mymistake Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Christian deepity quotes to follow in 5... 4... 3... 2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Followed by U2 song lyrics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2014 Shall we start the betting at, say, 8,000 unblemished lambs, 700 concubines, 22,000 Amalekite babies whose heads have not yet been bashed against a stone, and 17,000 ephahs of grain that Ironhorse will dodge this question? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MadameX Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Wouldn't touch this conversation with a 10 cubit pole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hang on everybody, I'm making the popcorn!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hang on everybody, I'm making the popcorn!! I'll bring the beer! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 C'mon guys he's ok. I have to admit I was a lot worse than Ironhorse in my Jesus days, I used to get angry and offended at people who questioned my views, he seems to be quite happy taking our light hearted criticism. At least he sounds like he's half way out the door with his luke-warm theology. He's coming to our church, he just has to walk up during the altar call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 18, 2014 Author Share Posted April 18, 2014 C'mon guys he's ok. I have to admit I was a lot worse than Ironhorse in my Jesus days, I used to get angry and offended at people who questioned my views, he seems to be quite happy taking our light hearted criticism. At least he sounds like he's half way out the door with his luke-warm theology. He's coming to our church, he just has to walk up during the altar call. Oh I don't want Ironhorse to become an ex-Christian. I really don't care what he does. But ex-Christian is a very unlikely event. I would guess there is a 25% of that happening over his entire lifetime. The idea that it would happen in front of me is very remote. Being struck by lightning is more likely. I made my request so that others might see that the message of the Bible is not clear or easy to understand. This is to help those who are trying to free themselves of a lifetime of being held captive by the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Yeah I get that MM. I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about Ironhorse deconverting, he had stated he will endure to the end. What I mean is I sort of understand his take on theology(even though it's wrong Biblically) his heart is not as hardened against people that he wants to take the core message of the Bible(that we are absolutely hopeless and deserving of total and eternal judgement) and believe it so he has looked for a version of it he can live with. I think when you choose to overlook certain aspects of God and his word you are subconsciously unable to accept the true message because you actually do believe in humans having worth outside of God and the reality that he basically hates us is actually unjust. I just compare him with the self righteous Christians who seem to take great joy out of condemning us like they actually want us to burn forever and couldn't give a fuck why we don't believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think Ironhorse is interested in hearing our side. He's likely on this forum because in real life he can tell people he has an online ministry helping atheists see the light. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me. He never says, "maybe you guys are right, I'll think about it". That's what someone who's seeking truth would do, and I have yet to see him do that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Nearly all of my replies haven't been to IH. It's for the forum guests who want to see how a christian defends christianity against its contradictions. IH seems like he's closed minded to any criticism of christianity, why he continues to post drive by evengelism snips is beyond me, but it's fun to refute them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think Ironhorse is interested in hearing our side. He's likely on this forum because in real life he can tell people he has an online ministry helping atheists see the light. I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me. He never says, "maybe you guys are right, I'll think about it". That's what someone who's seeking truth would do, and I have yet to see him do that. True. He's not doing a very good job of convincing anybody of his religion when he can't actually stick to the Bible as his source, if he has to quote Bono and C.S Lewis- not Jesus and Paul then I don't think has much trust in the word of God. His POV is easy to refute when even Christians would refute it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Oh, you guys are still trying to engage him? Hey, fine by me, but I've assumed that Ironhorse is an atheist troll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Oh, you guys are still trying to engage him? Hey, fine by me, but I've assumed that Ironhorse is an atheist troll! True, that is possible. We'll see maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think Ironhorse is interested in hearing our side. He's likely on this forum because in real life he can tell people he has an online ministry helping atheists see the light. Interesting theory. Padding the 'ole god resume. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 19, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2014 C'mon guys he's ok. I have to admit I was a lot worse than Ironhorse in my Jesus days, I used to get angry and offended at people who questioned my views, he seems to be quite happy taking our light hearted criticism. At least he sounds like he's half way out the door with his luke-warm theology. He's coming to our church, he just has to walk up during the altar call. I agree with some of the others. My goal isn't to deconvert anyone here; I simply want to help both members and lurkers to clarify their thoughts and/or doubts. Ironhorse is useful for that purpose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryG Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think Ironhorse is interested in hearing our side.  He's likely on this forum because in real life he can tell people he has an online ministry helping atheists see the light.  I could be wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.  He never says, "maybe you guys are right, I'll think about it".  That's what someone who's seeking truth would do, and I have yet to see him do that. Interesting thought. Something like that, I'm pretty sure. And having a ministry to atheists is as cool and groovy as having a ministry to biker gangs or rock musicians. Even if he said, "Maybe you guys are right, I'll have to think about it," he'd only be playing a game. Whatever the details, ironhorse is here for ironhorse's own ego and the central message he believes in is, "Hey, look at me! Aren't I just the hippest christian?" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I'm hopeful that Ironhorse will at least respond, because I'm curious to see what HIS version of the "core message" is, and how he decided which of the core messages of different parts of the bible to prefer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. -The Bible tell the story of God working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. -He died and came back to life the third day. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 19, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2014 -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. You misunderstand one of the very foundational principles of your own book. Read the thread "God Is A Liar". Lucifer didn't tempt the first man and woman. Lucifer told them the truth. The truth which god conveniently failed to tell them, I might add. god knew all along that they would eat the fruit and bring sin and evil into the world because he planned it that way. If you don't even understand the very foundation of your religion (Original Sin), how can you be so certain that the rest of it is what you perceive it to be? Think, TinPony; your brain is more than just a beer filter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. You misunderstand one of the very foundational principles of your own book. Read the thread "God Is A Liar". Lucifer didn't tempt the first man and woman. Lucifer told them the truth. The truth which god conveniently failed to tell them, I might add. god knew all along that they would eat the fruit and bring sin and evil into the world because he planned it that way. If you don't even understand the very foundation of your religion (Original Sin), how can you be so certain that the rest of it is what you perceive it to be? Think, TinPony; your brain is more than just a beer filter. I was just about to say this same thing. "The serpent" is never identified as "Lucifer" (and IIR, Lucifer is never identified as "the Devil" specifically, either, but I might not be remembering that bit correctly). And it wasn't sin and death that entered the world, it was knowledge of good and evil; some argue that = sin and death, but it's a problem to conflate those ideas. Others interpret the "original sin" as the man and woman wanting knowledge in order to be like God, i.e. hubris/greed. And interestingly, much of our contemporary understanding on the Adam and Eve myth, including snake = devil, comes from John Milton's Paradise Lost, not direct scripture. And again, if that is the myth on which you're basing your understanding of the entire bible, and yet you can't get that correct (because it's impossible to find a single correct interpretation of it, amongst other things), how can you argue for the single, simple interpretation of the rest of it? Finally, the central message, as you've presented it, is of a very twisted, sadistic, and manipulative God. Without the tree in the first place, there would be no need for the sacrifice and redemption. It makes a very interesting myth from a lit. history perspective. But as far as using it as the foundation for your own morality, it's really fucked up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 19, 2014 Author Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. -The Bible tell the story of God working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. -He died and came back to life the third day. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. So why did God have two arms, two legs, ten fingers, ten toes, one head, two eyes, one mouth, one nose, sexual organs, a belly button, hair, teeth and all the rest? Don't you think God has a very strange image? Please note I am not talking about Jesus. I am talking about God who made humans in God's image. You said this was clear and that you understand it. In God's image clearly means that God made us to look like God. Thus God has skin and fingernails, eye lids and eye lashes. God must stand like a biped. These are strange traits for a cosmic being to possess, no? Why is God so incompetent at bringing redemption to the world? So few are saved. So many souls burning in hell and we both know that none of them choose to go to hell. When Microsoft or Apple or some other company wants to communicate billions of people get the message instantly. But the best God can do is the Bible. Have you ever heard the phrase "if it sounds too good to be true then it probably is"? Doesn't it seem strange to you how God is going to give so much to people for so little? Just put your faith in him. It's just thinking a thought. And in return you get everything. Everything for almost nothing. But God knows that thinking people need more than just an empty promise. But God who gives so much over nothing is going to be stubborn about providing evidence. Nope, God will not lift a finger to demonstrate that his religion is any better than the tens of thousands of other religions. That is unless you are Moses, Thomas, or some other person mentioned in the Bible. If you lived in a Bible story then of course God will give you the evidence to prove to you that God is real. Ironhorse do you see these glaring holes in this narrative that you say is clear and understood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEE2L2l3PAo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francesco Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 ironhorse: that's more like your summary of bible rather than central message. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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