bleedblue22 Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Hey guys! Totally new here but looking forward to interacting with y'all. I was raised going to Church in a moderate Christian family. Never really had any hardcore indoctrination so sloughing off Christianity has not been an extremely emotionally taxing process. Also, never had too much experience with fundamentalism and when I would come across the occasional fundy, even as a Christian I perceived them to have shut off much of their critical thinking faculties. I apologize to anyone looking for an exciting, emotionally-ridden deconversion story, but mine is pretty cut and dry. My problem with Christianity lies in its doctrines and beliefs than in any traumatic experience with the church. I am quite lucky to have two loving parents who have always encouraged me to think critically (although I wish they would apply that principle more to their own beliefs) and have never forced religion down my throat. I regularly attended church throughout my childhood and even as a child there were some days I was buying it and some days I wasn't. I remember listening to the story about how Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey which fulfilled ages old prophecy and my eight year old mind was thinking "well that doesn't prove anything cuz if he was familiar with the scriptures he knew exactly what to do to easily fulfill it." I was never taught the traditional Christian concept of hell (besides just hearing "bad people" went there) untill I was a teenager. I was pretty horrified to say the least that the simple "crime" of unbelieving could warrant an eternity of conscious torment. Heck, half of things in Bible I had always found hardly believable. I had plenty of non-Christian friends who were great people. Was I supposed to believe they deserved such an awful fate? And to top it off, this horrible "hell" was all in the "plan" of a loving and merciful God. Suffice to say, I knew something was very off. Near the end of high school I began thinking more about philosophical concepts like free will, materialism, dualism, and general questions regarding ultimate meaning and truth in life. As someone who had always been very skeptical of the concept of a God, I began to see the implications (or so I thought) of a worldview without a God. I began to develop a deep existential angst and began feeling depressed as I started to think we probably are just machines made of meat, free will is probably just an illusion, emotions are no more than chemicals reacting in our brain, and ultimately life has no purpose. Looking into religious philosophy, theism started looking very attractive because it allowed for free will, taught that there was an objective meaning to life, and that we are much more than just a material brain. I also became interested in near-death experiences because they seemed to validate a theistic worldview and played on my wishful thinking about a possible escape from a dreary exclusively material world. All this led me to recommit myself to Christianity and I enrolled in a Christian college last year. I wanted to really dive into the intellectual part of faith and theology and I was interested in becoming a Christian Apologist because I wanted others to think about the philosophical problems I grappled with to gain a intellectual appreciation of Christianity rather than a purely emotional one. I also wanted to be super convincing so I could win my non Christian friends over to Christ because I couldn't stand to think of them in Hell. I have taken classes on the New and Old Testaments this year and my views on Christianity have completely changed. Actually reading through the Bible for the first time was a shocking experience. I think I was reading through Joshua about God's commands to exterminate the Canaanites(killing everything that breathed) and throwing my Bible across the room in absolute disgust at this sadistic God character. I was disgusted by nearly everything in the Old Testament and knew that this monster, Yahweh, was merely just an angry, militaristic tribal god dreamed up by people looking to validate their taking of a foreign land and commit genocide on its inhabitants. After reading things like the Epic of Gilgamesh, Enuma Elish, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, I was absolutely convinced Genesis was just a collection of myths and had no factual basis in reality. Also, Exodus went out the window when I looked into the archaeology only to find there is absolutely no record of hundreds of thousands of Israelites trekking through the Sinai desert or even being enslaved in Egypt at all. So I was sure the Bible was not inerrant but realized that I didn't have to believe that it was to be a Christian. Perhaps I could just follow Jesus teachings in the gospels and believe in the ressurection and I would be saved. Well looking into the New Testament, I was shocked to find out the gospels were written a whole generation after Jesus lived, contradicted eachother on many different matters, and probably weren't written by any eyewitnesses. Plus certain verses in today's Bibles couldn't even be found in the earliest manuscripts of the gospels and we didn't have anything close to the originals. This seemed like extremely shoddy work by an all-powerful and all-knowing god. The floodgates then opened and the questions kept on coming. Why is sending a human sacrifice to Bronze Age Palestine to a people who are known for being primitive and superstitious the best way to deal with "sin?" Why does this god constantly need worship and people to grovel before him? Why send people a flawed book with scientific and ethical views that perfectly fit in line with the views of that day as a manual for 21st century people to live by? If this book is given to be accessible by all, why have it written in dead languages that must be learned to fully understand its meaning and require the reader to be fully aware of the context it was written in to prevent misinterpretations? I have never found a satisfying answer to any of these questions and I still have many, many more. I still have a slight fear of hell, but I've been reading through the Koran and it says everyone except Muslims are going to hell so whether you are an atheist or a believer, you're always at risk of going to one hell or the other. It literally is insanity that God would put us on Earth without asking for our consent at all and force us to figure out the right religion among a bunch of contradictory, scientifically innacurate belief systems or face eternal torment. Even if that god existed I'm sure that I could never love it. Anyways, I hope that wasn't too long. Thanks for reading and I know quite a bit about religion and Christianity so hopefully I can positively contribute around here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 So I was sure the Bible was not inerrant but realized that I didn't have to believe that it was to be a Christian. Perhaps I could just follow Jesus teachings in the gospels and believe in the ressurection and I would be saved. Well looking into the New Testament, I was shocked to find out the gospels were written a whole generation after Jesus lived, contradicted eachother on many different matters, and probably weren't written by any eyewitnesses. Plus certain verses in today's Bibles couldn't even be found in the earliest manuscripts of the gospels and we didn't have anything close to the originals. This seemed like extremely shoddy work by an all-powerful and all-knowing god. The floodgates then opened and the questions kept on coming. Why is sending a human sacrifice to Bronze Age Palestine to a people who are known for being primitive and superstitious the best way to deal with "sin?" Why does this god constantly need worship and people to grovel before him? Why send people a flawed book with scientific and ethical views that perfectly fit in line with the views of that day as a manual for 21st century people to live by? If this book is given to be accessible by all, why have it written in dead languages that must be learned to fully understand its meaning and require the reader to be fully aware of the context it was written in to prevent misinterpretations? I have never found a satisfying answer to any of these questions and I still have many, many more. I still have a slight fear of hell, but I've been reading through the Koran and it says everyone except Muslims are going to hell so whether you are an atheist or a believer, you're always at risk of going to one hell or the other. It literally is insanity that God would put us on Earth without asking for our consent at all and force us to figure out the right religion among a bunch of contradictory, scientifically innacurate belief systems or face eternal torment. Even if that god existed I'm sure that I could never love it. Anyways, I hope that wasn't too long. Thanks for reading and I know quite a bit about religion and Christianity so hopefully I can positively contribute around here! Save yourself some mental anguish. Rather than torture yourself by asking the innumerable questions that come when you analyze ancient mythology that's been insanely rationalized to be history/reality, start with the null hypothesis that it all is essentially theological fiction. It doesn't have to make sense. It wasn't intended to make sense, even to an ancient mind, much less a modern one. It's all oracles, prophecies, horoscopes, and mysticism, written by people who thought diseases were demons inside the body. Also, the gospels being "written a whole generation after Jesus died" would, by ancient standards, be incredibly fast and therefore proof of their reliability, not the opposite. But of course this "written 40 years after Jesus's death" meme is just more apologetic nonsense that sticks to the Bible like barnacles to a ship. The gospels are the same theological fantasies as the rest of the Bible. We don't know when, by whom, or where they were written; nor does it matter, because they were not written by historians, semi-historians, or even quasi-historians, but celibate monks shaking an angry fist at the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted April 16, 2014 Moderator Share Posted April 16, 2014 Welcome, bb! I relate to much of your thought process. I hope that you are able to move beyond the fear aspects and find more meaningful subjects and activities to engage in quickly. Namaste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted April 16, 2014 Author Share Posted April 16, 2014 Thanks for the replies. I think that starting with the null hypothesis is the way to go. Many people seem to draw up a false dichotomy of either being an Atheist or believing in the religion most prevalent in their culture. The truth is there have been thousands of gods believed in throughout history so the burden of proof should be squarely upon the person claiming their god is the one true god. It's not my job to disprove your religion, it's up to you to provide solid evidence of it. Without that I have no other reason to believe in your god over any of the thousands of others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 The best advice I can give is to pick up a short book on world religions and/or world folklore. It's all folklore. It was never intended to be examined under a microscope or carbon dated or have to provide modern ideas of "evidence." The very writers of these holy texts would have thought that quite insane. They were simply trying to make sense out of the present by drawing fanciful pictures of the past. It's not their fault that crazy people make their texts into something they never expected or intended. Don't look at "myth" as a pejorative term. I actually don't like the term at all, and only use it here to avoid ambiguity. The Greek and Mesopotamian Myths are not myths in the modern sense. People believed these stories were true, found meaning in them, and that's how we should approach them today -- not to literally believe them, but to appreciate the creative impulse common to all human cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 16, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 16, 2014 It's good you've figured all this out while you are young. Do you plan on staying at the christian college, and, if so, what will you major in? I ask because I endure four years in christian college hell only to earn a degree that has been, for all intents and purposes, completely useless to me in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 16, 2014 Share Posted April 16, 2014 Welcome. Changing the college or university you attend is fairly simple, with appropriate planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted April 16, 2014 Author Share Posted April 16, 2014 I am planning on transferring as soon as I can to a large, secular university. I am planning on majoring in computer science and I think it should be a useful major Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Welcome. To my mind one of the biggest problems that Christianity has is that it's based on the national cult of Israel and therefore has many ideas and tenets that, translated into a purported international religion, make absolutely no sense at all. The genocide of the old testament makes unpleasant sense as the beliefs of the Jewish people who are convinced that their god is bigger than anyone else's, as does the idea of throwing any non believer (for which, read an original concept of all non-Jews) into hell. Put that into a wider context, and it becomes a huge issue for the sanity of the religion. You may find it possible to apply this line to other issues you've identified. As to prophecy, as you rightly indicate, the argument that "scripture is true because we can interpret prophecies as fulfilled hundreds of years later" ignores the point that religious authors had hundreds of years to make up a story that could be seen to fit. A change of course sounds a wise choice. Also, this website might interest you - though I'm not going to guarantee the accuracy of all it says: http://pocm.info/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Why does this god constantly need worship and people to grovel before him? You'll notice that it isn't God saying we need to worship him. It is Christian people that say this and many other things. God is actually quite silent and absent...as if he was non-existent. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I am planning on transferring as soon as I can to a large, secular university. I am planning on majoring in computer science and I think it should be a useful major Welcome to ex-c that is a good plan, you can put your time, effort and money more on your major rather than bible classes or thoughts about religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 I do somewhat enjoy learning more about the Bible and arguments for the existence of God(even the Christian god) because I many of my friends are Christian and I want to know what bs arguments they might try to use to convert me back and how to properly debunk them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I do somewhat enjoy learning more about the Bible and arguments for the existence of God(even the Christian god) because I many of my friends are Christian and I want to know what bs arguments they might try to use to convert me back and how to properly debunk them The first tool in that toolbox is being able to distinguish a sound and valid argument from a mere assertion or other logical fallacy. Theists (including Christians) are long on and frequent with mere assertions and logical fallacies (along with lies and misrepresentations of facts), but it is rare when they provide sound and/or valid arguments. Take Logic 101 and 102 at your new college, or study and learn the equivalent in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Another thing xians often do is try to shift the burden of proof onto you. Keep bringing them back to the original question of what evidence do they have for the existence of god. I wish I had studied logic at university, but since I didn't (and can't at the moment), I enjoy watching Matt Dillahunty use once a week with theists, here: http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/?full=1#table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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