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Goodbye Jesus

Problems With Parables


ficino

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My problem here is that Jesus' idea of god does not seem like someone who reaps what he doesn't sow. There is all kinds of subtext about Rome, proxy rulers like Herod, the corrupt temple system, Messianic expectations, etc. I could be wrong; there are Bible scholars on both sides here. But I don't see Jesus teaching his followers to work so diligently for a corrupt system. That money didn't come out of nowhere - it was tax money extorted from the peasant class who was getting shafted by both the Romans and the puppet kings ruling on their behalf. The faithful subjects aren't investing in a mutual fund - they're raising taxes and getting a piece for themselves. So his response to this would be much more subversive, and more about dropping out of society and starting a new thing, ie, the kingdom of God. Especially in Luke, where he is shown to be a champion for underdogs - tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, etc.

 

It is interesting to consider it as just some veiled commentary about Roman rulership.  Still, I don't see the subtext as meaning he wasn't for it.  His message isn't very meaningful if all it is intended to do is point out Rome's modus operandi.  Jesus is supposed to be the messiah, he is supposed to give spiritual messages and help lead the people.  To the best of my knowledge, he never spoke out against Rome in the four gospels, even when he was crucified.  There are also verses such as, "render unto Caesar...", that would indicate he did not support resistance to authority.  He also tells people that if a soldier asks you to carry his stuff 1 mile, carry it 2 (that would be Roman soldiers, as per the times).

 

Also, YHVH actually was a brutal ruler, who reaped where he did not sow.  The entire story of 'giving' the land of Canaan to Abraham, and all the other land acquisitions that first had to be cleared of occupants using brute force.  Rome was probably less brutal than certain times with warlord wah-hey-vah-hey.

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Note that Isaiah 61:1 has the buzzwords "pneuma," "kurios," AND "christos" all in the same sentence. The NT writers basically built the Jesus figure around those LXX buzzwords. 

 

I don't have your language skills.  Can you please elaborate for the sake of the rest of us?

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There is more to 'render unto Caesar' than meets the eye. The Jews would have understood everything as be belonging to God, and would have gotten a very different message than simply 'pay your taxes.'

 

Rome was pretty brutal. But they were basically just the latest in a series of foreign empires occupying the promised land.

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There is more to 'render unto Caesar' than meets the eye. The Jews would have understood everything as be belonging to God, and would have gotten a very different message than simply 'pay your taxes.'

 

Rome was pretty brutal. But they were basically just the latest in a series of foreign empires occupying the promised land.

 

If you have the time, could you please elaborate on the more than meets the eye part?

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I just read a really interesting article about this.. Will share it when I get a chance.

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I just read a really interesting article about this.. Will share it when I get a chance.

 

Sounds good, thanks.

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Another more practical reason for Jesus to be secretive is that lots of his parables were veiled ways of speaking out against Rome and/or the Jewish elite. He probably realized he was going to be executed at some point, and didn't want to go out prematurely before he had made the full preaching circuit with his message.

 

Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

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How can they 'keep' if they don't understand it in the first place?  How does one 'keep' the parable of the sower?  Should the original audience have been praying to God to make them more like the good soil?

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How can they 'keep' if they don't understand it in the first place?  How does one 'keep' the parable of the sower?  Should the original audience have been praying to God to make them more like the good soil?

 

The farmer's task is to toss the seeds. And I see what you are asking...people should be seeking God and praying

to be good soil.

 

"Maybe the nonbeliever cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

~Author Unknown

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Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."  John 18:20

 

Damn, TinPony!  Don't you ever get tired of the contradictions in your holy book?

 

 

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"Maybe the nonbeliever cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

~Author Unknown

Oh, yes.  Now we're back to the "No True Scotsman" bullshit.  We didn't find god because we just didn't look for him hard enough.  You know what, TinPony?  You weren't there!  You have no idea how hard I searched for god.  You have no idea how deep into despair I plunged when I realized that he wasn't real.  And I plunged that deep because of how hard I had searched.  You can't speak for anyone but yourself, because you haven't walked a mile, or even two feet, in any of our shoes.  If you can't accept that then to hell with you.

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"Maybe the nonbeliever cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

~Author Unknown

 

 

 

Show us a picture of God then.  Stand next to God and take a selfie.  When God leaves a message on your answer phone make it available online.  When God visits you make a vid and post it to youtube.

 

Maybe you cannot find God for the same reason Lock Ness Monster hunters cannot find the Lock Ness Monster.

 

 

(I've never heard of a thief who claims that the police do not exist.)

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Another more practical reason for Jesus to be secretive is that lots of his parables were veiled ways of speaking out against Rome and/or the Jewish elite. He probably realized he was going to be executed at some point, and didn't want to go out prematurely before he had made the full preaching circuit with his message.

 

Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

Sigh. Once again, Ironhorse, instead of giving solid reasons why we should believe that improbable stuff in an OP actually happened, you merely quote ANOTHER verse or two, sneak in a little dig at the poster's character, and say something that does not resolve the improbabilities inherent in the verses quoted in the OP.

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I thought the best thieves know exactly where the policemen are, and where they're going to be. 

Maybe that's why the thief on the cross got caught.  He didn't think things through.

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From the article above:

 

"With one straightforward counter-question, Jesus skillfully points out that the claims of God and Caesar are mutually exclusive. If one's faith is in God, then God is owed everything; Caesar's claims are necessarily illegitimate, and he is therefore owed nothing. If, on the other hand, one's faith is in Caesar, God's claims are illegitimate, and Caesar is owed, at the very least, the coin which bears his image.
 
Jesus' counter-question simply invites His listeners to choose allegiances. Remarkably, He has escaped the trap through a clever rhetorical gambit; He has authoritatively refuted His opponents' hostile question by basing His answer in scripture, and yet, He never overtly answers the question originally posed to Him. No wonder that St. Matthew ends the Tribute Episode this way: "When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away."

 

I guess we can agree to disagree, because I don't see it this way.  The article is based on some form of apologetics, trying to make it seem like Jesus was against Rome, and against paying taxes to corrupt rulers.  But, the character, Jesus, clearly states to give the coin to caesar, and give to god what is god's.  I agree that he is basically using wit to dodge being arrested, but he agrees that taxes should be paid.  I'm curious why the son of god would fear being arrested in the first place (?).

 

Many people want to believe that Jesus' message agrees with their own opinions, and do whatever they can to project certain intentions onto the text.  I became a non-believer by stopping and reading the text for what it actually says, not what I wanted it to say.  A picture is worth a thousand words, and the image of beautiful Jesus was burned into my brain as a child.  When the words he spoke (like, for example how the people should have been killing their unruly children) didn't line up with the mental image I had in my mind, I would rationalise and make excuses for him.  Like "surely, he didn't mean that...  What he meant to say was..."  But, I don't see any evidence in the text that Jesus was sinless or blameless, or that he was any more of a good man than was David Koresh.  

 

There is always the excuse of the language translations that the apologists cite.  But, I have found that going back to the greek or hebrew doesn't change the meaning that much, if at all. It is just another one of those excuses that christian leaders throw around.  For anyone that wants to look up passages in different translations, I have found this to be the best resource: http://biblehub.com

 

 

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"Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15   Ironhorse

 

 

You didn't read the context of Luke 8:15, did you? You just spouted out your own thoughts. Don't you know yet that you are not supposed to have your own thoughts if you are a Xtian? 

 

Jesus did not say that the hearers did not want to understand. He said: "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you , but to others I speak in parables so that..." they won't see it or hear it. Why" Because:

1. The devil takes the word away from their heart.

2.They receive it with joy, when tested they fall away.

3, They hear but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures and they do not mature.

4. Those who receive it have a noble and good heart.

 

Not one of the reasons include ones who "did not want to understand." Not one. See? You interpret the bible based upon what you want it to say rather than what it says. Typical

 

Let's take another look at the reasons Jesus did state:

1 The devil made them do it.  Explain how these folks, victims of the devil that god allowed to roam the earth looking for victims, are at fault. The others weren't bothered by the devil, otherwise jesus would have said so. If there is any fault on these victims, the bulk of the fault lies with god himself for allowing the devil free range.

2. They received it with joy, but they weren't strong enough. Who made them weak? God did.

3 These folks hear the word but life gets them down. What? God didn't know this would happen? Life is tough. Who made it that way? And, again, who made them weak? See 2, above.

4. Those with a noble and good heart: Did they earn this good heart? Or did god stack the deck. If you believe that it is faith that saves, the worked for it. If they have to do good works, and will earn a good heart if they do, that means that good works saves. Why do we need faith in jesus if that is true?

This stuff was done with smoke and mirrors. It's an illusion. Wake up.

 bill

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"Maybe the nonbeliever cannot find God for the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman."

~Author Unknown

 

Show us a picture of God then. Stand next to God and take a selfie. When God leaves a message on your answer phone make it available online. When God visits you make a vid and post it to youtube.

 

Maybe you cannot find God for the same reason Lock Ness Monster hunters cannot find the Lock Ness Monster.

 

 

(I've never heard of a thief who claims that the police do not exist.)

I was never more aware of police as I was when I was driving drunk!

 

We never looked for God.

 

We never wanted to know him.

 

We just gave up our lives, friends, money, dignity and sanity to follow a God who couldn't even be fucked saying to us "you know what I'm actually here"

 

I warned God so many times I was doubting and to break that doubt by his mercy but God was too busy doing other shit to care how I felt. So I'm going to hell because I needed a doctor but the doctor never picked up the phone I just got the 2000 year old answering machine message u couldn't understand "sorry I'm not in right now, but I'm not sorry I am not in because you're not sorry you never called when I was in, however I'm actually here but don't answer my phone unless it's someone I want to help so you just have to hope I ring you back but I won't unless I decide I want to help but I'm here to help everyone who wants help that I wana help-go tell your friends and leave a message after the beep, but only if you are genuinely sick and don't mind dying by the time I get to see you, if you do die I'm blaming you for not leaving a convincing enough message" BEEP

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Oh, Jesus was really an anti-tax libertarian? I think Bill O'Reilly says the same thing in his book. 

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Oh, Jesus was really an anti-tax libertarian? I think Bill O'Reilly says the same thing in his book. 

 

 

Hang on a minute.  Isn't tithe a tax christians pay to the church?  Offering on top of that?  There was an old lady who put in the last 2 coins she had, and he was happy about that and called that good.

 

Fuck you, jesus!

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Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."  John 18:20

 

Damn, TinPony!  Don't you ever get tired of the contradictions in your holy book?

 

 

 

 

What contradiction?

 

He did speak his words openly.

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Guest afireinside

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing." John 18:20

 

Damn, TinPony! Don't you ever get tired of the contradictions in your holy book?

 

 

What contradiction?

 

He did speak his words openly.

Holy hell that's a big call

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Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."  John 18:20

 

Damn, TinPony!  Don't you ever get tired of the contradictions in your holy book?

 

 

 

 

What contradiction?

 

He did speak his words openly.

 

Well, Jesus admitted to speaking with design to confuse the public.

Only in private/secret did he explain what the plan was.

 

Matt 13:36-42

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Jesus never taught this secret plan for a violent purge to the public.

Speaking with intent to confuse is speaking in obfuscation, not openly.

Speaking in secret is not open, but limited to a select audience.

The gospel of John trips Jesus up.

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Yes, that is one of the reasons. He could deal with controversial issues without sending up a red flag

to the authorities.

 

Also, He knew some of them really didn’t want to understand. He wanted only those to understand who “in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience” ~Luke 8:15

 

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear” ~Matthew 11:15

 

"Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."  John 18:20

 

Damn, TinPony!  Don't you ever get tired of the contradictions in your holy book?

 

 

 

 

What contradiction?

 

He did speak his words openly.

 

What Centauri said.

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