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Goodbye Jesus

People Claiming They Have Been To Heaven.


Scottsman

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I write this as I see a movie has come out on this topic. I wont see the movie and dont care to. I can only assume the director will use music and lighting to draw an emotional conversion from infantile audience members.

 

When I was 12 years old I first heard the idea of someone dying, going to heaven and coming back. This is often followed up by writing a book on the whole experiece. My problem is this. It took me at 12 thirty seconds to reason this out.

You made it to heaven(allegedly).

You are therefore elect.

You come back to earth.

You write a book and make millions.

 

If you actually made it to heaven, you are elect. It is impossible for the elect to fall from grace even if you commit suicide or at very least take some extra chances. Why do these people not step in front if busses after leaving the hospital?

 

I see only two conclusions:

They didnt actually go to heaven.

Heaven is really not that great as they dont want to go back.

 

Occam's razor tells us the first answer is most likely.

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Guest ninurta

I went to heaven. It's a place deep inside any forest where you won't find another human being. Just you and those that go with you.

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Here's a link to a critical review of the movie by an ex-christian:

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/heaven-is-for-real-2014

 

Many who die on the operating table experience nothing at all, while others seem to float above the room and hear conversations, or see a bright light with their relatives and such. People from other religions and cultures tend to "see" their gods or whatever they expect to see, not Jesus. People on drugs like salvia divinorum see odd visions of angels rolling up reality, and it can be terrifying. In this movie, a child has an appendectomy and while under anesthesia "sees" heaven and later gives accounts of things that happened that he could not have normally known about.

 

I've read several accounts of near-death experiences, and reincarnation accounts. I take them with an open mind, and sometimes they make me go "hmm". But after following and promoting a preacher for 9 years who claimed to have raised the dead several times and seen every kind of wild and amazing miracle, and who had several missionaries under him who all claimed the same things, I'm used to anecdotes being used as evidence for things that never happened. I'm also aware that the mind can give us an intense virtual reality while in dream state or under drug influence. That virtual reality can be incredibly detailed and creative, far beyond what our conscious minds could create. But the reality in which we live daily doesn't change, and no gods intervene to answer our prayers or give us information that will really help humanity. The "just believe and have generic gooey faith" approach of movies like this are pathetic attempts at proselytizing, to suck in the unwary who are looking for a magic answer to life.

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It's interesting. People almost arbitrarily make the supernatural connection without even considering naturalistic possibilities. As stated, there is evidence from studies on altered states in people who meditate, people who are given psychoactive substances, and some people who have areas of their brain stimulated to really suggest a naturalistic mechanism.

 

Unfortunately, the best models do not adequately explain the phenomenon nor make consistent predictions. In other words, we do not know about NDE physiology in any great detail. However, there are some good leads and hypotheses. It's difficult to examine this phenomenon in a controlled setting with our current technology. It's exceedingly difficult to study the brain during a resuscitation.

 

With that said, why is it so hard to admit ignorance and continue to pursue leads and gather additional evidence? Why make the gigantic leap from "we don't know to it must be the afterlife?" Well, I assume the stories of personal revelation are powerful and compelling. Specifically when it comes to dealing with the real fact that everybody dies. Clearly, this creates significant conformation bias. All the more reason to study this as carefully as possible.

 

Neurophysiology is so profoundly complex, it's mind blowing. I completed a year sequence of human anatomy and physiology classes and labs about 15 years ago. Since then, our understanding of neurophysiology has changed significantly.

 

I think I've mentioned this in other threads, but I had an out of body experience as a young child. I had a severe pneumonia and had apparently collapsed in the bathroom. The experience must have been impactful as I remember little from that age with any detail or apparent detail as that experience. Should I write a movie or profess to have hidden knowledge or answers about the afterlife based on that single, subjective experience?

 

I was really sick, probably quite hypoxic and likely hypercapneic and experiencing a significant physiological stress response. I'm actually more interested in how alterations in homeostatic mechanisms impact the neurophysiology as opposed to attributing that experience to anything supernatural. Of course, when I believed in sky daddy and his son Zombie prime, I most certainly attributed that experience to something supernatural.

 

How about we explore all the naturalistic possibilities first and actually try to understand the phenomenon?

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That's an interesting testimony, RS.

 

Curiously enough there's another member of this forum who underwent a not disimilar experience when his heart stopped and he had an NDE.  Apparently this was related to major cardiac problems in his middle age.  I'm sorry to say that I can't be more specific about this because I'm recalling it from almost ten years ago, when he and I were members of Reggie Finley's now-defunct Infidelguy forum.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Vaughn_Finley,_Sr.

 

Like you he was a devout Christian believer when this trauma befell him. 

But unlike you he's neither willing nor able to see past his life-long obsession with Jesus Christ and so doesn't share your scientific skepticism, nor your interest in discovering the naturalistic causes of his experience.  For him, his NDE was another confirmation of what he'd already concluded about reality.  That spiritual, supernatural beings (angels and demons) operate invisibly all around us and that the God of the Bible is the one and only absolute truth in his life.

 

Who is he?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/user/6505-ordinaryclay/

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If I am to be as honest as possible, it is also possible that the experience I had was not as I remember. Years of bias, additional experience, the brain filling in gaps very well may have created a memory that does not accurately reflect the actual experience that I had. We all know how easily the brain is fooled and how easy it is to inject details into experiences that never actually happened. Therefore, I am forced to admit that the experience is even that much more subjective and suspect, particularly when it comes to making any non-naturalistic assertions, even tentative ones.

 

I have a slightly below average-to-average intelligence and I function as well as most people in society. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that I am special, that my physiology is unique, that somehow my subjective and completely personal experiences should be looked at with less scepticism as everybody else. Hey, admitting that you fall within 2 sigma of the mean can be a tough pill to swallow.  Reminds me of the Southpark Penis size episode where all the guys were upset about the new average (mean) size. They were finally satisfied when they were told they were all above average. Nobody likes to think that they are mediocre, but nearly every person will fall into the bell curve. There is no evidence to suggest that people having near death experiences are exceptionally unique. Perhaps that realisation will come, but I cannot believe without well-developed theories with good predictive models.

 

I have to admit that all naturalistic paths must be explored before I can entertain paths that are not naturalistic.  It is so easy to fall victim to human hubris and I do not want to be so pretentious to think that I am somehow immune to doing just that, even at the risk of invalidating my personal experiences or admitting my own neurological flaws. I can understand the reluctance that Clay has with looking at one’s self and their ideas and interpretations in such a critical manner. It is somewhat courageous in a sense to do so, but I am more interested in the truth and obtaining knowledge that is as free from bias as possible and ideas that can be reproduced and examined under controlled settings.

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Luke 23:43  "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (ASV)

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Luke 23:43  "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (ASV)

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

Jesus did not say Heaven but Paradise.

 

It is referred to as the intermediate state. It is where people await the resurrection.

The scriptures do not give much detail about this intermediate state. 

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Luke 23:43  "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." (ASV)

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

Jesus did not say Heaven but Paradise.

 

It is referred to as the intermediate state. It is where people await the resurrection.

The scriptures do not give much detail about this intermediate state. 

 

 

Purgatory exists, and is mentioned in the Bible? To quote Brother Jeff, "Glory!"

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

 

 

But the Bible does teach that people would have reached Heaven if God had not prevented them from completing the Tower of Bable.  The highest humans can achieve with stone and masonry is around 550 feet.  That is nothing compared to modern sky scrapers which in turn are nothing compared with passenger jets.  We've sent rockets into orbit, landed men on the moon and sent probes out of our star system but never bumped into the firmament the Bible teaches us is Heaven.

 

Maybe the Bible teaches wrong.

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Did the almighty decided to reveal false information about heaven to the mainstream protestant denominations then?

Or did he troll the SDAs et. al. who teach that the dead are dead until the resurection.

Or did he troll Ironhorse et. al. who each that the dead are in some kind of unknown paradise where god is with them.

 

Or are the christians just trolling each other in this pathetic game of "what does our imaginary friend want?"

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

The same church that tells you which posts to respond to ironhorse, and when to move the goalposts.

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

The same church that tells you which posts to respond to ironhorse, and when to move the goalposts.

 

 

 

That is a comment, not an answer to my question.

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

The same church that tells you which posts to respond to ironhorse, and when to move the goalposts.

 

 

 

That is a comment, not an answer to my question.

 

 

I found the Nazarene church to be that legalistic.  They had rules about how far away you had to be from somebody consuming alcohol while you eat.  It wasn't enough that you didn't drink yourself you couldn't be at the same table with somebody who drank.  Suggestive movies were a no-no.

 

I'm sure other flavors of Christianity are like that too.

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

How can you possibly be that ignorant of your own religion?  

 

Many churches make rules about what movies you can watch, like Baptist and Pentecostal churches for a start.  Is it even possible that you wouldn't know this?

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Yes is does.  You are a liar, Ironhorse.

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Yes is does.  You are a liar, Ironhorse.

 

He might just be confused, because the bible teaches a lot of contradictory stuff, especially about the supposed afterlife. He may have forgotten which verses he was supposed to be ignoring.

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Yes is does.  You are a liar, Ironhorse.

 

He might just be confused, because the bible teaches a lot of contradictory stuff, especially about the supposed afterlife. He may have forgotten which verses he was supposed to be ignoring.

 

 

I remember my parents arguing over this question. By the end, my father had become an atheist (yay, Dad!) and my mother had learned to keep it to herself because no one else in the family cared.

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

The same church that tells you which posts to respond to ironhorse, and when to move the goalposts.

 

 

 

That is a comment, not an answer to my question.

 

 

Who are you to get bothered when somebody doesn't answer your question... 4 minutes after you asked it?

.

.

.

 

Take a number and get in line!

Ficino, myself and several others are... STILL ...waiting for your answers on various questions, Ironhorse!

.

.

.

 

No!

I'm not going to tell which ones and where they are.  Do the work and find them for yourself!

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My family wants to go see 'Heaven Is For Real'... A couple of weeks ago it was 'Noah'... and there is some other movie... 'God Is Not Dead"... Yikes, what's with all the religious movies? I didn't watch ANY movies for over 10 years because of the rules of my last church and now every freakin' movie has to be religious. Bummed... 

 

What kind of church makes rules about what movies you can watch?

 

 

The same church that tells you which posts to respond to ironhorse, and when to move the goalposts.

 

 

 

That is a comment, not an answer to my question.

 

 

No ironhorse, it was an answer. 

 

That same church, if it is following it's core beliefs and it's Bible, will even teach you what to think, and when to think it, let alone what movies to watch.

 

You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it, but if it's easier for you to be a smartass artful dodger than an ambassador for your Christ, more power to you.  Happy Easter.  

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Netherlands reformed church teaches you cant own a tv.

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