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Goodbye Jesus

Would You Do It


Roz

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He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end.

The difficulty I see here is that you cannot separate what is genuinely good from a moral and ethical standpoint and what is "good" because god said to do it.

 

We do the best we can and have faith we are promoting life.

 

Promoting life is far too important to trust in faith alone.  I need to know that my actions will have a creative force (or at least not a destructive force) in impacting others.

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He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end.

The difficulty I see here is that you cannot separate what is genuinely good from a moral and ethical standpoint and what is "good" because god said to do it.

 

We do the best we can and have faith we are promoting life.

 

Promoting life is far too important to trust in faith alone.  I need to know that my actions will have a creative force (or at least not a destructive force) in impacting others.

 

You can't. You can try desperately hard, but you can't absolutely promote life. I am gathering that the necessity to do so pushes us to extremes. Not saying an extensive education is a bad thing, just it can have it's own set of faults.

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Guest afireinside

If a current day German found some lost writings of Adolph Hitler which we penned in his last days before his death saying I'm now a man of love, love the Jews, love the allied forces, forget Mein Kampf this book supersedes it and fulfills it at the same time, forget the gas chambers and death camps etc would it be right to become a fully fledged Nazi and say oh well the atrocities committed pre '45 were somehow necessary but Hitlers actually not the deranged man he was, see here he's saying he's a lover of humanity etc.

 

If I followed the new teachings of Hitler can I then say he's a good man and his ways are ways of truth, just forget what happened before this book?

 

Would that make being a modern day Nazi a good thing?

 

NO

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Here's the deal BAA. I have faith that God can see the beginning and end, and is qualified to judge. We, in our limited perspective, have difficulty. With that, He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end. Pretty much wraps up my thoughts on this.

 

thanks,

 

That's fine End.

 

You don't have the answers and you've been open and honest about that.  I commend you for that.  So, as far as I can see then, here's where you are. 

.

.

.

You don't know how to answer questions about the GOOD or EVIL of God's commands, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to answer questions about God's morality, but you have faith in him anyway.

You don't know if God is moral, amoral or immoral, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know why you have faith in him, but you have faith in Him, anyway.

You don't know how you have faith in Him, but you have faith in Him, anyway.

You don't know why you believe in God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what you believe about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't what you should believe about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to articulate any why's, what's or wherefore's about God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what constitutes proper evidence for His existence and what doesn't, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's mind, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's character, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know how to gain a better understanding of God's purposes, but you have faith in him anyway.

You don't know how to describe your relationship with God, but you have faith in Him anyway.

You don't know what, 'having a personal relationship with God' means, but you have faith in Him anyway.

 

You don't know what kind of faith you should have in Him, but whatever that faith is, you have faith that you should have some kind of faith in Him anyway.

 

We can ask you any question and present any evidence and shoot down any argument and cite any source and point out any Biblical atrocities and any scriptural genocides and any OT abuses of women and children, done in God's name, and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can show you all the OT references which clearly say that God knows, creates, orders and carries out EVIL and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can compare the genocide-ordering God of the OT to genocide-ordering humans like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Pohl Pot and Mao Tse Tung and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

We can demonstrate from scripture itself that the Hellfire-and-Damnation God of the NT is needlessly sadistic, unthinkable cruel and morally unfit to judge anyone and you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

 

And if we prick your conscience about the billions of 'innocent' babies that God consigns to an endless, screaming, shrieking, thrashing torment in Hell, you'll probably still have faith in Him anyway.

 

Whatever we do, whatever we say, whatever we write, no matter how shocking or distressing or upsetting, you'll still have faith in Him anyway.

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Please correct anything I've got wrong, End.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

That's the power of brainswashing.

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You can't. You can try desperately hard, but you can't absolutely promote life.

 

If we all promoted life, we'd all be up in arms over America being at war or the fact that we use products made from child labor or other such atrocities. We allow atrocities to occur because we like our standard of living. So that's a good point you made.

 

But to say that God is perfect in everything he does just because I can't see the eternal picture is wanting. "God is perfect" is a meme that's been around since man first created religious myths and has no merit. If God did exist we would really have no way of knowing if he really knew the big picture at all (unless we were all-knowing as well). We would most likely have to take someone else's word for it and then continually reconvince ourself that God was perfect even if we saw something happening that indicated he didn't know what he was doing. 

 

To have faith that God sees the big picture and always knows best is really a big leap. Because I only have a limited perspective I could not hope to make such an assumption about something that is supposedly by its very nature, unlimited. :-)

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End,

 

Please note that my last post here ( # 48) was NOT a personal attack on you.

It was strongly-worded and used emotive imagery, but there's no malice or spite involved.

No.  Instead, I'm now of the opinion that you've made the firm decision not to let anything anyone else says or writes change your beliefs in any way.  If this is so and I'm right, that nothing we can write will alter what you believe, then I must ask you one more question.

 

What WOULD change your mind and your faith in God?

 

(Please note that I once put an open question to the members of the Christianforums site, asking this.  "If the mortal remains of Jesus were dug up tomorrow, what would that mean to you?"  One of them gave me a one word answer. ..."Nothing."  There was simply no point in talking any further with him.)

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Now, I sincerely hope that no bad feeling exists between us right now and I also hope there are good reasons why we should carry on talking to each other.

 

It was not my intention to sass you up, ok? 

I just want to see if there's any mileage in me putting further scripture-related questions to you.  If there's nothing that will change what you believe, then I can't see much point in further, Bible-related dialog between us.  You'll just carry on defending what you believe and I'll just carry on as before and we'll just go round and round in circles... as we seem to have done, over and over again, for the last four years or so.

 

Therefore, rather than waste our time could you please let me know what WOULD change your mind and your faith in God?

.

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Thanks,

 

BAA

 

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Listen folks, as much as y'all would wish to bury me in this, what is it you would like me to say? Yes, I don't see these things as consistent with good, love, etc. It is rational that God would have a larger perspective from which to judge humanity....who stays, who goes. Please don't tell me we can't agree with this. As I have stated before, we cast people in prison to essentially rot per a multiple life sentence. Additionally, we do things like prune non-fruit bearing parts of plants routinely.

 

Be glad I am not readily recalling what I am remembering as a study that essentially cites children of a culture to remain in that same mode. Crap I don't remember.

 

Anyhow, it's kind of like a baker or an artist. If I don't like the work, I chunk it. I think it's God right to chunk his artwork if he so desires.

 

Again, these are my views. It's ok to disagree and we still be able to discuss these things. I really appreciate those efforts. You BAA, I very much appreciate your recent efforts and I think things are getting better. Many of you go out of your way to temper your sword. Again, very much appreciated. I like to talk about these things.

 

Thanks again....you too Prof.

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Guest afireinside

It's fine to throw out the bad workmanship but the issue is largely in the claims of God that he knows the beginning and the end in advance as he is outside our domain of time. I think foreknowledge is a big issue. To mess up is one thing but to know you are going to mess up in advance and do it anyway is a bit stupid

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In defense of end, faith is not based on logical arguments. If it were, it would not be faith.

 

My SIL is a perfect example. She chooses to believe, have faith, just like her parents and their parents did. Her daughters are also trying (somewhat less successfully) to carry on the family tradition. She really does know there is no evidence that any of it is actually true, yet she can't give up the false hope and comfort her belief brings to her. Of course she only believes the 'good' parts and ignores or excuses everything else. It's sad, but true for many.

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Screw tempering swords.  The arguments fall or stand on their own merit.  Whenever a Christian, any Christian, seeks to let others know about the love of christ, then they'll have the verses we all know on hand and at the ready.

 

That's their sword of the spirit. 

 

When they retreat as End3 does, with the "god knows more than us," "god has a right to give and take life," they're conveniently leaving out those willing humans who participated in those actions.

Those humans, to quote Bill Maher, did not possess mental powers that we do not have. 

 

When preachers say "be like Joshua, like Paul, like Peter" this is merely doing the same thing, but from the killers' and rapists' perspective. 

 

I don't know End3 from Adam (har har), I don't care who it is that is presenting this "don't talk to me, talk to god" argument from authority that he brought up.  I'm going to press them on it, no matter what it is.

 

End3 predictably spat out the "I don't know but I'll still follow him" answer.  I don't care who said it, it's the arguments that fell on their own swords.

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Again, to reiterate.  There's a human component in god's judgments.  We have a Christian who presented that he did not know the mind of god, but god must have the bigger picture in mind.  Still, that does not answer the question of "Would You Do It."  Would you be the instrument of god in the killing and sexual violations of the Israelites.

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Roz,

 

  Let me attempt an answer.  If the God of the OT were in front of me, I might surely do what he told me to do.  Have never been in that position, so I really don't know what I would do. 

 

My personal experience with what I thought was Jesus was that harming others, is essentially harming Him.

 

How the OT God and Jesus are the same, I have addressed that. 

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That's really honest and chilling at the same time.  I guess the difference with that position and mine is that, when faced by any entity ordering me to kill a child or sexually violate another, I would say "no."  I don't care about the consequences, that's on the entity, not me.

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"You can't. You can try desperately hard, but you can't absolutely promote life."  End3

 

Don't beat up the good with the perfect. You know the bible god is not perfect from his "fruits." That's the test Jesus said to use: "You shall know them

by their fruits."  But the bible god isn't even good, much less perfect.   bill

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I wonder why Jesus appeared to Constantine when he(Jesus) was clearly a proponent of the separation of church and state. Was that another wrong decision by God choosing the wrong man without realising the bloodshed it would lead to?

 

Or did Constantine imagine it?

 

Or did God actually reveal himself to him knowing it was a bad idea?

 

Why the transition from house churches and Christian communities to state religion and power by the sword?

 

Why did he allow this and why was it his plan to endorse a guy who wasn't right for the job?

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Or are all Biblical accounts of God leading actually just guys having episodes and believing God was talking and leading th to do dumb shit then recording this dumb shit in the Bible to glorify the God they imagined?

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He tells us to do good and let Him judge in the end.

The difficulty I see here is that you cannot separate what is genuinely good from a moral and ethical standpoint and what is "good" because god said to do it.

 

We do the best we can and have faith we are promoting life.

 

Promoting life is far too important to trust in faith alone.  I need to know that my actions will have a creative force (or at least not a destructive force) in impacting others.

 

You can't. You can try desperately hard, but you can't absolutely promote life. I am gathering that the necessity to do so pushes us to extremes. Not saying an extensive education is a bad thing, just it can have it's own set of faults.

 

But basing your morality on something as unstable and ever-changing as "faith" is far more disastrous.  There was a time when it was considered "moral" to burn witches at the stake, and all one need do was accuse someone of witchcraft for the sentence to be meted out.  Now we know better; even people of faith know better.  Faith-informed morals simply reflect the constantly changing values of the faithful, or more specifically, those controlling the faithful.  If something is "right", then it is always "right", like defending the weak or taking in the orphan.

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Now we know better; even people of faith know better.

 

Eh, some Christians in Africa are still burning "witches." It takes a while for a faith rooted in the beliefs of ancient barbarians to catch up with more modern mores. Africa and Islam in particular are lagging behind.

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Now we know better; even people of faith know better.

 

Eh, some Christians in Africa are still burning "witches." It takes a while for a faith rooted in the beliefs of ancient barbarians to catch up with more modern mores. Africa and Islam in particular are lagging behind.

 

Good point.  But it also raises the question: Who is more moral, Western christians for not burning witches or African christians for doing so?  The biblical answer is clear:

 

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Ex. 22:18

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Who is more moral, Western christians for not burning witches or African christians for doing so?  The biblical answer is clear:

 

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Ex. 22:18

 

 

Witch burning is a clusterfuck of commandment breaking. (According to the 10 given in Ex. 20)

 

Big 'Un: Ex. 20:13 “You shall not murder." -- Most cases of witch burning, both in the Western Christian past and the African Christian present are actually/probably concealment of the following commandments having been broken by someone. Usually the one(s) leading the charge of "Burn the Witch!!"

 

Ex. 20:16: “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." -- Most cases of witchcraft are leveled against people who are different or those who refuse to bow down to the majority. In old times, having a third nipple was enough to get you burned. Those who made herbal remedies, worked as healers or diviners, and those who lived alone or women who spent too much time with men who weren't leaders of the church/Inquisitors were the first to go to the gallows above the flames.

 

Ex. 20:17: “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.” -- In modern times, I suspect that most cases of witch burning are for this reason. Witch burning happens in areas where poverty is rife. education is lacking and fundamentalist fervor runs unchecked a generation or two after it was first introduced. A good way to dispose those who have things that you want is to accuse them of being a witch. Once they are out of the way, you can take their home, land, children....sky's the limit, really.

 

--------

 

Western Christians can't go around enforcing old tribal laws, killing people willy-nilly. So they settle for psychological and social warfare instead. They kick up a fuss about same sex marriage, abortion, evolution, the 2nd amendment, enforcement of traditional gender roles and whatever else they can be led to feel strongly about. Western Christians view themselves as the elect, those carrying the light, living examples of Matthew 5:14-16.

 

Rest assured, many of them would delight in burning witches, stoning adulterers, and other such things if there were no consequences awaiting them for doing so.

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But basing your morality on something as unstable and ever-changing as "faith" is far more disastrous.  There was a time when it was considered "moral" to burn witches at the stake, and all one need do was accuse someone of witchcraft for the sentence to be meted out.  Now we know better; even people of faith know better.  Faith-informed morals simply reflect the constantly changing values of the faithful, or more specifically, those controlling the faithful.  If something is "right", then it is always "right", like defending the weak or taking in the orphan.

With due respect Prof, I've come to the conclusion that absolute morality or truth may be out there but we are in the dark regardless of the path we select to administer such.....hence the theoretical gap of perfect administration (Christ) and our need to fill the gap to acquire to eat from the tree of life.

 

Btw, I prefer toddler chunking(akin to pun'kin chunkin') over witch burning.

 

WAIT!!!

 

Gay toddler chunking!

 

whew, the Holy Spirit intervened..praise the Lord.

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Western Christians can't go around enforcing old tribal laws, killing people willy-nilly. So they settle for psychological and social warfare instead. They kick up a fuss about same sex marriage, abortion, evolution, the 2nd amendment, enforcement of traditional gender roles and whatever else they can be led to feel strongly about. Western Christians view themselves as the elect, those carrying the light, living examples of Matthew 5:14-16.

 

Rest assured, many of them would delight in burning witches, stoning adulterers, and other such things if there were no consequences awaiting them for doing so.

 

 

A good portion of this thread revealed just that.

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Or are all Biblical accounts of God leading actually just guys having episodes and believing God was talking and leading th to do dumb shit then recording this dumb shit in the Bible to glorify the God they imagined?

^^This sums up what I believe the bible to be.  Thank you, afireinside!  That is a one sentence (one question) summary of the book that killed off any belief in any god that I had left, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Julian Jaynes.

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With due respect Prof, I've come to the conclusion that absolute morality or truth may be out there but we are in the dark regardless of the path we select to administer such.....hence the theoretical gap of perfect administration (Christ) and our need to fill the gap to acquire to eat from the tree of life.

 

But isn't faith what supposedly fills that gap?  And if the gap is the perfect administration of christ, and our goal is to fill it, isn't that pretty much the same as faith-based morality?

 

Or did I misunderstand your point?

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