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Goodbye Jesus

People Claiming They Have Been To Heaven.


Scottsman

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. 

 

 

That is not what the book of Ecclesiastes says.  Are you calling the author a liar?

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66 books, written by anonymous authors, left without any original manuscripts, been voted and argued over which books to include and take out hundred of times, had many editions with different books altogether.

 

And the christian god is so awesome that he's omnipotent.  He had the very power to make sure everything lined up.  But he didn't do that. 

 

If he's omnipotent, and allowed his inspired word to be bastardized so much, then he's evil.

 

Or he could just be an invention of people over time, taken and collected from other myths and legends.  Hmmmm.

 

EDIT:  Yes, it is that simple.  We humans have made it possible for a 10 year old child in New York to send an email to his deployed mom in Germany and it will be word-for-word bang on accurate.  What's more, we made it possible so that the mom in Germany can then re-transmit that letter to her parents in Idaho, with the original message being bang on accurate.

 

 

I keep reading these accusations of 'contradictions' in the Bible and

how every word should 'line up.'

 

What do you want? Gold Plates falling from the sky?

 

I'm just the opposite: To me the idea that God allowed humans to be a part of the story (and help pin it)

much more fun.

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66 books, written by anonymous authors, left without any original manuscripts, been voted and argued over which books to include and take out hundred of times, had many editions with different books altogether.

 

And the christian god is so awesome that he's omnipotent.  He had the very power to make sure everything lined up.  But he didn't do that. 

 

If he's omnipotent, and allowed his inspired word to be bastardized so much, then he's evil.

 

Or he could just be an invention of people over time, taken and collected from other myths and legends.  Hmmmm.

 

EDIT:  Yes, it is that simple.  We humans have made it possible for a 10 year old child in New York to send an email to his deployed mom in Germany and it will be word-for-word bang on accurate.  What's more, we made it possible so that the mom in Germany can then re-transmit that letter to her parents in Idaho, with the original message being bang on accurate.

 

 

I keep reading these accusations of 'contradictions' in the Bible and

how every word should 'line up.'

 

What do you want? Gold Plates falling from the sky?

 

I'm just the opposite: To me the idea that God allowed humans to be a part of the story (and help pin it)

much more fun.

 

 

Ah but which God?  Ra?  Zeus?  Odin?  Amaterasu?  Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 

You have nothing to show that your God is any better than the thousands of other gods.

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66 books, written by anonymous authors, left without any original manuscripts, been voted and argued over which books to include and take out hundred of times, had many editions with different books altogether.

 

And the christian god is so awesome that he's omnipotent.  He had the very power to make sure everything lined up.  But he didn't do that. 

 

If he's omnipotent, and allowed his inspired word to be bastardized so much, then he's evil.

 

Or he could just be an invention of people over time, taken and collected from other myths and legends.  Hmmmm.

 

EDIT:  Yes, it is that simple.  We humans have made it possible for a 10 year old child in New York to send an email to his deployed mom in Germany and it will be word-for-word bang on accurate.  What's more, we made it possible so that the mom in Germany can then re-transmit that letter to her parents in Idaho, with the original message being bang on accurate.

 

 

I keep reading these accusations of 'contradictions' in the Bible and

how every word should 'line up.'

 

What do you want? Gold Plates falling from the sky?

 

I'm just the opposite: To me the idea that God allowed humans to be a part of the story (and help pin it)

much more fun.

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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Guest afireinside

Evidence is so old school. God doesn't do the burning bushes, serpents on rods, dividing seas ANYMORE!!! That was way back in the day before he got bored with his creation

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Way back in the day before the invention of cameras, camcorders, youtube.  Amazing how jesus/yaweh/allah managed to part whole seas, send plagues orders of magnitude worse than what sith lords can do, and be a general pain in the ass before he can be recorded.

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66 books, written by anonymous authors, left without any original manuscripts, been voted and argued over which books to include and take out hundred of times, had many editions with different books altogether.

 

And the christian god is so awesome that he's omnipotent.  He had the very power to make sure everything lined up.  But he didn't do that. 

 

If he's omnipotent, and allowed his inspired word to be bastardized so much, then he's evil.

 

Or he could just be an invention of people over time, taken and collected from other myths and legends.  Hmmmm.

 

EDIT:  Yes, it is that simple.  We humans have made it possible for a 10 year old child in New York to send an email to his deployed mom in Germany and it will be word-for-word bang on accurate.  What's more, we made it possible so that the mom in Germany can then re-transmit that letter to her parents in Idaho, with the original message being bang on accurate.

 

 

I keep reading these accusations of 'contradictions' in the Bible and

how every word should 'line up.'

 

What do you want? Gold Plates falling from the sky?

 

I'm just the opposite: To me the idea that God allowed humans to be a part of the story (and help pin it)

much more fun.

 

 

An obvious sign would be nice, considering that failing to believe in his existence results in eternal torment.  

 

Do you imagine people burning in hell for the lulz or something?  Maybe that is fun for you, but not for me.  

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The Bible does not teach that people are in Heaven now.

Yes is does.  You are a liar, Ironhorse.

 

 

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

 

~1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

 

This is my understanding of scripture:

At present, no one is walking around Heaven in a physical body. I believe at death our spirits returns to God and we

await the resurrection.  

 

 

Nope that's wrong.

 

Matthew 17: 1-3

 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

(See also Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30)

 

Elijah is in heaven, in his physical resurrection body - not as a ghost.

 

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Moses died and was buried...

 

Deuteronomy 34:5 & 6

And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.

He buried himin Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

 

But, to appear before Jesus and the disciples, along with Elijah, his body had to be physically raised from death.

 

Jude 1:9

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
 
Q.
Why would Satan be bothered about the body of a dead prophet?
 
A.
Because Jesus planned to show his disciples that he would conquer the power of death.   That's why he talked about his coming physical resurrection from death, with two physically raised prophets of Israel.  That's why Satan tried to interfere and why Michael disputed with him about Moses' body.  If Moses were still a ghost, then why the dispute about some bones?
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Also, what happened to the patriarch Enoch, Ironhorse?
 
Genesis 5: 23 & 24.
23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years.
24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away
 
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
 
Since Enoch did not die a physical death, he cannot be a ghost or a spirit.
But, since he was taken away, where did he go? 
 
The 'intermediate state' of Paradise?   As per the thief on the cross?
The 'intermediate state' of the bosom of Abraham?  As per Lazarus the beggar?
The 'intermediate state' of Sheol?  As per the prophet Samuel?
 
Or, if you run out of halfway houses to solve your Biblical contradictions, why not just bite the bullet and say that God made an exception for Enoch, so that he's now physically in Heaven?
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So, please modify your statement about the Bible not teaching that people are in heaven now.
According to the Bible, there are (at least) three people in heaven now.
 
Thanks,
 
BAA
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For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

So much for cloud9_99.gif

 

I have heard pastors discredit the entire book of Ecclesiastes, claiming that this was the period of Solomon's life where he was led astray by his pagan wives.  Funny, how it's always the woman's fault that the man of gawd falls away.  

 

The book is a bit of a let down considering it was written by the wisest guy who ever lived, but the verse you mentioned is actually one of my favorite bible verses.

 

 

Ecclesiastes was my gateway to atheism. 

 

 

I can totally understand that.  The book seems to contradict the rest of the bible, yet makes more sense.biggrin.png

 

 

 

Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

 

 

Gee, thanks for clearing that up for me. Maybe you should petition the church to remove it from the official Cannon since you have greater insight into what is and its not the word of god. smiliegojerkit.gif

 

And just to put a finer point on it, Herr Genius IronHorse, I figured out Ecclesiastes were the private thoughts of the alleged wisest man who ever lived about two paragraphs into the book. Anyone with about a 6th grade level reading comprehension could figure that out. On the surface the book is about a man who had everything yet in the end faces his own mortality and realizes everything is dust in the wind and vanity. Now what in the world does that sound like? Hmm....that kind of sounds like life for humans on planet Earth. The wisest man in the world lays out bare the essence of life and all be damned....it completely agrees with reality. If ever there were a book intended solely for the clergy, who mostly know what they are peddling is a farce, it would have to be Ecclesiastes.

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

Finding this forum is hands down the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. Thank you. I have never so great an ass kicking than the one given to christians here with quotes from their own book,

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

Finding this forum is hands down the greatest thing that has ever happened to me. Thank you. I have never so great an ass kicking than the one given to christians here with quotes from their own book,

 

We do what we can.

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!

I am a dummkopf!   WendyDoh.gif

.

.

.

 

Matthew 27: 52 & 53

"...and the tombs broke open.  The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."

"They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

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.

.

Q.

So where are these many... physically resurrected ...people now, two thousand years later?

 

A.

In... H-E-A-V-E-N...!

 

 

 

 

 

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

 

 

 

Again...one cannot pull a verse out of context, time, theme and make a correct judgement.

 

Ecclesiastes is a book that contains man’s wisdom “under the sun.” The writer is conveying his experiences in life and what he has seen. He knew that without God, life is meaningless, transitory, fleeting, useless, empty, and futile. He does mentions God forty times in the book and only in God is there complete understanding.

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

 

 

 

Again...one cannot pull a verse out of context, time, theme and make a correct judgement.

 

Ecclesiastes is a book that contains man’s wisdom “under the sun.” The writer is conveying his experiences in life and what he has seen. He knew that without God, life is meaningless, transitory, fleeting, useless, empty, and futile. He mentions God forty times in the book.

 

jesus god damn christ, TinPony!  How many times does this need to be explained to you?  If the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of an omnipotent, omniscient god, given as his inspired revelation of himself, then the message should be the same today as it was when it was given.  We should be able to read it and understand that message without extensive knowledge of ancient hebrew culture and language.  Like Romeo and Juliet.

 

Either all scripture is inspired by god, or not all scripture is inspired by god.  Which is it, TinPony?

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

 

 

 

Again...one cannot pull a verse out of context, time, theme and make a correct judgement.

 

Ecclesiastes is a book that contains man’s wisdom “under the sun.” The writer is conveying his experiences in life and what he has seen. He knew that without God, life is meaningless, transitory, fleeting, useless, empty, and futile. He does mentions God forty times in the book and only in God is there complete understanding.

 

 

Please, don't quote another scripture on this forum without including the entire context from which it was plucked. If you are certain the scripture you are quoting contains an ambiguous translation then please include a full exegesis of the root Hebrew or Greek words so we can be really sure what it says. If this is the standard by which we need to understand scripture then you should be held to it as well.

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Guest afireinside

What I can't understand about scripture is it is way to open to interpretation. We live in a time where we are more educated than ever and we still can't work out what half the shit means, or agree on anything because once one group emphasises one aspect the whole bible had to be re-organised to fit that perspective. It's all fucked up, why did God not make it simple?

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christian: entire bible is the word of god, this is the proof "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

christian: book of solomon (which is in the bible) is not the word of god, you taken it out of context

 

which one is it?or should christian have another translation, bible ironhorse version where he removed every book, part, and verses that are not compatible with his view 

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christian: entire bible is the word of god, this is the proof "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

christian: book of solomon (which is in the bible) is not the word of god, you taken it out of context

 

which one is it?or should christian have another translation, bible ironhorse version where he removed every book, part, and verses that are not compatible with his view

That wouldn't constitute a book, it would be a flyer

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christian: entire bible is the word of god, this is the proof "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

christian: book of solomon (which is in the bible) is not the word of god, you taken it out of context

 

which one is it?or should christian have another translation, bible ironhorse version where he removed every book, part, and verses that are not compatible with his view

That wouldn't constitute a book, it would be a flyer

 

That actually did make me laugh out loud, so I will now type "lol" as though I were a young and "with it" hipster, instead of a washed-up old redneck.  Here goes:

 

LOL!

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christian: entire bible is the word of god, this is the proof "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," 2 Timothy 3:16

christian: book of solomon (which is in the bible) is not the word of god, you taken it out of context

 

which one is it?or should christian have another translation, bible ironhorse version where he removed every book, part, and verses that are not compatible with his view

That wouldn't constitute a book, it would be a flyer

 

Bible Iron Horse Flyer Translation

 

chapter 1

 

1. There is only one universal God.

2. God created the heavens and the earth and all living things.

3. God created humans in his own image. God created humans to

share love and life with them.

4.Lucifer, a fallen angel, tempted the first man and woman. The result was

that sin and death entered the world.

5.Our image has been broken by sin. Sin is missing the mark of that which is right and true.

6.God’s character demands that sin must face justice. 

7.The Bible tell the story of God

working with people through the centuries to bring redemption

to a world gone wrong.

8.God came to earth as a human. On the cross Jesus took

upon himself the judgment due all sin.

9.He died and came back to life the third day.

10.Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their

faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

end of chapter

end of bible

 

it summarized into new golden rule flyer edition:

1. I never wrong

2. if I am wrong, look at rule number 1

 

footnote:

That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand

everything about God, but I understand this narrative.

There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in

the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery.

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Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. The book is not to be view as direct words from God,

but his thoughts and views on life.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"  2 Timothy 3:16

 

FAIL!!!

 

 

 

Again...one cannot pull a verse out of context, time, theme and make a correct judgement.

 

Ecclesiastes is a book that contains man’s wisdom “under the sun.” The writer is conveying his experiences in life and what he has seen. He knew that without God, life is meaningless, transitory, fleeting, useless, empty, and futile. He mentions God forty times in the book.

 

jesus god damn christ, TinPony!  How many times does this need to be explained to you?  If the bible is the inerrant, infallible word of an omnipotent, omniscient god, given as his inspired revelation of himself, then the message should be the same today as it was when it was given.  We should be able to read it and understand that message without extensive knowledge of ancient hebrew culture and language.  Like Romeo and Juliet.

 

Either all scripture is inspired by god, or not all scripture is inspired by god.  Which is it, TinPony?

 

So, which is it, TinPony?  Is all scripture inspired by god or not?  How are Bono and Bob Dylan gonna get you out of this one?

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What I can't understand about scripture is it is way to open to interpretation. We live in a time where we are more educated than ever and we still can't work out what half the shit means, or agree on anything because once one group emphasises one aspect the whole bible had to be re-organised to fit that perspective. It's all fucked up, why did God not make it simple?

 

 

I agree with you that parts of the Bible are difficult to understand. There are passages

that I can't interpret. I don't know the answer to some.

 

But to me, the message about Jesus and what he claimed to be are simple to understand.

The fact that I can't understand parts of it, just makes it much more interesting to read and study.

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Ironpony's christianese to plain English:

 

I believe the easy parts of the bible, they feel good!
There's disturbing shit in the bible that don't line up with the feel good stories!

I'll believe the easy feel good stories and just say "lord works in mysterious ways" about the disturbing shit!

Easy!

 

smiliejerkoff.gif

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