Would You Do It

[sdelsolray]

From the "god is a liar" thread, I've gotten the hint that this question might be taboo, but since this is the lion's den I thought I'd ask anyways.

I don't want to detract from that thread because there's a lot of good discussion there, and my question is really not pertinent there.

 

I've been reading all over ex-c about "god did this and that" and the theists and atheists both skirt around this part of the equation.

"Would you do as god commanded?" 

 

I think it's relevant to think about it, because it brings the human self into the picture.  God needed humans to commit unspeakable atrocities, he needed willing participation in the slaughter of living beings.

 

We all know what god ordered, he's the commander-in-chief.  Would you, Christian, do as he said?  "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god, and the word was god."  "I and my father are one."  We all know the concept of the trinity, 3-in-1, so the jesus in the new testament would, at least, have knowledge about the father's intent and command back in the old testament, and at worst gave the order himself.  Christians would gladly saw that "we follow the new testament, the new covenant" but they immediately forget that to have a complete picture of their jesus, one would have to take the OT into account as well.

 

This point has racked my brain for years, I really did feel like I was part of god's SS.  I have the uniform, the armor of god, but the atrocities committed in the OT under his orders literally made me sick.

 

So Christians, I know you want to duck this issue, and sweep it under the rug with endless repititions of 'god is good god is good,' but I pose this question to you.

 

Would you:

1.  Take slaves from the nations around you as your permanent posessions

2.  Inspect female captives for proof of virginity, killing the non-virgins and then taking the virgins as your wives without their consent

3.  Kill young boys with your spears and swords

4.  Kill the defenseless elderly

5.  Kill your own relatives if ordered

I realize you have asked Christians, i.e., those that believe in the existence of their particular sky fairies, to answer.

 

From a non-beleiver's standpoint, the answer is quite simple.  Any "commands" I receive are either from (i) other humans or (ii) my own consciousness/brain.  Whether I do as commanded would depend on many things, including, but not limited to, my own morals and ethics.  Simple as pie.

[Roz]

I realize you have asked Christians, i.e., those that believe in the existence of their particular sky fairies, to answer.

 

From a non-beleiver's standpoint, the answer is quite simple.  Any "commands" I receive are either from (i) other humans or (ii) my own consciousness/brain.  Whether I do as commanded would depend on many things, including, but not limited to, my own morals and ethics.  Simple as pie.

 

A-F'ing-men

[Guest afireinside]

What do Christians believe god would say when these "men of god" come before him in judgement? We'll done good and faithful servant?

 

Is obedience rewarded above morals, ethics and love?

[Guest afireinside]

Christianity should have no issues with fundamentalist Islamic terrorism then if they soberly assess their own views of not questioning obedience to god above the lives of others. Terrorists are often just following their god, why is it acceptable in the Torah but not ok in defense of other religious fanaticism?

[Guest afireinside]

Maybe I phrased that last post wrong sorry- I knew what I meant but it's hard to follow

[Overcame Faith]

When I was a Christian, I thought about this issue. My answer then was, no, I would not commit any of those atrocities even if I thought God was commanding me to do it.

 

I had several reasons for my conclusion. The first reason was that I did not believe God would ask such a thing of me or anyone else. Second, I could never know if it was actually God asking it. It could be that I was losing my mind or Satan was trying to fool me. Third, sure the OT portrayed God as demanding people to do such things, but that was in a different historical context not present today. Fourth, Jesus asked his followers to do some tough things like to hate one's family, but never to kill someone. Even when Peter cut off the servant's ear in Gethsemane, Jesus stopped him and healed the wound Peter inflicted. Fifth, and this was a tough one for me as a Christian, even though God is said to be unchanging, he was different in the NT than as portrayed in the OT. Sixth, and this one is related to the issue of whether I thought God was asking me to kill a loved one, I reasoned that the death of Jesus represented the last time God would require one to take the life of a loved one.

 

Finally, I decided then, particularly with killing a loved one, even if I thought I was absolutely sure it was God asking me to do it, I would simply disobey. That would be one hell of a cruel God to ask that. I would take my chances on judgment day. Another influencing factor on this one is that I was thinking of my dear child. I wondered what I would have said to him if he asked me if I would have done as Abraham was asked to do to Isaac. I wanted to be able to look him in the eyes and assure him that even God could not convince me to harm him.

 

Hmm, I think I can see some of the early seeds of my deconversion in what I thought about so many years ago while I was still a Christian.

[MerryG]

 

 

Abraham was an asshole not a hero, who'd sacrifice their own son to follow God?, isn't it enough to say no I'm not going to trade morality or love for obedience?

 

Totally agreed.

 

Of course, the Abraham story still gets told with so much admiration because god -- good guy that he is! (ptooey) -- spares Isaac precisely because Abraham was so obedient. Ha ha! Just a test, you know.

 

But what (tiny) percentage of churchgoers ever hear the story of Jephthah, who actually (at least in the story) did sacrifice his child to the &^%$##! glory of god? Nooooo. That one, they don't talk about in Sunday School. Abraham gets all the good press because, see, if you're just willing to murder for god, god will step in before you slash your kid's throat out or dump his bloody guts on the altar. God or one of his angels will miraculously pop into the scene and say, "Hey, just kidding!"

 

Now genocide against strangers, especially ones you don't like (or whose land you want or whatever) ... now of course that's always okey dokey.

 

You wouldn't kill these men Merry?

 

http://shoebat.com/2014/03/03/muslims-force-christian-convert-islam-brutally-behead/

 

 

There are certainly people I'd kill in defense of the innocent, End3. But that wasn't the subject. The subject was killing ones own children "for god" or committing genocide against innocent men, women, and children "on the orders of god." And once again, you simply evaded it.

 

Besides, doesn't it strike you that those Muslims who allegedly beheaded that christian are behaving exactly like "god's chosen people" of the OT -- killing because they think it's what god wants?

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Abraham was an asshole not a hero, who'd sacrifice their own son to follow God?, isn't it enough to say no I'm not going to trade morality or love for obedience?

 

Totally agreed.

 

Of course, the Abraham story still gets told with so much admiration because god -- good guy that he is! (ptooey) -- spares Isaac precisely because Abraham was so obedient. Ha ha! Just a test, you know.

 

But what (tiny) percentage of churchgoers ever hear the story of Jephthah, who actually (at least in the story) did sacrifice his child to the &^%$##! glory of god? Nooooo. That one, they don't talk about in Sunday School. Abraham gets all the good press because, see, if you're just willing to murder for god, god will step in before you slash your kid's throat out or dump his bloody guts on the altar. God or one of his angels will miraculously pop into the scene and say, "Hey, just kidding!"

 

Now genocide against strangers, especially ones you don't like (or whose land you want or whatever) ... now of course that's always okey dokey.

 

You wouldn't kill these men Merry?

 

http://shoebat.com/2014/03/03/muslims-force-christian-convert-islam-brutally-behead/

 

 

There are certainly people I'd kill in defense of the innocent, End3. But that wasn't the subject. The subject was killing ones own children "for god" or committing genocide against innocent men, women, and children "on the orders of god." And once again, you simply evaded it.

 

Besides, doesn't it strike you that those Muslims who allegedly beheaded that christian are behaving exactly like "god's chosen people" of the OT -- killing because they think it's what god wants?

 

Didn't evade it....."especially ones you don't like (or whose land you want or whatever)".....don't like for "whatever".

 

How do you decide innocent Merry??????

[pratt]

if someone is sure that it is god's voice, he will do it,,,,, look at the jihads, or child brides even in today's culture,,,

 

but as for me and myself, i am more afraid of prison rape than hell

[Roz]

Once again, your god you worship has decided that male children should die, non virgin women should die, and virgin girls would be kept for the Israelites.

 

Your god dictated it.  Moving the goalposts = typical tactic.

[seven77]

I was never sold on the horrors of the OT. Some persons I know in the church say that God did these things to show his love...or they say "his ways are not our ways".

 

I've come to the conclusion that believers will never have a straight answer to give to this question because if they did, they would have to admit that God is a monster. God the monster, loves them so much! They've been praying to a monster, asking the monster for forgiveness! What good is a monster God? Answer: None at all. If God isn't perfectly good, then he is hardly fit to be called a God.

 

The whole system crumbles once one realizes just how horrible OT God really is. Even more so once you realize that Jesus was no better than OT God and probably a hell of a lot worse since he was supposedly one of us.

[Guest]

The unfortunate reality is, not necessarily what you personally would do, but what most people would do.  And, history has not been kind here.  It's pretty clear that the average person will just follow orders and carry out the worst atrocities we humans can imagine. 

 

We may like to pretend that there was something spectacularly evil about the Germans or the Soviets, but in fact there wasn't -- the British were just as bad or even worse, for instance.  They were just regular people vulnerable to the same pressures and instincts that the majority of us are. 

 

Given the right set of circumstances, I'd venture to guess that all but about 10% would just go along with the crowd and not even hesitate to do every form of evil.  Those who do so, would quite easily justify -- or have justified for them via simplistic platitudes -- why they are righteous to do so and then others would suffer at their hands because they were 'deserving' of it or because some other higher purpose demanded it. 

 

This may seem cynical, but again, history has played this out over and over again.  It's fairly well established fact about what humans are capable. 

 

I forget the name of the book, but I read something a few years ago that deeply examined the general German civilian actions and attitudes during WWII.  A study was done at some point that concluded that some 90% of any human population, if a gun was held to their head and told to kill an innocent person lest they get shot in the head themselves, 90% of people would kill that innocent person to save themselves.  They also found people were also able to torture and turn up the power on electro shock treatments if an authority figure told them it was OK to do so, despite agonizing screams coming from the other room.

 

It still scares me to think how thin the veneer of "civilization" really is...

[MerryG]

How do you decide innocent Merry??????

 

 

Some examples:

 

A child tied up by a father who intends to kill him is an innocent party in an act of premeditated violence.

 

A young woman whose father vows to sacrifice her to his god is an innocent party, ditto.

 

A baby whose head is smashed against a rock by an aggressor, ditto.

 

A young woman kidnapped, ditto.

 

Women, children, and other non-combattants slaughtered by an army, ditto.

 

In general, anyone who is the victim of an unprovoked attack by an aggressor. "Innocent" when it comes to acts of aggressive violence doesn't mean "a person who's never done anything wrong." It means someone who is victimized by another.

 

I agree that there are circumstances where it can be hard to tell who's aggressor and who's victim, but those circumstances are rare. Certainly when it comes to murdering (or threatening to murder) children, kidnapping anybody, or slaughtering non-combattants in war, the victims are always innocents -- even if your god thinks they're just one more heap of offensive trash.

[bornagainathiest]

Some questions for End3.

 

1.

Is your defense of God based on His total inability to do evil and His total inability to command evil to be done? 

 

2.

Since God cannot command any evil to be done, the genocides done in His name must therefore be GOOD. Y/N?

 

3

If God orders the genocide of entire races, that is GOOD, because He's God.  Y/N?

 

4.

If Hitler orders the genocide of entire races, that is EVIL, because he's not God.  Y/N?

 

5.

Will you ever come to accept that God knows Evil, has ordered EVIL and so can do EVIL?  Y/N?

 

6.

In defending the 'GOOD' God of the Bible, you are defending the indefensible, because God knows and does EVIL?  Y/N?

 

7.

Scripture says God knows, creates and does EVIL (moral and ethical EVIL, not disaster or calamity), which causes suffering. 

Is this suffering therefore GOOD because it comes from God or is it what the Bible says it is... EVIL?

.

.

.

Please do me the courtesy of answering at least one of these questions within the next 72 hours End.

That should give you enough time to think about at least one of them. 

If you want to answer more, please go for it.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

[Guest end3]

Here's the deal BAA. I have faith that God can see the beginning and end, and is qualified to judge. We, in our limited perspective, have difficulty. With that, He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end. Pretty much wraps up my thoughts on this.

 

thanks,

[Roz]

 

 

With that, he tells us to do good

 

If he's the same yesterday, today, and forever (and as a Christian, that also must be held true) then his orders for the execution of the defenseless and vaginal inspection of women was good as well.  Still, End3 will not say if he would follow through with that 'good order.'

[TheRedneckProfessor]

He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end. 

The difficulty I see here is that you cannot separate what is genuinely good from a moral and ethical standpoint and what is "good" because god said to do it.

[Guest end3]

 

He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end.

The difficulty I see here is that you cannot separate what is genuinely good from a moral and ethical standpoint and what is "good" because god said to do it.

 

We do the best we can and have faith we are promoting life.

[Guest end3]

 

With that, he tells us to do good

 

If he's the same yesterday, today, and forever (and as a Christian, that also must be held true) then his orders for the execution of the defenseless and vaginal inspection of women was good as well.  Still, End3 will not say if he would follow through with that 'good order.'

 

I'm all about vaginal inspection Roz....and think it's good.

[Roz]

And I like your picking and choosing, not to mention leaving out the part where vaginal inspections for signs of virginity were not consensual.

 

god is good, the bible is infallible, stand up for jesus, soldier of the cross.

[Guest end3]

You have conceptual problems with post 40 Roz? Seriously?

[Roz]

I'm honestly enjoying seeing a Christian squirm, hopefully it'll open someone's eyes. 

I don't think it'll be you, because your post 40 basically says "I don't know what the fuck my god knows, so I'll just be happy and stay ignorant about all the things he ordered."

 

What's worse, it's the typical reaction of Christians I posed this question to.  Why does this matter?  They're on a crusade to evangelize the rest of the world, seeking to supplant human rationality with superstition and one big argument from authority.

[bornagainathiest]

Here's the deal BAA. I have faith that God can see the beginning and end, and is qualified to judge. We, in our limited perspective, have difficulty. With that, He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end. Pretty much wraps up my thoughts on this.

 

thanks,

 

That's fine End.

 

You don't have the answers and you've been open and honest about that.  I commend you for that.  So, as far as I can see then, here's where you are. 

.

.

.

You don't know how to answer questions about the GOOD or EVIL of God's commands, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to answer questions about God's morality, but you have faith in him anyway.

You don't know if God is moral, amoral or immoral, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know why you have faith in him, but you have faith in Him, anyway.

You don't know how you have faith in Him, but you have faith in Him, anyway.

You don't know why you believe in God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what you believe about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't what you should believe about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to articulate any why's, what's or wherefore's about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what constitutes proper evidence for His existence and what doesn't, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's mind, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's character, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's purposes, but you have faith in him anyway.

You don't know how to describe your relationship with God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what, 'having a personal relationship with God' means, but you have faith in Him anyway.

 

You don't know what kind of faith you should have in Him, but whatever that faith is, you have faith that you should have some kind of faith in Him anyway.

 

We can ask you any question and present any evidence and shoot down any argument and cite any source and point out any Biblical atrocities and any scriptural genocides and any OT abuses of women and children, done in God's name, and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can show you all the OT references which clearly say that God knows, creates, orders and carries out EVIL and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can compare the genocide-ordering God of the OT to genocide-ordering humans like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Pohl Pot and Mao Tse Tung and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can demonstrate from scripture itself that the Hellfire-and-Damnation God of the NT is needlessly sadistic, unthinkable cruel and morally unfit to judge anyone and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

And if we prick your conscience about the billions of 'innocent' babies that God consigns to an endless, screaming, shrieking, thrashing torment in Hell, you'll probably still have faith in Him anyway.

 

Whatever we do, whatever we say, whatever we write, no matter how shocking or distressing or upsetting, you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

.

.

.

Please correct anything I've got wrong, End.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Roz]

I think it's really telling, that when a Christian is preaching about 'god's goodness' and 'his loving plan for mankind,' they want their listeners to know the particulars and the details of the plan of salvation.

 

When they're asked about the sexual crimes and mass executions prescribed by the same god, and whether they'll participate in it because god ordered it, they'll say "I don't know what my god knows, but I'll follow him and do his will.  god is good."

 

That's where this conversation led.

[rach]

I like to think that if God appeared to me and demanded me to commit some atrocity or other, as he's been known to do in the "holy" scripture, that I would wave him the middle finger, refuse the order, and go write a book about what a monster he is so the whole world can know.  But imagine this enormously powerful god says to me "if you refuse to commit this or that actrocity, I'll burn you in hell forever."  Or maybe he threatens to burn some third party in hell.  What am I even supposed to do then!  I guess all I can do is make a war party and try to kill god.  But I will never willingly do any dirty work for god.  If he wants to get his hands dirty let him do it himself.  Maybe the only reason he is god, is because we the people have given him too much power over us.