RipVanWinkle Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Ironhorse: If your post #90 describes god's plan, why did he have his own son killed? Was he so impotent that he did not have the ability to forgive his own creatures without having his own son killed? Why would he put himself in that ridiculous position? Why did god himself have to utilize the barbaric practice death sacrifice like the Mayans and the Aztecs and other mere humans who didn't know any better? Who made the rule requiring sacrifice? If god did, who made him do so? If it was god himself who did, why couldn't he revoke it?. Why would god set up a plan which he knew would result in the execution of his son. Why not a plan which didn't require his son's death and did require eternal torture for billions? Why did god institute a plan for salvation which he knew in advance would result in eternal peace for a few but eternal damnation for billions? Why create humans to begin with? Was he really so weak and dependent that he needed their adoration? You can't answer these questions because a good god could not have had such a plan because he would prove himself not good by doing so. Your answers, if you were to attempt to answer, would be cop outs, like "god acts in mysterious ways", which means that you don't have any fucking idea why he would do such a thing. The above are core questions that no Xtian can answer sensibly. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Either God is the big dog and can work it out without anyone being damned or he doesn't exist. Why can simple humans see the logical ways of creating something and the moral responsibilities on behalf of the creator but God has to make things so fucking complicated and unnecessary and humans are caught in the fallout of God's fucked up activity. If God is real and good there is no hell or punishment, we never rolled the dice and asked to be born so it's on him, not us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Think, TinPony; your brain is more than just a beer filter. Dont make assumptions :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 20, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 20, 2014 Think, TinPony; your brain is more than just a beer filter. Dont make assumptions :-) Oops! Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Yeah, that's a nice little mini-creed, but not a very good summary of a central message of a book that's supposedly unified. Here's what the writer of first John says the message is: This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Oh, okay, so the central message is about the nature of god. Except when Mark has Jesus presenting his central message, it's not about the nature of god. It's about something called the kingdom of god, and about repentance: Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Luke doesn't start with any central message that brief and explicit, but the point seems to be about freedom for people who have been oppressed: And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor.He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” 20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Meanwhile, John has a much more detailed, abstract, and theological message about the nature of Jesus: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. The various Paul letters have their own things to say about what the point is. Some seem to emphasize faith; others, obedience. None of these things resonate with the central messages of the OT--which is why observant Jews don't find Christianity compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. No. There is no requirement for there to be any kind of God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. No. This universe is a by-product of cosmic inflation and the decay of the Higgs field. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. No. We evolved from earlier forms of life. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. No. Death has been present for as long as there's been life, which is about 3 billion years. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. No. There is no such thing as sin, except in the minds of Christians. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. No. There is no God to make such a demand. -The Bible tell the story of God No. It doesn't. It's the collected and contradictory superstitious musings of ancient people. working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. No. There was no initial state of perfection or innocence to go wrong. Disease, corruption and death have existed for at least 3 billion years. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. No. Since there was no fall from grace, there is no such thing as sin and if there was a man called Jesus who died on a cross, that's all he did on that piece of wood. -He died and came back to life the third day. No. That's a myth. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. No. There is no kingodm of God because there is no God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. -The Bible tell the story of God working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. -He died and came back to life the third day. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. Not bad, but why not choose one of these eighteen 4th century creeds instead? http://www.fourthcentury.com/conciliar-creeds-of-the-fourth-century/ Gets harder as the centuries go on, IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. No. There is no requirement for there to be any kind of God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. No. This universe is a by-product of cosmic inflation and the decay of the Higgs field. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. No. We evolved from earlier forms of life. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. No. Death has been present for as long as there's been life, which is about 3 billion years. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. No. There is no such thing as sin, except in the minds of Christians. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. No. There is no God to make such a demand. -The Bible tell the story of God No. It doesn't. It's the collected and contradictory superstitious musings of ancient people. working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. No. There was no initial state of perfection or innocence to go wrong. Disease, corruption and death have existed for at least 3 billion years. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. No. Since there was no fall from grace, there is no such thing as sin and if there was a man called Jesus who died on a cross, that's all he did on that piece of wood. -He died and came back to life the third day. No. That's a myth. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. No. There is no kingodm of God because there is no God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. Well one thing is certain. It has been demonstrated that the Bible has no clear message. It is a collection of stories that disagree with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. No. There is no requirement for there to be any kind of God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. No. This universe is a by-product of cosmic inflation and the decay of the Higgs field. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. No. We evolved from earlier forms of life. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. No. Death has been present for as long as there's been life, which is about 3 billion years. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. No. There is no such thing as sin, except in the minds of Christians. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. No. There is no God to make such a demand. -The Bible tell the story of God No. It doesn't. It's the collected and contradictory superstitious musings of ancient people. working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. No. There was no initial state of perfection or innocence to go wrong. Disease, corruption and death have existed for at least 3 billion years. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. No. Since there was no fall from grace, there is no such thing as sin and if there was a man called Jesus who died on a cross, that's all he did on that piece of wood. -He died and came back to life the third day. No. That's a myth. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. No. There is no kingodm of God because there is no God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. When you see a crocodile with a baby wildebeest in it's jaws do you say "praise God he orchestrated pain, suffering and loss to enable survival"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. Well one thing is certain. It has been demonstrated that the Bible has no clear message. It is a collection of stories that disagree with each other. Not to me. Try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 My word!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Afireinside, why do you think he's still a christian? He doesn't want to let go of the fantasy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Hmmm or is this some kind of apologetic style bondage where he gets a kick out of being tied up and spanked? The safe word is Bob Dylan by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. Well one thing is certain. It has been demonstrated that the Bible has no clear message. It is a collection of stories that disagree with each other. Not to me. Try it again. You can't get toothpaste back into the tube. You can't "unknow" something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 You like that don't you Ironhorse you're BAAAAAD!!! That sound logic feels good on your bare ass don't it you naughty boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 23, 2014 Author Share Posted April 23, 2014 I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. Well one thing is certain. It has been demonstrated that the Bible has no clear message. It is a collection of stories that disagree with each other. Not to me. Try it again. It's in every question you dodge. It's in every contradiction you wave away with your faith. These things don't go away just because you ignore them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I'll bite (on just a few points, at least). There is only one universal God. The first commandment, as well as any prohibition of B'aal worship, implies believe in multiple deities. Monotheism comes from a series of religious reforms during the post-Exillic period. This is where the Genesis 1 narrative comes from. I'd highly recommend researching the different names for God used in the old testament, where they come from, and how they are related to Canaanite mythology. There are lots of well documented parallels between Christ and various other mythological figures as well, including but not limited to Osiris, Mithra, Appolo, Dionysius, and others. Some of the 'Christ Myth' stuff should be taken with a grain of salt and not all the research is solid; what is clear is that most of these 'Savior' tropes are obviously influenced by older mythologies, and this was done on purpose in order to lend more credibility to the movement. God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. Genesis 1 and 2 are very different versions, from different sources, and they contradict at multiple points. 1 comes from the much later Priestly (P) source, and 2 comes from a much earlier source, the Yahwist (J). Research the Documentary Hypothesis and see what you can find out. In a nutshell, there are four categories which are traced to different regions of Israel and they all have differing political/ideological agendas. The 'classic' view is that there are at least 4 sources; however more recent research indicates that the later Priestly redactors play a bigger role than was originally thought. Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. He is just a serpent, and God curses him to crawl on his belly. The text says 'Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.' According to Genesis, he is part of the animal kingdom, not part of some angelic host. It is a neat story for why snakes slither on the ground! Reinventing the story to turn him into something other than the way he was written is a fine example of twisting Scripture to fit a desired interpretation. God’s character demands that sin must face justice. A rescue volunteer is driving his speedboat around, rescuing people who are stranded and about to drown. One woman is so traumatized with shock and grief, that she refuses to be rescued. What is the loving thing to do? Rescue her anyway, or say, 'if you say so,' and then let her drown? If God is love and Jesus is our example for how to treat people, how does the latter choice square with this notion of ultimate justice and/or Divine love? And does it make any difference if God is the one who created the flood in the first place? The church is telling you that you're sick and then selling you the cure. It saddens me when Christians go on and on about how wicked and sinful they are and how they deserve eternal punishment. Most people aren't desperately wicked, whatever your church tells you. A loving father doesn't allow his children to burn forever, even when his children reject him or violate some technical ceremonial rule. There is no 'justice' in this; it is maniacal, psychotic, unnatural, and a horribly dreary perception of reality. Does God love us or not? It depends on which Scripture you pick. It's also notable that the doctrine of original sin is not even universally taught within Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox church has a much different view. Catholics and Protestants get much of this from Augustine, and subsequently Protestant reformers such as Calvin and Luther. One of Luther's lesser known works includes 'On the Jews and their Lies,' which I'd also encourage you read up on. When you're reading it, remember that this is the same person who basically founded Protestantism and is responsible for a great deal of what Christians believe today. The Bible tell the story of God working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. Most of the Old Testament is about establishing either a priesthood or a monarchy, depending on the source. Archaeology has found zero, zilch, nil, evidence of the Egyptians enslaving an entire ethnic group or any mass exodus from Egypt. The picture we see instead is quite different; the Israelites were an underclass of oppressed Canaanite peasants who revolted and established their own tribal and cultural identity, which eventually evolved into a monarchy. The stories we have usually have some connection to contemporary events, and make sense in light of what we know about it. A good example is the story of Lot and his daughters. It is essentially a dirty, racist joke meant to justify certain attitudes about the Moabites. The special 'thread of redemption' that supposedly foreshadows Christ is really a bunch of cherrypicking, more forcing a very specific interpretation on writings that could never have been intended as such. God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. Paul and the Gospel writers have some very different things to say about Jesus. Paul's writings are older. The earliest copies of Mark include no resurrection account. Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. There is a whole list of different requirements for salvation in the Bible, who gets saved, or whether or not you can get unsaved. They can't all be right. Here is an interesting chart. Christian apologists love to say 'apparent' contradictions, and some of them boast that 'every single one of them can be resolved.' This usually means, 'Yes, we can do all kinds of linguistic backflips to synthesize some kind of explanation for these contradictions.' But it begs the question: If these words really come from God, and he really, really intends us to understand them, why make it so complicated, and why allow Christians throughout history to kill each other over such technicalities as the exact nature of Christ's divinity, or the miracle of the Eucharist??? Jesus said 'By their fruits you will know them.' Ironhorse, I am new here and don't know you that well, but I can tell you that arguing with non-believers was one of the first steps towards realizing these things. It was exhausting, and I had to take a step back. Years later, the counter arguments presented by skeptics make so much more sense. It is too much work to have to defend all these superstitions and circular reasoning. Once you realize that human beings, not God, wrote these things down, it all makes more sense. I am glad you are here butting heads with other members here. It is work, and it is exausting. I can't tell you what you should believe, only share reasons for no longer believing what I used to believe. My conclusion: there is no singlular, central message in Scripture. Only smaller, localized messages. Some of them can be applied to our world to day, but lots of them are quite antiquated. Scripture actually comes more to life for me this way, since I have realized this. I love the Bible more for its cultural legacy and at times soaring poetry, now that I don't have to try so hard to defend it and make it fit some ancient creed that a roomful of men devised centuries after any of it was written. From all of Scripture, I think the book of Ecclesiastes, and bits of Proverbs, contain some profound insights into the human condition. But they do not square up with your faith propositions. This passage from chapter 9 sums it up pretty well, I think: 7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. Of course, in the end it is all summarized by saying basically 'because of all this, just fear and obey God.' But this feels tacked on, and most likely is, since Ecclesiastes, like most Scripture, is thought to be complied from various sources. Aside from this, the message is basically, "I've tried to find meaning in life, but have ultimately failed. At least we can do our best to enjoy the time we are given, because we are going to die either way." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 DoubtingNate: see, that biblical studies degree has its uses after all :-) I enjoyed your post: thorough, logical and well written. The table of salvation inconsistencies was particularly useful. Thank you for increasing my knowledge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydisplayname Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Hmmm or is this some kind of apologetic style bondage where he gets a kick out of being tied up and spanked? The safe word is Bob Dylan by the way This is how I view him as well. He likes being called out on his faith. What else would he be doing at an ex-Christian forum? Here Ironhorse, let me help you out. (Hands on the table please). God isn't real. He's a figment of your imagination. Snakes can't talk. If Jesus returns then we'll kill him again. Jesus surrounded himself with twelve dudes who followed him around and he wore a dress and never said anything about homosexuality being wrong. Think about it. I know you like hearing bad things about your imaginary friend so I'm giving you a chance to proclaim your belief and feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Ironhorse, we are in good company; Bob Dylan is also a fan of Ecclesiastes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 DoubtingNate: see, that biblical studies degree has its uses after all :-) I enjoyed your post: thorough, logical and well written. The table of salvation inconsistencies was particularly useful. Thank you for increasing my knowledge. Thank you. I've picked up lots of this stuff through my own research (I graduated in 02), however I do think my undergrad studies at the very least have given me a foundation to think critically about these things. It helps that the school I attended was fairly moderate and not so 'fundie' like some Bible colleges; I don't know of any professors who believe in, say, a young earth or a literal interpretation of the creation account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 @IronHorse Can I ask a question then? If we are all born into this world with Sin then Jesus was a Sinner? Therefore Jesus was not God as god apparently despises Sin? If God does not despise sin - Then what is the point of Jesus? Why did God allow the concept of Evil to exist? Surely an all Loving God would not allow a creation that he loved to Fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 It's in every question you dodge. It's in every contradiction you wave away with your faith. These things don't go away just because you ignore them. Somehow I'm hearing Sting sing the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I don't think the message is unclear. I don't understand every verse or know the answer to every question but I believe the central message. -Ironhorse Please state the central message that is so clear and that you understand so well. (Oh could we hear it in your own words? Let us have none of this C.S. Lewis quoting, please.) -There is only one universal God. No. There is no requirement for there to be any kind of God. -God created the heavens and the earth and all living things. No. This universe is a by-product of cosmic inflation and the decay of the Higgs field. -God created humans in his own image. God created humans to share love and life with them. No. We evolved from earlier forms of life. -Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was that sin and death entered the world. No. Death has been present for as long as there's been life, which is about 3 billion years. -Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true. No. There is no such thing as sin, except in the minds of Christians. -God’s character demands that sin must face justice. No. There is no God to make such a demand. -The Bible tell the story of God No. It doesn't. It's the collected and contradictory superstitious musings of ancient people. working with people through the centuries to bring redemption to a world gone wrong. No. There was no initial state of perfection or innocence to go wrong. Disease, corruption and death have existed for at least 3 billion years. -God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took upon himself the judgment due all sin. No. Since there was no fall from grace, there is no such thing as sin and if there was a man called Jesus who died on a cross, that's all he did on that piece of wood. -He died and came back to life the third day. No. That's a myth. -Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God. No. There is no kingodm of God because there is no God. That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand everything about God, but I understand this narrative. There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery. I believe that all of the creation and life I see tells me there is a God. I guess we disagree. There's disagreement and then there's out-and-out denial of the evidence, Ironhorse. So are you in disagreement with the evidence or simply in denial of it? . . . This universe originated as an inflated decay-region of the Higgs field. Do you accept or deny the evidence for Cosmic Inflation? Humans (and all other animals) have evolved over billions of years from earlier forms of life. Do you accept or deny the evidence for Evolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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