Prayer Is A Problem For Me

[directionless]

Intellectually I am getting more confident that no version of Christianity can be true - no matter how mystical or imaginative.  I read the final chapters of "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus" by Geza Vermes for the first time and that helped.

 

So I was walking and thinking what a relief it is to have a blank paper for religion because humans are not supposed to know our purpose.  I sat down and watched a hermit crab and some little fish swimming around in a pool and was imagining myself as a little piece of a universal organism.  I felt pretty good until I started walking home and there was a Bible laying on the sidewalk with nobody around.  Maybe somebody left it there to keep it dry while fishing.  Or maybe the Salvation Army gave it to a homeless person who didn't really want it and left it there.  Or maybe I hallucinated it.  It didn't bother me too much but it spoiled the mood.

 

So imagine me this morning or any morning for the last few days.  Intellectually I'm thinking about ordering some more books to drive the final nails into the coffin of Christianity, but simultaneously I realize I'm silently saying the Jesus Prayer, or the Lord's Prayer, or the Trisagion Prayer.  It's been two years, and I don't seem to be making much progress.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The whole point behind time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.  Give yourself time and this, too, shall pass.  You've probably been silently praying those prayers for most of your life without even realizing it.  You're probably only noticing it now because of where you are on your intellectual journey.

 

Also, I wouldn't sell yourself short by thinking you're not making much progress.  You sat down and watched a hermit crab and realized that you were just a small part of a universal whole.  You were able to get caught in a moment and enjoy it for what it was without having to read any deep spiritual meaning into it.  You were able to perceive the moment, as well as your place in the grand scheme of things, with clarity.  That is progress, especially if you were heavily indoctrinated from childhood.

 

I hope this helps.

[Adam5]

Hi Directionless, it can take time for many to un-do the brainwashing of Christianity.  Religion is a powerful system of control and regular prayers through repetition is a part of this.  It is a kind of hypnotism.

 

As an aside on prayer, when looked at rationally why would a God need prayer?  If God is all knowing, there is no need to make petitions to him or weary him with demands.  From this point of view, prayer is actually an act of unbelief as it is doubting that God knows all, or the petitioner wants God to do something that he isnt already doing.  So even believing God exists, there is no proper reason to pray.

 

The good news is that the people here are either deconverted or in the process of deconverting, which shows it can be done, and there is the light of enlightenment at the end of the tunnel, and the end to confusion and superstition.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

To add to what Adam5 said, consider this:  If something is god's will, won't it happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not?  And if something is not god's will, then praying for it would be praying against god's will.  What purpose does prayer serve?

[directionless]

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement.  Normally I use the prayers as a home remedy for depression.  I try to exercise every day and lately I'm trying to meditate as well.  But in spite of all that I still get depressed almost every day.  Repeating a prayer often makes me feel better, but then I realize what I'm doing and stop myself.  So I've lost that cure for depression.  I think my efforts to debunk Christianity might increase the depression too.

[lareason]

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement.  Normally I use the prayers as a home remedy for depression.  I try to exercise every day and lately I'm trying to meditate as well.  But in spite of all that I still get depressed almost every day.  Repeating a prayer often makes me feel better, but then I realize what I'm doing and stop myself.  So I've lost that cure for depression.  I think my efforts to debunk Christianity might increase the depression too.

Can you say a "prayer" to the universe or something not directly related to Christianity? Sometimes I just say like a little prayer of gratitude for a beautiful day, or something simple like that. It helps me with my depression by reminding me that I'm a part of something beautiful and wonderful. I don't know if that's something that your belief jives with or not..I'm still in the early stage of deconversion and am just trying to figure out what I believe right now!

[Ousian]

I'm not convinced subconcious prayer is such a bad thing, if you realize there's nobody on the other end.  Don't suppress is more than you are comfortable with.  If it makes you feel better, continue doing so, but conciously try to phase it out, doing so less and less.  Bad habits die hard.

[amateur]

 

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement.  Normally I use the prayers as a home remedy for depression.  I try to exercise every day and lately I'm trying to meditate as well.  But in spite of all that I still get depressed almost every day.  Repeating a prayer often makes me feel better, but then I realize what I'm doing and stop myself.  So I've lost that cure for depression.  I think my efforts to debunk Christianity might increase the depression too.

Can you say a "prayer" to the universe or something not directly related to Christianity? Sometimes I just say like a little prayer of gratitude for a beautiful day, or something simple like that. It helps me with my depression by reminding me that I'm a part of something beautiful and wonderful. I don't know if that's something that your belief jives with or not..I'm still in the early stage of deconversion and am just trying to figure out what I believe right now!

 

I do this, too.  I've been agnostic/atheist for years, but still there are days where something occurs that is so beautiful and I feel so very good that I let my mind just bask in thanks and gratitude that I've gotten to experience such a thing.  It's not a prayer but it's not just a normal thought, either.  If I had been enjoying the crab and fish and getting the feeling of being a little piece of the whole, I'd be thinking something like, "Thank you, little sisters, for being here with me and showing me how we're all connected!  You're so beautiful and graceful in the water, and the sun is on all of us, just bringing us all together right now!"  I mean, sure, maybe the fish are just clustered together for safety while looking for food, and the crab might just be looking for a mate, but I can certainly enjoy the experience of watching them and feeling pulled out of the world of people and houses and cars and jobs, and into a smaller and more beautiful world of living in the water and going single-mindedly about my business under the sun.  I think it's a very good thing to see things like that because so many people overlook them, and to really be thankful you did get to see it and experience it.

 

In the end, life is a collection of memories and experiences.  Hopefully, we can make good memories on the way, and actually experience little moments that we can always look back on with a smile and a happy heart that we noticed and appreciated them.

[directionless]

I'm not convinced subconcious prayer is such a bad thing, if you realize there's nobody on the other end.  Don't suppress is more than you are comfortable with.  If it makes you feel better, continue doing so, but conciously try to phase it out, doing so less and less.  Bad habits die hard.

 

That's how I've been approaching it the past year, but I've felt myself becoming more attached to prayer the more I do it.  I tend to revert to Christian habits and cognitive dissonance increases.  I had a beautiful dream of Jesus a few years ago and other experiences where it seemed like God was guiding me somewhere.  So while I've had no hesitancy about debunking Christianity, I haven't been able to bring myself to debunk Jesus and God.  I'm stuck in limbo.

[directionless]

 

 

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement.  Normally I use the prayers as a home remedy for depression.  I try to exercise every day and lately I'm trying to meditate as well.  But in spite of all that I still get depressed almost every day.  Repeating a prayer often makes me feel better, but then I realize what I'm doing and stop myself.  So I've lost that cure for depression.  I think my efforts to debunk Christianity might increase the depression too.

Can you say a "prayer" to the universe or something not directly related to Christianity? Sometimes I just say like a little prayer of gratitude for a beautiful day, or something simple like that. It helps me with my depression by reminding me that I'm a part of something beautiful and wonderful. I don't know if that's something that your belief jives with or not..I'm still in the early stage of deconversion and am just trying to figure out what I believe right now!

 

I do this, too.  I've been agnostic/atheist for years, but still there are days where something occurs that is so beautiful and I feel so very good that I let my mind just bask in thanks and gratitude that I've gotten to experience such a thing.  It's not a prayer but it's not just a normal thought, either.  If I had been enjoying the crab and fish and getting the feeling of being a little piece of the whole, I'd be thinking something like, "Thank you, little sisters, for being here with me and showing me how we're all connected!  You're so beautiful and graceful in the water, and the sun is on all of us, just bringing us all together right now!"  I mean, sure, maybe the fish are just clustered together for safety while looking for food, and the crab might just be looking for a mate, but I can certainly enjoy the experience of watching them and feeling pulled out of the world of people and houses and cars and jobs, and into a smaller and more beautiful world of living in the water and going single-mindedly about my business under the sun.  I think it's a very good thing to see things like that because so many people overlook them, and to really be thankful you did get to see it and experience it.

 

In the end, life is a collection of memories and experiences.  Hopefully, we can make good memories on the way, and actually experience little moments that we can always look back on with a smile and a happy heart that we noticed and appreciated them.

 

 

Thanks.  Sometimes, I thank the wheat and the egg before I eat my breakfast from McDonanlds (silly I know )  It just seems awkward when I feel the need to pray or give thanks to do it a new way - "ah ah ah - can't thank God when I feel happy".  Sometimes I think I'll never enjoy the freedom of being a real agnostic because the Christian stuff is too embedded in my personality.

[amateur]

^^That's not silly!  I think it's wonderful to be aware and grateful to the details of life!

 

It'll all take time, and lots of it, and over time you'll learn new ways to do things that work better for you.  Yeah, it'll feel awkward at first but eventually you'll look at your breakfast and simply be able to thank the wheat and egg, and just feel grateful for that moment.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Thanks, everybody, for the encouragement.  Normally I use the prayers as a home remedy for depression.  I try to exercise every day and lately I'm trying to meditate as well.  But in spite of all that I still get depressed almost every day.  Repeating a prayer often makes me feel better, but then I realize what I'm doing and stop myself.  So I've lost that cure for depression.  I think my efforts to debunk Christianity might increase the depression too.

Can you say a "prayer" to the universe or something not directly related to Christianity? Sometimes I just say like a little prayer of gratitude for a beautiful day, or something simple like that. It helps me with my depression by reminding me that I'm a part of something beautiful and wonderful. I don't know if that's something that your belief jives with or not..I'm still in the early stage of deconversion and am just trying to figure out what I believe right now!

 

I do this, too.  I've been agnostic/atheist for years, but still there are days where something occurs that is so beautiful and I feel so very good that I let my mind just bask in thanks and gratitude that I've gotten to experience such a thing.  It's not a prayer but it's not just a normal thought, either.  If I had been enjoying the crab and fish and getting the feeling of being a little piece of the whole, I'd be thinking something like, "Thank you, little sisters, for being here with me and showing me how we're all connected!  You're so beautiful and graceful in the water, and the sun is on all of us, just bringing us all together right now!"  I mean, sure, maybe the fish are just clustered together for safety while looking for food, and the crab might just be looking for a mate, but I can certainly enjoy the experience of watching them and feeling pulled out of the world of people and houses and cars and jobs, and into a smaller and more beautiful world of living in the water and going single-mindedly about my business under the sun.  I think it's a very good thing to see things like that because so many people overlook them, and to really be thankful you did get to see it and experience it.

 

In the end, life is a collection of memories and experiences.  Hopefully, we can make good memories on the way, and actually experience little moments that we can always look back on with a smile and a happy heart that we noticed and appreciated them.

 

 

Thanks.  Sometimes, I thank the wheat and the egg before I eat my breakfast from McDonanlds (silly I know )  It just seems awkward when I feel the need to pray or give thanks to do it a new way - "ah ah ah - can't thank God when I feel happy".  Sometimes I think I'll never enjoy the freedom of being a real agnostic because the Christian stuff is too embedded in my personality.

 

I think it's a good thing to take a moment to reflect upon all of the farmers, growers, breeders, harvesters, truckers, and grocers who all work hard bringing food to us before eating a meal.

[par4dcourse]

I've heard it said that flipping a coin is an excellent way to make decisions because in that moment when the coin is in the air you will favor one outcome over the other. Prayer is a way to sort out thoughts and decide what you really hope to accomplish. And you'll get an "answer", from your own brain (which exists) and not a god (which doesn't).

[♦ nivek ♦]

Directionless,

 

Along with many of my hobbies and forms of filling my gut, paying UnkaSham, alcohol and sex, sailing in deep blue ocean water with small craft (>16 foot) has been one of them.

You are most decidedly NOT directionless at this time. May not be time to cast off. Could be that there are other things in life requiring your attention for a long bit. People die on the oceans when they toss loose, head out unprepared.

Comparing your "now" to where you might want to be is comparable to that enjoyable weekend ocean cruise. May take time to first learn how to navigate on your own instead of pre-prepared directions from pulpits and black robed whores. Could be funds once given to the Asshole Society of Sunday Consumption of Funds needs to be rerouted and "float your boat".

Amigo, you are in a good spot to kick back, hit a beer or ten, relax, and try not to make the former foundation of your thinking melt away. I'd suggest instead of trying to kick religion's balls, read what makes you want to read. Alternative History, any form of fiction, what_the_fuck_evar.

Be content, prepare for the life ahead of you as your anchor line is up, you are free to cast your ass off and head out into the deep blue.

kevinL

 

[Ellinas]

The bit about the hermit crab is interesting.

 

Quiet observation can, in itself, be a form of meditation and relaxation, and help with depression (personally, I'd usually try to empty my mind - or empty it more than usual - whilst doing this).

 

The prayers sound almost like a sort of comfort blanket - informal ritual acts that provide a sort of anchor of stability for your psyche.  There's no reason for you to worry about this - any more than having a ritual method of locking the doors before retiring for the night or any other such repetitive behaviour.  If you would prefer to do otherwise, decide what alternative form of words would be more comfortable for you; it'll probably need only a couple of weeks of concentration to change the habit to the new prayers (or whatever the alternative form becomes).  For instance, if you don't want to say " I thank you...", how about "I am glad that..."?

[RipVanWinkle]

" Prayer is a way to sort out thoughts and decide what you really hope to accomplish. And you'll get an "answer", from your own brain (which exists) and not a god (which doesn't)." SkipNChurch

 

That is exactly right. If you don't truly believe that there is a Xtian god up there listening to your prayer you're not really praying in the biblical sense. That requires belief not only in god but also that your prayer will be answered.

 

Remember this: We now know from neuroscience that the brain physically changes with repeated identical beliefs. This makes it difficult to disbelieve a long held belief. Your are not doing anything wrong. You are now on the road to recovery. Give it time and be kind to yourself. You've gone through enough bullshit.    bill

[par4dcourse]

^^That was me, Bill, although K has good points too.

[Roz]

I think it's natural to wish for assistance when in need or to be thankful when things go your way.  I'm no biologist or psychiatrist, just my own layman's view of the subject.

 

Prayer to god was just the religion exploiting those natural tendencies, and yeah, it was a while before I've gotten used to just having those emotions without the religious garbage.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I've been going through a similar issue lately and I can really empathise.  I'm trying to be gentle with myself and trusting that the spontaneous unwanted thoughts that sound like prayers will decrease over time.

[mymistake]

Have you tried praying to other things?  It really helped me.

 

On a related note I discovered the I deconverted that I had a horrible habit of talking to myself.  I was one of those "pray without ceasing" Christians.  For those of you who have never heard of it this is a movement in Christianity where you strive to pray the entire time you are conscious.  When you wake up your prayer begins.  You put your prayer on hold at any time you need to talk to somebody - like at work.  But other than that you quietly wiper your prayers to the Lord all day long.

 

When I became an ex-Christian this translated into an automatic habit of talking to myself.  I never realized that I had been talking to myself the whole time.  Anyway to break this habit I would periodically cover my lips or my throat to remind myself to stop.

 

Christianity is bonkers.

[directionless]

The bit about the hermit crab is interesting.

 

Quiet observation can, in itself, be a form of meditation and relaxation, and help with depression (personally, I'd usually try to empty my mind - or empty it more than usual - whilst doing this).

 

The prayers sound almost like a sort of comfort blanket - informal ritual acts that provide a sort of anchor of stability for your psyche.  There's no reason for you to worry about this - any more than having a ritual method of locking the doors before retiring for the night or any other such repetitive behaviour.  If you would prefer to do otherwise, decide what alternative form of words would be more comfortable for you; it'll probably need only a couple of weeks of concentration to change the habit to the new prayers (or whatever the alternative form becomes).  For instance, if you don't want to say " I thank you...", how about "I am glad that..."?

 

Yes, "comfort blanket" is a good description.   Every time when I leave my home, I lock the door and go sit in the car, then I suddenly worry if I forgot to lock the door.  So I get out of the car and go back to check the door knob, and then I finally return to the car and leave.  So you are a good guesser.  That's my personality.

 

I have tried changing the prayers to be less specifically Christian, but I keep slipping back into old habits.  Part of the problem is that I don't know what I believe.  There are some things in Christianity that I think are almost certainly lies, but sometimes I wonder if there is a real God and maybe even a real Jesus in spite of that - like maybe God and Jesus sort of shaped the lies of Christianity into a kind of truth?

[directionless]

I've been going through a similar issue lately and I can really empathise.  I'm trying to be gentle with myself and trusting that the spontaneous unwanted thoughts that sound like prayers will decrease over time.

 

Thanks.  I read the extimony in your signature.  I've been depressed most of my life, so I can relate to your experiences.

[directionless]

Have you tried praying to other things?  It really helped me.

 

On a related note I discovered the I deconverted that I had a horrible habit of talking to myself.  I was one of those "pray without ceasing" Christians.  For those of you who have never heard of it this is a movement in Christianity where you strive to pray the entire time you are conscious.  When you wake up your prayer begins.  You put your prayer on hold at any time you need to talk to somebody - like at work.  But other than that you quietly wiper your prayers to the Lord all day long.

 

When I became an ex-Christian this translated into an automatic habit of talking to myself.  I never realized that I had been talking to myself the whole time.  Anyway to break this habit I would periodically cover my lips or my throat to remind myself to stop.

 

Christianity is bonkers.

 

I can identify with that.  I tried to repeat the Jesus Prayer silently in my head at every opportunity, because it was connected to "prayer of the heart" which is supposed to allow people to experience God while praying.  It never did a thing for me that I noticed.   But now I have a habit of saying those words.

[directionless]

Thanks, everybody, for the suggestions and encouragement

 

I guess I'll go back to lurking again for a while.  (Posting wears me out, because I have a hard time explaining my issues.)

[Deidre]

View it this way---you have been programmed to thinking a certain way for some time, now. It takes time for all that programming to 'deprogram.' You also have to find new ways to process stress, and difficult times, times when possibly you might have leaned on prayer more. But don't get angry with yourself. This is a process, and as you continue on your path, habitual prayers etc will fall away naturally. It can be a loss of sorts, and I remember having to mourn the loss of my faith. Even though cognitively, I knew it was the right thing, my heart had to catch up. Leaving Christianity from a logical standpoint was easy. Emotionally, it was tough. Hang in there.