Christians Please Stop Being Arrogant

[Roz]

 

-Because of this, anyone who accepts Jesus and places their
faith in Him have eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

 

 

That is what I believe are the central messages of the Bible. I do not understand

everything about God, but I understand this narrative.

 

There are many mysteries about God that I do not comprehend. I believe that even in

the Kingdom of God there will be things about God that will remain a mystery.

 

This is from the hippie christie Ironhorse.

This can be used by all christians as their get-out-of-trying-to-explain-their-faith-with-reason.

 

There are many many doctrinal differences fundies will have with IH, and even liberal christians will disagree with him on more than a few points (IE: the different interpretations of Rev. 20).  Regardless, virtually all christians will use their 100% sure bet on christianity to affect the rest of our lives.

 

Please stop being arrogant and use your 100%-sure-yet-totally-not-sure leaps of blind faith to:

• exclude 2 consenting adults from the legal privileges of marriage
• ensure that your particular faith based special creation myth be given government-endorsed status by being taught alongside real science
• give enormous amounts of aid to Israel and approve of them acting like assholes
• enshrine your 10 commandments (version 1.0 of course, ver. 2.0 is totally different yet it's the biblically endorsed 10) in courthouses and other public property
• influence our entire system of government voting for who's the more faithful and not who's got the better ideas for governance (btw, nothing against Republicans, but man that party's locked alongside the fucking immoral majority.)

Stop it christians, I for one am sick and tired you using your blind obedience instead of reason. 

[Thurisaz]

Their minds are built around obedience instead of reason. At least the minds of the hardcore morontheist cases. You can just as well ask them to stop thinking anything at all for the rest of their lives.

 

More liberal/moderate ones can often be another thing, as can those who secretly harbor doubts already. They're a very different thing altogether.

[DoubtingNate]

I have seen many, many apologetic types presenting their case for Christianity trying to all logical and stuff.. again and again I keep hearing the phrase 'it seems more reasonable that...'   As if they are in a position to declare what is and isn't reasonable, based on how it 'seems' to them.  You can't get a then from an IF unless you work really really hard to establish that if.  You can't just say 'it seems reasonable,' or 'Since God is the best explanation that I know about ...' and expect to have a productive discussion!!!

 

I really got into it with someone recently on FB over the Ontological argument.  Which, IMO, is the most convoluted argument for God's existence ever devised.

 

At one point he flat out told me that he refused to read any of the books I was recommending to him, for some arrogant confusing reason.  He seems well intentioned, and really doesn't want me to burn in hell forever, but I don't understand his motive for posting all his stuff on FB unless he is just waiting for his seminary buddies to pat him on the back.

[mymistake]

He seems well intentioned, and really doesn't want me to burn in hell forever, but I don't understand his motive for posting all his stuff on FB unless he is just waiting for his seminary buddies to pat him on the back.

 

 

Don't you get it?  Jesus is watching him post all that stuff.  Christians do it to please Jesus.  The creator of the universe is watching us all and expects things of us.  This is the reason why Christians can't avoid being arrogant.  They project part of their own ego as an all powerful god.  This is what it means to be a Christian so it's unavoidable.  Christians try to be humble with the rest of their ego.  They even rip apart their own self esteem, calling their own self "filthy rags" and so on.  But they are in a deep, personal relationship with the Creator of the universe who can kill anybody on a whim.

 

"Barrak Obama doesn't talk about me much but I am his best friend and we communicate telepathically.  The leader of the free world doesn't make any decisions without first consulting me."

[boftx]

People who think they know everything are especially annoying to those of us who do.

[Deidre]

Well, most of us probably can think back to a time when we sounded like that person, too. When I followed Christianity, it had nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with emotion and even fear. I understand why Chriistians feel as they do, because I once did.

[Roz]

Posted this because in my experience I needed to be hit quite hard, metaphorically speaking. 

The fundies that I know won't be budged by mere appeals to science, to logic.  No, this is one of my ways of taking that metaphysical ham and cheese sandwich and throwing it squarely at their face.

 

Their god instituted a system whereby people can permanently own other people, gave license to commit rape, gave direct orders to commit mass slaughter.  That was the god, the loving god that I thought I knew. 

 

Yes, I fully understand that it takes different approaches to get through different people, but for those requiring a sandwich straight in the face, I'm ready for you. 

[boftx]

In my experience, there is little or no correlation between arrogance and religious faith (of any kind.) If anything, I would speculate that arrogance becomes more likely (or noticeable) as one increases one's body of knowledge of any given subject.

 

That said, arrogance can become tempered if one comes to understand that increasing one's knowledge also illuminates the fact that there is even more to learn.

[Roz]

It's true that arrogance will develop as someone becomes more familiar with a subject, but religion by its nature places one area of study (their own faith) above every other.  They're granted "the truth" and yes they'll crave more and more things to learn, but only about their faith. 

 

You've stated that arrogance can be tempered when one realizes there's always more things to learn, but the way I see it religion goes a step further.  It actively blocks all other subjects of study, or at the very least coerces the individual to go ahead and study, but only through "god glasses."  The jesus googles are needed lest ye be damned. 

 

Case in point, a pastor from my christian sect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpKtZcIIS0Q

[DoubtingNate]

Well, most of us probably can think back to a time when we sounded like that person, too. When I followed Christianity, it had nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with emotion and even fear. I understand why Chriistians feel as they do, because I once did.

I do understand. I've pointed out jn the past , arguing to atheists that certain things 'seem more reasonable.' And look where I'm posting now.

[xtify]

In my experience, there is little or no correlation between arrogance and religious faith (of any kind.) If anything, I would speculate that arrogance becomes more likely (or noticeable) as one increases one's body of knowledge of any given subject.

 

That said, arrogance can become tempered if one comes to understand that increasing one's knowledge also illuminates the fact that there is even more to learn.

 

You disagree that christians come across as arrogant when they claim to have special knowledge, or claim things by the authority of the bible?  I would describe most of them as being worse than arrogant.  They are not experts in the areas that they claim to know things about by means of the spirit, or by gawds word.  This is especially true when it comes to evolution.

[Deidre]

I do understand. I've pointed out jn the past , arguing to atheists that certain things 'seem more reasonable.' And look where I'm posting now.

Perhaps, Congratulations are in order now? LOL

 

Just my two cents worth on arrogance, and religion. Religion is really more about ignorance of truth, than it is arrogance. I suppose one could be lost in ignorance, and appear arrogant, but when I look back to my own days in Christianity, and compare it to now...I was more ignorant than anything else.

[boftx]

 

You disagree that christians come across as arrogant when they claim to have special knowledge, or claim things by the authority of the bible?  I would describe most of them as being worse than arrogant.  They are not experts in the areas that they claim to know things about by means of the spirit, or by gawds word.  This is especially true when it comes to evolution.

 

 

I do not say that Christians are not arrogant, I say that they are no more (and no less) arrogant that any other group without regard to whether the classification involves religion.

 

For example, programmers can be classified by what languages they prefer, and believe me, discussions about what is the best language to use can rival any debate about religious belief. Clearly one can be a Christian programmer, or a Hindu programmer, or an atheist programmer. Arrogance is completely independent of that.

 

I could possibly make an argument that arrogance is an evolutionary advantage (since it seems to be a fundamental hallmark of being human) in that the person who actively promotes themselves as being better might actually find more partners to mate with since no single partner will stay with a person with extreme arrogance for very long. (Genghis Khan comes to mind.)

[Guest afireinside]

I think arrogance is a front.

 

Part of every person who calls themselves a Christian is insecurity about what they believe. How many of us would have shared our faith with non-believers and avoided being honest and telling then that we actually have doubt and fear that this God we promote actually even accepts us?. Arrogance in a lot of people is a mask they wear. Others are just arrogant to the core and believe they are special but I think they are few and far between.

[xtify]

 

 

You disagree that christians come across as arrogant when they claim to have special knowledge, or claim things by the authority of the bible?  I would describe most of them as being worse than arrogant.  They are not experts in the areas that they claim to know things about by means of the spirit, or by gawds word.  This is especially true when it comes to evolution.

 

 

I do not say that Christians are not arrogant, I say that they are no more (and no less) arrogant that any other group without regard to whether the classification involves religion.

 

For example, programmers can be classified by what languages they prefer, and believe me, discussions about what is the best language to use can rival any debate about religious belief. Clearly one can be a Christian programmer, or a Hindu programmer, or an atheist programmer. Arrogance is completely independent of that.

 

I could possibly make an argument that arrogance is an evolutionary advantage (since it seems to be a fundamental hallmark of being human) in that the person who actively promotes themselves as being better might actually find more partners to mate with since no single partner will stay with a person with extreme arrogance for very long. (Genghis Khan comes to mind.)

 

 

Yes, self promotion would be advantageous with regards to mate selection.  Perhaps, arrogance is a term that needs to be defined.  When I think of someone who is arrogant, the label has a negative connotation implying that they only think they know what they are talking about.  It's possible there's a better word for that.

[boftx]

The difference between being arrogant and being an arrogant bastard is that us arrogant bastards are usually right.

[Roz]

Programmers can prefer one language over another, but I doubt any C++ programmer will say to his Java coding mate:  "Let go of your dependence of a virtual runtime environment, or else you're going to burn in robot hell for all eternity."

 

I doubt any C++ programmer will push for laws mandating the teaching of how Christ++ coded the world in 6 days and spent day 7 debugging it.

 

I doubt the C++ programmer will say to his son "stop dating that javascript whore!  You're going to be unequally yoked!"

 

I doubt the C++ programmer will push for a .Net Coder + .Net Coder marriage ban

[xtify]

Programmers can prefer one language over another, but I doubt any C++ programmer will say to his Java coding mate:  "Let go of your dependence of a virtual runtime environment, or else you're going to burn in robot hell for all eternity."

 

I doubt any C++ programmer will push for laws mandating the teaching of how Christ++ coded the world in 6 days and spent day 7 debugging it.

 

I doubt the C++ programmer will say to his son "stop dating that javascript whore!  You're going to be unequally yoked!"

 

I doubt the C++ programmer will push for a .Net Coder + .Net Coder marriage ban

 

Hahahahahhah. Lmao.

[boftx]

Roz, you would be surprised. I can easily think that opinions about Perl vs. Python or Java could brink up a relationship. 

[DoubtingNate]

I think it has to do lots with basic curiosity and inquisitiveness, or lack thereof. One of the first people I told (atheist buddy in another forum) what I was going through, he basically told me he knew if come around because I seem like an inquisitive person that wouldn't be able to just settle on one religion.

 

I can't imagine ever saying 'I refuse to read this or that book because it disagrees with me.' Or just not wanting to know about where we come from, and where are sacred texts come from. Some people are easily satisfied with the answers they are given, or are not prepared for the emotional price that comes with breaking from one's upbringing. Or are simply just not that interested, if their relationship with Jesus is satisfying to them, and some educated (?) people have convinced them it's really real. I think this can come across as arrogance depending on ones personality, but for lots of people I think there is more to it than that.

[Roz]

Good points the lot of you, I'll gladly burn in robot hell with you all

[boftx]

I think that a more practical request to make of Christians (or any other group) would be that they not impose their beliefs on others who disagree with them. In fact, it is my opinion that the New Testament clearly says that to do so is wrong, that each person is responsible for their own salvation and it can not be forced upon them.

 

It does not matter if the group in question is religious or secular (think various social activists.)

 

I see little difference at times between those who say you must teach creationism as science, and those who would ban lunchtime Bible study groups at school. Both are examples of the same intolerance and arrogance.

[Roz]

Isn't imposing one's beliefs on another arrogance?  I think it is.  If there's an atheist bully saying to a christian classmate "stop praying or else I'll punch you" then he's both arrogant and violent, and must be called out as such as well as disciplined.

 

I should've defined the word better, oops on that one. 

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

 

• an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions

Why do the christians want to ban gay marriage?  It says so in the bible.  The bible tells them that the bible's true.  Their whole religion is set up so that they have the "truth" and they have to spread it to the whole world.  The religion tells them that their beliefs are better/superior. 

 

You're right, it doesn't matter if the arrogance is from secular or religious sources, it's arrogance.  Right now, in America, it's largely going one way, with christianity imposing its worldview and belief on non-believing citizens. 

 

If I were living in a mostly secular America and there's suddenly a ban on any religion, I'll oppose that.

[boftx]

Isn't imposing one's beliefs on another arrogance?  I think it is.  If there's an atheist bully saying to a christian classmate "stop praying or else I'll punch you" then he's both arrogant and violent, and must be called out as such as well as disciplined.

 

[ ... deletia ... ]

 

Why do the christians want to ban gay marriage?  It says so in the bible.  The bible tells them that the bible's true.  Their whole religion is set up so that they have the "truth" and they have to spread it to the whole world.  The religion tells them that their beliefs are better/superior. 

 

[ ... deletia ... ]

 

I was trying to avoid the hot-button of gay rights, but ...

 

I agree with what you said, but let's consider the recent case in Arizona involving a photographer who refused to provide service to a gay couple and suffered legal consequences for doing so. Where does one draw the line? Does that imply that a gay couple could sue a church for refusing to perform a marriage ceremony for them?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I think it has to do lots with basic curiosity and inquisitiveness, or lack thereof. One of the first people I told (atheist buddy in another forum) what I was going through, he basically told me he knew if come around because I seem like an inquisitive person that wouldn't be able to just settle on one religion.

 

I can't imagine ever saying 'I refuse to read this or that book because it disagrees with me.' Or just not wanting to know about where we come from, and where are sacred texts come from. Some people are easily satisfied with the answers they are given, or are not prepared for the emotional price that comes with breaking from one's upbringing. Or are simply just not that interested, if their relationship with Jesus is satisfying to them, and some educated (?) people have convinced them it's really real. I think this can come across as arrogance depending on ones personality, but for lots of people I think there is more to it than that.

When I was a xian, I refused to read anything that disagreed with me, and I didn't particularly care where we or our sacred texts came from.  But how I describe myself now is that I am an inquisitive person who needs to know these things, and many other things too.  That inquisitiveness was latent, it was squashed down by religion and it only emerged after I had stopped believing in God.  So I guess, I was arrogant and now I'm not.  I once was lost, but now am found.