Would You Do It

[Roz]

From the "god is a liar" thread, I've gotten the hint that this question might be taboo, but since this is the lion's den I thought I'd ask anyways.

I don't want to detract from that thread because there's a lot of good discussion there, and my question is really not pertinent there.

 

I've been reading all over ex-c about "god did this and that" and the theists and atheists both skirt around this part of the equation.

"Would you do as god commanded?" 

 

I think it's relevant to think about it, because it brings the human self into the picture.  God needed humans to commit unspeakable atrocities, he needed willing participation in the slaughter of living beings.

 

We all know what god ordered, he's the commander-in-chief.  Would you, Christian, do as he said?  "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god, and the word was god."  "I and my father are one."  We all know the concept of the trinity, 3-in-1, so the jesus in the new testament would, at least, have knowledge about the father's intent and command back in the old testament, and at worst gave the order himself.  Christians would gladly saw that "we follow the new testament, the new covenant" but they immediately forget that to have a complete picture of their jesus, one would have to take the OT into account as well.

 

This point has racked my brain for years, I really did feel like I was part of god's SS.  I have the uniform, the armor of god, but the atrocities committed in the OT under his orders literally made me sick.

 

So Christians, I know you want to duck this issue, and sweep it under the rug with endless repititions of 'god is good god is good,' but I pose this question to you.

 

Would you:

1.  Take slaves from the nations around you as your permanent posessions

2.  Inspect female captives for proof of virginity, killing the non-virgins and then taking the virgins as your wives without their consent

3.  Kill young boys with your spears and swords

4.  Kill the defenseless elderly

5.  Kill your own relatives if ordered

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6. Dash infants against rocks?

[florduh]

That crap was written by barbarians a long time ago. Those acts which seem so heinous to us today were not as out of place in that culture. Modern believers would likely opt to be rebellious if commanded to do such things. There are new tests of faith to match our times, though, such as voting a straight Republican ticket and kicking any gay offspring out of your house.

[Guest afireinside]

6. Dash infants against rocks?

Greater works than these ye shall do

[Roz]

Right, I get what you said there Florduh.  But god is eternal and never changing, he's the alpha and omega, and when Christians loudly proclaim 'objective morality' they point to their unchanging lawgiver from on high.

 

It was a question I asked myself, and the only answer I could give was 'no I couldn't.'  Just like 'no, I can't hate on gays, I can't vote bible in the voting booth.'

[Roz]

I suspect I'll get no Christian replies to this, because the Christians I've that I've asked this to brushed it off as well.

 

It's a relevant question in my opinion.

If jesus and Christianity were true, then what is jesus trying to set up for us?  A kingdom.  A government.  He would be the king of kings.

I think it's valid to ask politicians the hard questions they don't want asked.  If he's all good, then all of that barbarism could be explained away.  Why not explain it then. 

[Guest afireinside]

Right, I get what you said there Florduh. But god is eternal and never changing, he's the alpha and omega, and when Christians loudly proclaim 'objective morality' they point to their unchanging lawgiver from on high.

 

It was a question I asked myself, and the only answer I could give was 'no I couldn't.' Just like 'no, I can't hate on gays, I can't vote bible in the voting booth.'

Yes Roz hard to accept God as never changing and outside of time when just a few days ago(in his time scale) he was a bad ass, maybe he converted to Buddhism and hasn't told anyone yet

[Kris]

I don't even like to kill bugs!! So, I don't suppose I would obey a god that sanctions me killing men, women and children. Oh, and animals for sacrifices!!! Well, actually god told us we were not supposed to kill per the 10 commandments--- yet turns around and tells us to go ahead and kill shortly thereafter. That just shows how messed up these Words of God are!!

[Vigile]

The unfortunate reality is, not necessarily what you personally would do, but what most people would do.  And, history has not been kind here.  It's pretty clear that the average person will just follow orders and carry out the worst atrocities we humans can imagine. 

 

We may like to pretend that there was something spectacularly evil about the Germans or the Soviets, but in fact there wasn't -- the British were just as bad or even worse, for instance.  They were just regular people vulnerable to the same pressures and instincts that the majority of us are. 

 

Given the right set of circumstances, I'd venture to guess that all but about 10% would just go along with the crowd and not even hesitate to do every form of evil.  Those who do so, would quite easily justify -- or have justified for them via simplistic platitudes -- why they are righteous to do so and then others would suffer at their hands because they were 'deserving' of it or because some other higher purpose demanded it. 

 

This may seem cynical, but again, history has played this out over and over again.  It's fairly well established fact about what humans are capable. 

[Roz]

Below is a video (I've already linked it once before, but I think it needs to be re-linked) of William Lane Craig, prominent Christian apologist, discussing this very issue.

 

"The death of these children meant their salvation.  They were recipients of an infinite good as a result of their earthly phase of life being terminated."

--So then, Craig, would YOU, if you were living at that time, take your sword and help usher these children to heaven?

 

"God had morally sufficient reasons for issuing such an order." 

What were the reasons?

1.  Canaanites were due for judgment

2.  By issuing so harsh an object lesson to Israel, by using them as his instruments for this, god was showing Israel how to be a holy people, set apart from these reprobate Canaanites. 

3.  It was a way to save Israel and bring about the coming of himself as jesus

--Is there anyone here who thinks that these reasons are sufficient to justify the execution of the helpless?

 

Why do I keep hammering this?  One reason is because I've heard preachers go on and on about how I should be like Paul, like courageous Joshua, like the Apostles.  Not fearing death but doing the 'will of god.'  Well, this is god's will.  Are you now saying it's not a fair comparison?  Thank the metaphorical ham and cheese sandwich for a forum which to pose this question in.

 

WLC vid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc

[RipVanWinkle]

I have a friend who was a Green Beret and was assigned to Viet Nam during the most intense period. He said that when you are in war, in order to survive you have to forget everything you ever learned about morality and right and wrong. I hope I would not do any of the horrible things god did in the OT, but how do I know until I am placed in the situation? War is absolute hell. Who knows how I would change?  bill

[Guest end3]

That crap was written by barbarians a long time ago. Those acts which seem so heinous to us today were not as out of place in that culture. Modern believers would likely opt to be rebellious if commanded to do such things. There are new tests of faith to match our times, though, such as voting a straight Republican ticket and kicking any gay offspring out of your house.

Thanks, whew, I thought I was going to have to answer for myself. Dems don't give me a reason to test my faith.

 

Here's an ignorant question. Some cultures are moving towards pro gay atm. Why was there ever a dying out of gay culture or was there?

[Roz]

Bill, war's an ugly situation I agree with you, but if we have to compare the OT with modern war, it would be like the president declaring to the troops: "kill infants, kill the elderly, check the females for signs of virginity, kill the non-virgin women, you may keep the virgin girls for yourselves."

 

It was a direct command from unchanging god, and as footsoldiers, christians living in that time would've had to follow them.

[Roz]

 

That crap was written by barbarians a long time ago. Those acts which seem so heinous to us today were not as out of place in that culture. Modern believers would likely opt to be rebellious if commanded to do such things. There are new tests of faith to match our times, though, such as voting a straight Republican ticket and kicking any gay offspring out of your house.

Thanks, whew, I thought I was going to have to answer for myself. Dems don't give me a reason to test my faith.

 

Here's an ignorant question. Some cultures are moving towards pro gay atm. Why was there ever a dying out of gay culture or was there?

 

 

It's your god.  He ordered them.  The fact that christians today like to bury things like this as 'that time and that context' is bullshit. 

 

How do you square omniscient, omnibenevolent god with these orders?

 

Your ducking the issue does not mean it's irrelevant.  Your god's morality is unchanging, that's how christians get objective morality.  It's the inerrant deity that 1/3 of the world worships. 

[Guest end3]

Eh, Roz, did I not answer your question in the other thread?

[Roz]

How do you square omniscient, omnibenevolent god with these orders?

 

EDIT:  moreover, what would you do when you're then slated for death because you did not follow your god?

[florduh]

 

Here's an ignorant question. Some cultures are moving towards pro gay atm. Why was there ever a dying out of gay culture or was there? 

 

 

Here's the historical skinny on homo stuff:  http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html

[WarriorPoet]

Below is a video (I've already linked it once before, but I think it needs to be re-linked) of William Lane Craig, prominent Christian apologist, discussing this very issue.

 

"The death of these children meant their salvation.  They were recipients of an infinite good as a result of their earthly phase of life being terminated."

--So then, Craig, would YOU, if you were living at that time, take your sword and help usher these children to heaven?

 

"God had morally sufficient reasons for issuing such an order." 

What were the reasons?

1.  Canaanites were due for judgment

2.  By issuing so harsh an object lesson to Israel, by using them as his instruments for this, god was showing Israel how to be a holy people, set apart from these reprobate Canaanites. 

3.  It was a way to save Israel and bring about the coming of himself as jesus

--Is there anyone here who thinks that these reasons are sufficient to justify the execution of the helpless?

 

Why do I keep hammering this?  One reason is because I've heard preachers go on and on about how I should be like Paul, like courageous Joshua, like the Apostles.  Not fearing death but doing the 'will of god.'  Well, this is god's will.  Are you now saying it's not a fair comparison?  Thank the metaphorical ham and cheese sandwich for a forum which to pose this question in.

 

WLC vid here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc

Didn't Jesus and Paul both say that we must submit to our rulers on earth because god had set them in place over us?  But here, this never-changing god ordered the genocide of these people.  Most of whom were presumably good and law abiding citizens according to the laws of their various monarchs.  Maybe the israelites moving in and taking over by means of a military coup would have been less objectionable.  Then they would have been free to institute their own laws and customs while sparing the lives of most of the inhabitants of Canaan.  The story of the conquest of Canaan shows an example of people being slaughtered for doing exactly one of the things that god commanded in the new testament.

[MerryG]

 

That crap was written by barbarians a long time ago. Those acts which seem so heinous to us today were not as out of place in that culture. Modern believers would likely opt to be rebellious if commanded to do such things. There are new tests of faith to match our times, though, such as voting a straight Republican ticket and kicking any gay offspring out of your house.

Thanks, whew, I thought I was going to have to answer for myself. 

 

 

So, End3, are you saying that if your eternal, unchanging, and all-just god ordered you to kill your child, rape a woman, or participate in a genocide, you would NOT do it?

[Guest afireinside]

Abraham was an asshole not a hero, who'd sacrifice their own son to follow God?, isn't it enough to say no I'm not going to trade morality or love for obedience?

[MerryG]

Abraham was an asshole not a hero, who'd sacrifice their own son to follow God?, isn't it enough to say no I'm not going to trade morality or love for obedience?

 

Totally agreed.

 

Of course, the Abraham story still gets told with so much admiration because god -- good guy that he is! (ptooey) -- spares Isaac precisely because Abraham was so obedient. Ha ha! Just a test, you know.

 

But what (tiny) percentage of churchgoers ever hear the story of Jephthah, who actually (at least in the story) did sacrifice his child to the &^%$##! glory of god? Nooooo. That one, they don't talk about in Sunday School. Abraham gets all the good press because, see, if you're just willing to murder for god, god will step in before you slash your kid's throat out or dump his bloody guts on the altar. God or one of his angels will miraculously pop into the scene and say, "Hey, just kidding!"

 

Now genocide against strangers, especially ones you don't like (or whose land you want or whatever) ... now of course that's always okey dokey.

[Guest end3]

 

Abraham was an asshole not a hero, who'd sacrifice their own son to follow God?, isn't it enough to say no I'm not going to trade morality or love for obedience?

 

Totally agreed.

 

Of course, the Abraham story still gets told with so much admiration because god -- good guy that he is! (ptooey) -- spares Isaac precisely because Abraham was so obedient. Ha ha! Just a test, you know.

 

But what (tiny) percentage of churchgoers ever hear the story of Jephthah, who actually (at least in the story) did sacrifice his child to the &^%$##! glory of god? Nooooo. That one, they don't talk about in Sunday School. Abraham gets all the good press because, see, if you're just willing to murder for god, god will step in before you slash your kid's throat out or dump his bloody guts on the altar. God or one of his angels will miraculously pop into the scene and say, "Hey, just kidding!"

 

Now genocide against strangers, especially ones you don't like (or whose land you want or whatever) ... now of course that's always okey dokey.

 

You wouldn't kill these men Merry?

 

http://shoebat.com/2014/03/03/muslims-force-christian-convert-islam-brutally-behead/

[Roz]

Numbers 31:17-18

 

¹⁷ Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, ¹⁸ but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

Your god's orders.  Can you please say what you would do?

 

PS:  the context here is that the battle is already won.  The men of war are all dead.  These are defenseless captives. 

[Guest afireinside]

Yes shows the danger of following voices in your head or even more dangerous following the words inspired by the voices in people's heads

[RipVanWinkle]

"Bill, war's an ugly situation I agree with you, but if we have to compare the OT with modern war, it would be like the president declaring to the troops: 'kill infants, kill the elderly, check the females for signs of virginity, kill the non-virgin women, you may keep the virgin girls for yourselves.'"  Roz

 

Roz: That is the effect, I'm sorry to say, of our president ordering war in modern times, especially if it involves bombing. Every war in which planes drop bombs on population centers causes unconscionable damage to civilians, e.g., men. women, children, fetuses, not to mention all kinds of animals. We (society) just pretend ignorance, look the other way or yell, "USA, USA, USA', depending on our sophistication. That's what the young folks were saying in their war protests of the 60's.

 

God's genocides were not justified 3,000 years ago any more than they would be today, irrespective of how barbaric the times, were they?  How could the peoples' barbarism justify god's ordering the massacre of whole cultures? Ridiculous, right?   bill