Overcame Faith Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I posted the below in another thread. However, I have decided that this is such an important question that I would start another thread and post it here in the Lion's Den. There are many of our deconverting members who still suffer fear and pain caused by the Christian concept of hell. I do this for them, but I raise the challenge to any Christian takers who would like to discuss this topic and defend the Christian concept of heaven and hell. I say unquivocally: there is no justice at all in the Chrisitian concept of heaven and hell. So let's have it out and take on this subject directly. This is word for word what I posted in the other thread. What say you? In my view, the hell of eternal torment as espoused by most Christians can never be just and neither can the Christian concept of heaven. That's right, they are both unjust.Hell is unjust because there could never be anything that a person can do in one lifetime that would merit eternal pain and suffering. And, yes, though his crimes against humanity were staggeringly horrific, I include Hitler in this statement. But what is even worse is that hell is not given for bad acts, but for the silly "crime" of unbelief, or for not having been baptized, or, worst of all, simply because a person was not one of God's elect (obviously, I am making distinctions based on various denominational interpretations). But no matter the denominational slant, for the vast majority of Christians, hell is ultimately merited because each person was merely born as a human being who somehow inherited the sin of Adam (original sin). As I said, I see no justice in hell.There is also no justice for the Christian notion of heaven. If one believes that heaven is gained by belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then the most vile criminal the world has ever known will gain entry into heaven so long as prior to his death he professes faith while some poor guy who otherwise lived a good life but was not convinced about Jesus writhes in eternal suffering in hell.If one believes that baptism is required for entry into heaven, then the Christian who was taught that Baptism is not required for entry into heaven and was never baptized is out of luck and will also miss out on heaven while the person who was taught the "right thing" gains admittance. Talk about a technicality!If one believes as the Calvinists do that only the elect go to heaven, then forget all notions of justice. Calvinists are reluctant to admit this, but their doctrine requires that babies who die go straight to hell if they are not one of the elect. Need I say more about why there is no justice in that? It is in sensing this very real injustice that many Calvinists make excuse after excuse why such unelected babies will go to heaven. But hell for the unelected babies is a logical consequence of their detestable doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Overcame Faith you've got me all fired up today! I think of all the Christian songs which push Gods "love and mercy" and think what a joke! Here's an oldy but a goody: Amazing farce How putrid the smell That duped a man like me I once believed In all that shit But now thank fuck I'm free Or one of the newsboys classics revised: Agonizing hell How can it be That you my maker Chose this for me Or here's one you'll all know: Swing low sweet hounds of hell Coming now to drag me away Swing low sweet hounds of hell Coming now to drag me away I could do this for hours but this is how our songs should go, it's not actually funny it's sick and anyone who believes innocent men, women or children should suffer forever are SICK and deluded! There is NO justification!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 Overcame Faith you've got me all fired up today! I think of all the Christian songs which push Gods "love and mercy" and think what a joke! Here's an oldy but a goody: Amazing farce How putrid the smell That duped a man like me I once believed In all that shit But now thank fuck I'm free Or one of the newsboys classics revised: Agonizing hell How can it be That you my maker Chose this for me Or here's one you'll all know: Swing low sweet hounds of hell Coming now to drag me away Swing low sweet hounds of hell Coming now to drag me away I could do this for hours but this is how our songs should go, it's not actually funny it's sick and anyone who believes innocent men, women or children should suffer forever are SICK and deluded! There is NO justification!! I had never heard those particular lyrics, but recognized each song and in my terrible singing voice, I sang each one. Those are the words that should be used in those songs because they convey a greater truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 24, 2014 jesus died on the cross so that hindus could burn in the fiery lake. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I probably would have enjoyed church a lot more if Afireinsude wrote all of our songs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 It's time to pour cold water on this hell bullshit, I mean how many innocent children have been brainwashed to believe they are going to hell, that is traumatic and given the fact that the human brain is so impressionable and malleable at an early age it's no wonder so many indoctrinated children go on to hold onto that lie into adulthood and pass it on. It's child abuse and these concepts need to have their teeth kicked out! I think as ex believers we have a duty to to the kicking so put on your fucking steel caps and let's go!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I'm sorry for yelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 jesus died on the cross so that hindus could burn in the fiery lake. Indeed, those "terrible" Hindus. How dare they to expect entry into heaven no matter the life they have lived. Burn and writhe in pain because the Christian God condemns you!! And for what? Well I am not sure. But surely they deserve an eternity in hell - for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 I probably would have enjoyed church a lot more if Afireinsude wrote all of our songs!! Me, too!! Those words would have spoken much more truth than the words of the original songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted March 24, 2014 Author Share Posted March 24, 2014 It's time to pour cold water on this hell bullshit, I mean how many innocent children have been brainwashed to believe they are going to hell, that is traumatic and given the fact that the human brain is so impressionable and malleable at an early age it's no wonder so many indoctrinated children go on to hold onto that lie into adulthood and pass it on. It's child abuse and these concepts need to have their teeth kicked out! I think as ex believers we have a duty to to the kicking so put on your fucking steel caps and let's go!! It's time, indeed. These concepts of hell and heaven need to die once and for all. How dare these people teach such terrible and cruel concepts to our chlidren? And we were once children and many of us were taught this crap during those younger and vulnerable years. It's time to stop it or for the Christians to defend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yeah those evil Hindus had it coming tho! I imagine the conversation might go something like: God: yes my child who I so lovingly created in my image and knew before the beginning of the world Hindu: where am I? God: you died of hunger my child but alas eternal life awaits thou Hindu: oh life was so hard on the streets of Mumbai, I had to beg for food, sleep under corrugated iron, had leprosy, my children died of disease, my wife was murdered, and all through this I still found the human spirit of compassion and helped those around me, I even washed a widows clothes in the shitty river as she was unable to due to her disability and her children called me dad cause I loved them like my own. Thankfully that's all over. God: my son you suffered in a world that I made with my own hands, I saw to it that you were born into poverty and allowed you to have diseases to bring you to the place of humility that would lead you to accept the hope of my son who you never heard of. Hindu:WTF??? God: it said in the book of Romans no man is without excuse Hindu: but I can't read AND what book are you talking about? God: Look I got a lot of you guys to get through so just accept your fate Hindu: what fate? God: an eternity in a lake of fire, it's only fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 jesus died on the cross so that hindus could burn in the fiery lake. Heh, guessing this one was for me, Prof. This comment expresses my own thoughts quite succinctly. Let's put ourselves in a Christian paradigm for a moment, here. Before Jesus, people were saved by faith that the Creator, as they understood him, would somehow redeem them from the sin of which they knew they were guilty. So perhaps the Children of Israel were at an advantage since they possessed the faith of Abraham and the messianic prophecies that came with it. But at least those outside of God's chosen race had a chance in hell (so to speak) of being saved by having some vague belief in the holiness of the Creator and the sinfulness of man, along with a belief that this God could save them through external, imputed righteousness. Along comes Jesus to die on the cross, and all of this changes. Now you have to abandon whatever religion your culture practices, believe in a story about a western European man, and convert to his western faith in order to be saved from eternal hell. Working within that paradigm, the day Jesus died on the cross is the day God condemned the vast majority of mankind to eternal conscious torment. May Jesus the false Christ rot in hell with no one to accompany him. Jesus is a Jewish blasphemer who pretended to the throne of God and who should have been stoned by his own countrymen before the Romans had a chance to carry out the just sentence of death on this most wicked and depraved teacher of immorality. OF, I think you've made an excellent moral case against the doctrine of hell. Sadly I doubt any Christians will come here and make an intelligent defense of the doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Most Christian dogma is morally and/or intellectually bankrupt. This is simple to explain and understand. The morals and expected behaviors coming from the Abrahamic religions are based on human societies living two to four thousand years ago, and in some cases even longer ago. Since then, human societies have changed and, for the most part, have evolved higher levels of morals and behavior. Still, the power of childhood indoctrination and subsequent peer pressure is very strong indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Most Christian dogma is morally and/or intellectually bankrupt. The power of childhood indoctrination and subsequent peer pressure is very strong indeed. Quite right. Though for some of us it managed to first take root in adulthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Most Christian dogma is morally and/or intellectually bankrupt. The power of childhood indoctrination and subsequent peer pressure is very strong indeed. Quite right. Though for some of us it managed to first take root in adulthood. But you were previously indoctrinated as a child, albeit in a different theism. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 25, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Going to link a WLC bit where he talks about the salvation of children. Warning: his excuses would make the concentration camps into guaranteed salvation camps for the 'unsaved' Jewish kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yes Margee, are you a goat? I'm a goat You know what happens to goats Nobody wants goats in Heaven, only sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 But you were previously indoctrinated as a child, albeit in a different theism. Correct? Correct, and I've of course returned to it. Which would probably make me an all the less likely candidate for conversion to Christianity. On the one hand, a non-Christian theist doesn't need to be convinced about the existence of the supernatural. On the other, he has to be pried away from his prior way of life, whereas atheism is merely a lack of religion, and doesn't require an active denial of anything in order for conversion. This is evidenced by the fact that thus far, I'm unable to find anyone on this forum who comes from a remotely similar background to myself. Everyone else here was either raised Christian or atheist. Of course if I'm neglecting anyone, please let me know! I'd certainly be interested to converse with such a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Going to link a WLC bit where he talks about the salvation of children. Warning: his excuses would make the concentration camps into guaranteed salvation camps for the 'unsaved' Jewish kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc Interesting. John Piper has a similar view: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-happens-to-infants-who-die It's interesting when even a staunch, sincere (and in my personal experience, highly intelligent) Reformed Baptist can't stomach his own doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 25, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Going to link a WLC bit where he talks about the salvation of children. Warning: his excuses would make the concentration camps into guaranteed salvation camps for the 'unsaved' Jewish kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc Oh dear...Roz........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 25, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2014 Yes Margee, are you a goat? I'm a goat You know what happens to goats Nobody wants goats in Heaven, only sheep I don't like 'followers' anymore....... weak people........ I'm glad I'm a stubborn goat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The sad part about all the babies that will burn for eternity is the scriptures that were preached at us constantly that the prostitutes and murderers will get to heaven before we do if we continue to sit on the 'lukewarm fence'. He'd spew us out of his mouth is what they told us. And then they would preach on the 'grace' of the lord. Boy, oh Boy...you talk about putting fear into people??? What a mind fuck......sure did to my head.....Fuckers.......... Going to link a WLC bit where he talks about the salvation of children. Warning: his excuses would make the concentration camps into guaranteed salvation camps for the 'unsaved' Jewish kids. Can we have a show of hands amongst Christians. You are proponents of so called selfless love right? Would you, given the opportunity, offer up your own salvation and take the place of somebody bound for hell if you knew they were a better person? Hypothetically of course. Would you? Surely Gods spirit in you says yes! If not you gotta ask questions, wwjd? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 and yet, christian always saying that gospel is a good news what kind of good news that makes people so easily go to hell and so hard for people to go to heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Following on what afireinside said, it occurred to me even before I left Christianity that the fundamental message most Christian evangelists present is selfish: YOU don't want to end up in hell, YOU want heaven, so you'd better get saved. So much for agape love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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