent baby, but you'll see that God is killing himself to save us. Uriah being a picture of the law is Jesus before the cross. The baby of Bathsheba is picture of the Son of the King. Everything is a picture of Christ and the story is a hidden version of what Christ did in the light!

---Here I am at a loss for words, his god, jesus, revealed this sadistically wonderful insight to him.  I'm wondering if the other crusaders in this forum will have different answers---

 

 

EDIT:  The metaphorical ham and cheese sandwich just revealed the meaning of the elder's words of wisdom:

Elder:  "David represents God, Bathsheba = the church, and Uriah is the law."

 

So... If that's true...

 

Then god raped his church, and then had the law killed, so he could marry the law in spirit.  Then god kills himself as a sacrifice unto himself to save mankind.  Isn't it wonderful?  Praise jesus.

[Roz]

Forgot to say this bit.  I hope you the best in your surgery, Am.  I wish the doctors, nurses, and support staff the best as well.

[xtify]

In Nathan's story, the rich man kills the poor man's only lamb that he had raised as his child.  Even David sees this as unjust:

 

 

 

 

Then David's anger was greatly kindled against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the Lord lives, the man who has done this deserves to die, and he shall restore the lamb a fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.”

 

So how is this story of injustice any different than the almighty Yahweh, rich owner of everything, killing David and Bathsheba's only precious child?

 

Yahweh is both a baby killer and a hypocrite.

 

---

Amateur, I wish you the very best too!

[Roz]

That's true Xtify, thanks for that insight!  God, the errorless space dictator, self owning himself as he chastises David?  Or some ancient writer making an unfortunate trip up in his story?  Christians, we just report.  You decide

[centauri]

What are the apologetics for these verses?  I'm too lazy to look them up, and I have breast cancer pre-surgery tomorrow, and the actual surgery on Friday, so right now I'm too lazy (read:  scared and anxious) to do much.

 

It sounds extremely clear to me what the intent is.  I'm so sure they can't claim these different verses to be a metaphor!

The abortion scenario in Num 5:11-31 has no apologetic other than to claim that the curse doesn't really affect the womb of a woman, so there is no flushing of the fetus.

Christians will often claim that all translations that say "womb" or "belly" are incorrect.

This is a very feeble attempt to cover up the obvious.

I had the pleasure of pointing this law out in a Yahoo message board and was promptly voted thumbs down many times.

The cult members can't stand it when an ugly truth is pointed out.

Many are stunned to learn that this passage exists.

 

The law is designed for men who don't want to be responsible for a child not their own.

Read it and weep pro-life zealots.

[amateur]

Oh my goodness.  The explanation for that story is flabbergasting!  It makes me glad to be an ex-c just for that insanity alone!

 

(Thanks for the good wishes, everybody!  I appreciate it!)

[bornagainathiest]

Hey Roz!

 

How about this?

 

Psalm 139 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

¹ You have searched me, Lord,
    and you know me.
² You know when I sit and when I rise;
    you perceive my thoughts from afar.
³ You discern my going out and my lying down;
    you are familiar with all my ways.
⁴ Before a word is on my tongue
    you, Lord, know it completely.
⁵ You hem me in behind and before,
    and you lay your hand upon me.
⁶ Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

⁷ Where can I go from your Spirit?
    Where can I flee from your presence?
⁸ If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
    if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
⁹ If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
    if I settle on the far side of the sea,
¹⁰ even there your hand will guide me,
    your right hand will hold me fast.
¹¹ If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me
    and the light become night around me,”
¹² even the darkness will not be dark to you;
    the night will shine like the day,
    for darkness is as light to you.

¹³ For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
¹⁴ I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
¹⁵ My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
¹⁶ Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.
¹⁷ How precious to me are your thoughts,^[a] God!
    How vast is the sum of them!
¹⁸ Were I to count them,
    they would outnumber the grains of sand—
    when I awake, I am still with you.

¹⁹ If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
    Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
²⁰ They speak of you with evil intent;
    your adversaries misuse your name.
²¹ Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
    and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
²² I have nothing but hatred for them;
    I count them my enemies.
²³ Search me, God, and know my heart;
    test me and know my anxious thoughts.
²⁴ See if there is any offensive way in me,
    and lead me in the way everlasting.

.

.

.

See who the psalmist is?  I wonder if he wrote this before or after his fling with Bathsheba?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Roz]

Well how about that, I remember that verse being chanted at pro-life discussions in church!

 

This story just keeps getting more and more F'ed up!  Thanks for the verses BAA!  May the ham and cheese sandwich bless thee

 

EDIT:

Hey, I found the up-thumb button, so there's my first up-thumb to ya

[xtify]

Roz, you make so many great points here.  I was thinking about it and this is a favorite story of many pastors because it is supposed to illustrate both God's justice and mercy.  I've heard it so many times at church in the context of just how much God loved David (like, "isn't God's love good?"; "he was so merciful to David"). But, considering everything that's been mentioned on this thread, how can anyone see this as justice, or mercy?

 

David commits murder.  What is YHVH's judgement?  The baby pays the ultimate price of an agonizing death, the other wives are forced to have adulterous sex in public, and Bathsheba gets it on both ends.  She had her husband killed and for that the punishment is that her baby must die.  

 

The real 'moral' of the story:  PATRIARCHY SUCKS!

[duderonomy]

In a very convoluted way, the moral of this story is you should leave the poor guy alone because all he has is this one wife, and his children, and they are all growing up together.

If David had taken his spoil from the rich man that had many sheep and cattle, his punishment wouldn't have been so severe.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Waiting for the crusaders here to respond, but this is what a church elder (no idea of the denomination, he didn't specify) gave to me:

My comments in italic red, and yes, I'm pasting his words verbatim.

 

 

When you read the OT, you must find Christ in the scriptures. Not everything you read is Christ, but he is hidden in every story. When you find him, you'll see what the story is all about. Let me give you an example. 2 Samuel 11 is the story of King David, Bathsheba and her husband Uriah. Long story short, David impregnates Bathsheba, has her husband (Uriah) killed, then God tells David that Bathsheba's newborn must die.

 

This OT story is really taken from Romans 7:1-4. David represents God, Bathsheba = the church, and Uriah is the law. God wants to separate the church from the law that it may be married to spirit of Christ (Romans 7:1-4). But what about the newborn child that dies? Why did God make the baby pay when David is the one that sinned? The child is a picture of Jesus. It has to die, so the church can be reconciled back to God.

---This guy implied to me that the OT story is taken from the NT...  And this is why that infant had to die.  The infant was god's symbol for himself, so when he sacrifices himself unto himself, we will look back at this story of the afterbirth abortion and praise his name for his sacrifice---

 

You will not read the story of David & Bathsheba this way because you don't have the Spirit.

---Put on your god glasses to read it properly!---

 

But if we study the Hebrew very carefully (all names in Hebrew have meaning), you'll see the story is exactly Romans 7. God is revealing himself (through the weakness of man) as the Savior of mankind.

 

When you see the scriptures in this way, you won't think God is killing an innocent baby, but you'll see that God is killing himself to save us. Uriah being a picture of the law is Jesus before the cross. The baby of Bathsheba is picture of the Son of the King. Everything is a picture of Christ and the story is a hidden version of what Christ did in the light!

---Here I am at a loss for words, his god, jesus, revealed this sadistically wonderful insight to him.  I'm wondering if the other crusaders in this forum will have different answers---

 

 

The biggest problem with this church elder's apologetics is that he is comparing apples to pineapples by comparing the death of Yahweh/Jesus to the death of the innocent baby. The reason why it's a problem is pretty obvious. Yahweh/Jesus had a choice on whether or not to suffer and die but the baby did not. The baby did not have any say in what happened and probably didn't even understand what was happening or why. All the baby would have known was that he was miserable and did not like it.

[Aries256]

How in the hell did we ever, and how in the hell do xtians think this horrible, sadistic, murderous, vile, slimy scumbag was ever a "loving god"? (From birth brainwashing indoctrination aside) I say here and now even IF the abrahamic "god" existed I'd spit in it's eye before following it. I'd rather be a good person and go to hell.

[DoubtingNate]

I found it disturbing that the stand-in for Uriah's wife in the parable is a piece of livestock, and that Bathsheba never says anything the whole time.  She is just a thing for David to take from Uriah, and a vessel for his offspring.  Seems like the main problem with adultery in the OT is that you are messing with another man's property.  

[Scottsman]

How in the hell did we ever, and how in the hell do xtians think this horrible, sadistic, murderous, vile, slimy scumbag was ever a "loving god"? (From birth brainwashing indoctrination aside) I say here and now even IF the abrahamic "god" existed I'd spit in it's eye before following it. I'd rather be a good person and go to hell.

We grew up being told it was true and to not question it.

[Aries256]

yeah sadly

[violetbutterfly]

The baby pays the ultimate price of an agonizing death, the other wives are forced to have adulterous sex in public, and Bathsheba gets it on both ends. She had her husband killed and for that the punishment is that her baby must die.

Yes, it's amazing that because this story is about David, the other human beings in it mean nothing. Oh wait, women and children. They do mean nothing. My bad.

[Aggie]

 

 

Roz,

 

I agree that this parable is absurd.  IMO, it is also applied to the wrong "person" (or three persons if you will).  In v. 7:  "Nathan said to David, ‘You are the man!..."

 

I say that in the Bible, "God is the man."  God has everything, is in complete happiness, and then with complete foreknowledge creates a person who He knows will lack either the willpower or common sense to abstain from breaking a rule that would only bring him misery. Because God evidently loves and cares for a particular piece of fruit more than billions of people, he then curses the entire race for the "crime" of illicit fruit-eating.  Then God enacts a bunch of brutal and ridiculous laws even though he "is love" and is all-wise.  (Of course, these will later be repealed even though they are "perfect.")  He also orders the deaths of innocents and crushes people in savage ways because they are living out the curse he gave them.  Then, come NT, he decides to torture the majority of people for all eternity if they don't believe an absurd, contradictory, and unverifiable message.  All this suggests that God has no ascertainable moral compass, disliked his own happiness, and wanted to be angry with billions of people because of curses that he would inflict on them before they were born.  David comes up roses in comparison.

 

Yet another reason why the sacrifice of Jesus wouldn't help anyone.  If there was a metaphysical reality where a god and could appease himself for the sins of his creatures by his own suicide, he would actually need to be less sinful than the people he was killing himself for.  (He would presumably value fruit less than beings made in his own image and likeness...)