Religion Wasted My Friend's Life

[Kurari]

Got into a very civil facebook discussion with a friend of mine about pro-choice vs. pro-liarism. Yes, it was actually very civil, it was just very predictable because she's uber-Christian, and I don't think she's ever had an original thought in her life. 

I feel horrible saying that, because she IS a friend for a good reason. She's a very good person. One of the hardest workers I've ever met, strong, charitable, friendly, and honest. 

But yeah, everything with her is about Jesus, the Bible, and whatnot. Honestly, that's sort of all she's got in her life. Her life has been SO wasted by Christianity it's like seeing a spiritual alcoholic. We all know the type: Every decision she makes in her life is run through the Christian filter and never notices that's it gotten her absolutely nowhere. 

She's never gone to college. She comes from an uber-Christian family, so she's pretty ignorant and doesn't think too good. She always felt Jesus would reveal her purpose to her at some point. She's going to be 50 in September. 

Subsequently she's never made above minimum wage dead-end jobs. She works two jobs right now to make ends meet. She's a church secretary at one job, and as an operator at a struggling little call-center where most of her co-workers are retirees looking for a little part time income and college kids. She has almost no social life outside of church otherwise. I almost never get to see her because co-workers are always calling out, and she's always the one who will show up if you call her. You'd think by this point she'd be a manager or something, but it seems like most companies are happy just giving her all the extra work of one with none of the power or the pay because she believes it's her duty.

She's never really had a relationship...She's admitted she's never even been kissed much less had sex. She'll be a 50-year-old virgin by the end of the year. 

No drinking, no smoking, no cursing, no...just, nothing.

I feel so bad for her because she is understandably not happy with her life, but it's SOOOOOO hard not to point out the obvious to me. I've tried the usual advice, but she always comes up with an excuse why she can't do it and then says something about God will give her what she's meant to have. She expresses her regrets about all she's missed sometimes, and then says, "I just keep faith. Jesus will give me my due in heaven." 

It's just sad, and I can't help but think about this forum and how she could have been any one of us if we hadn't woken up out of that toxic mental poison. 

[wanderinstar]

I feel your pain Kurari. Watching wonderful people we love be destroyed by religion is tough. I have a friend who is very liberal but in the last year she has been heading into fundi territory and it scares me as I feel I will lose my beautiful friend. Have you ever discussed your deconversion with your friend? Just to provide another pov on life. My friend knows christianity, and especially fundamentalist christianity, nearly killed me (and I am not exaggerating) yet she seems to think I was just 'hanging with the wrong crowd' of christians and the ones she hangs with would never cause so much suffering. It is so frustrating but I do think her knowing what I went through and the fact that I haven't turned into an ax wielding maniac upon deconverting helps her keep her mind open, at least just a little bit. She is also an amazing human being who I don't want to lose as a friend. My strategy at the moment is to not discuss religion and when it does come up be honest in response but change the subject as soon as possible. I have expressed my concerns to her regarding her moving into fundamentalism so now it is up to her. It is her life anyway and i respect that.

 

Sorry, I am babbling on a bit as I am tired. I just wanted you to know that I am sorry you have to go through this and I wish there was a magic cure for religious obsession. You are so right about the awful thought that that would be us had we not discovered christianity is bullshit. I am so glad you, at least, are out of it and can live your life on your terms. 

[rach]

Is she passionate about anything outside of Christianity?  Encourage her that it's ok to pursue her passions even if they are not religious in nature.  I know how people like this are, "spiritual alcoholics" as you called them.  My adoptive mum definitely falls into that category and I wish there was some spiritual detox program I could get her into.  What I started doing with a-mum, because I just couldn't deal with her obsession anymore emotionally, is that I will up and walk out of the room if she starts talking about religious stuff too much.  If she wants to talk about non-religious stuff I will join in.  I also don't shy away from offering perspectives, opinions, and historical fact that don't square with the Biblical worldview.  Even though a-mum will probably always be a fundy, I have opened her mind little by little, so much.  She has picked up books and watched movies that years ago would have been "too evil" to consider.  She read a book where the main character was a witch, and she loved it.  It's been rocky between us, sure, with the religious tension, but I don't push too hard and I am not judgmental.  When I want to offer a contradictoy perspective I try to do it in a friendly and respectful way and I have a great deal of respect for Christianity even though it's not my religion. 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

All of you, in your own way, have helped me deal with the similar feelings I have for my beloved sister and other relatives.

 

My sister thinks of herself as a liberal xian (she talks about "those crazy fundies") yet when I list her actual beliefs it's hard not to see how fundie she is.  Another relative was telling me just the other day of all the major problems she has in her life (job, study, housing, money, stress) but "God is sovereign and I know He will provide", when he clearly never has.  I don't ever say anything about religion to them but the day is coming when I may start doing that.  You have given me some things to think about, so thank you.

[Guest MadameX]

Her life has been SO wasted by Christianity it's like seeing a spiritual alcoholic. 

 

 

Spiritual alcoholic. That is a great term, it describes very well that kind of addiction.

 

So sad for your friend. My only comment is to not take on other people's problems. Though being an empathetic person is a good thing, there are limits.

[Reprobate]

It is all so sad.  Even in the warm and fuzzy church I attended, there were way too many people just spinning their wheels in life and waiting on god.   These were basically good and decent people so afraid of doing the wrong thing that they did nothing.    Like your friend they were growing older and unable to find love because of the system they were trapped in.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Her life has been SO wasted by Christianity it's like seeing a spiritual alcoholic. 

 

 

Spiritual alcoholic. That is a great term, it describes very well that kind of addiction.

 

So sad for your friend. My only comment is to not take on other people's problems. Though being an empathetic person is a good thing, there are limits.

 

I've often said that if you replace the word "alcohol" with the name "jesus" then the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous would make a better bible than god's holy word.

[Pantophobia]

That's why so many AAers become hardcore Christians. Replace one addiction with another, and presto!

Ah, well, there but for the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[Sophrosyne]

That sort of thing is really hard to watch... It's sad how much of her life  she's thrown away.

Like one of the comments said, encourage her to pursue passions even if they're not religious ones. It's hard sometimes though because christianity encourages denying ones self.

[Ellinas]

It's a pretty wide problem.

 

I think of one woman in particular.  She's a little younger than me.  She married a man very much in her father's image - fundamentalist to the point that he can hardly open his mouth without wanting to talk some religious gibberish.  A pretty girl in her younger days.  Not unattractive now save for one particular issue.  She gives the impression of being dragged down and without hope.  Long hair going a touch grey, no make up (not that I'm a great fan of women who wear obvious amounts of make up myself, but a touch of blusher would hide the rather unhealthy pallor she displays), always seems tired - probably due to the unending grind of family duty (i.e. being the "home maker" with no real break).

 

Mind, she's in a better state that another woman I met nearly 30 years ago, who had borne so many children as a result of the family's objection to contraception that it was a wonder to me her pelvis hadn't fallen out.

 

Basically, these are people whose religion has taken all choice from them.  Without choice, there is no freedom.  Through Christianity they have lost an essential part of their humanity.  It is desperately sad.

 

I am glad my own "better half", for all her attachment to the church of her upbringing, at least has the spirit to want and seek a life that has elements outside of that gathering.

[LifeCycle]

It was the same for me... Always being taught the Rapture is just around the corner. It affects the planning you should be making for your life... Even when you're young.  Kurari, I bet your friend is an "end-timer." Watching, waiting and wasting... One day they're old and reflect back on that entire life, looking up and waiting for nothing... It's so tragic.

 

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad I got out now... I'm hungry to know more about the universe, the earth, people, culture... All of that intrigues me. And you know, it should have as a believer too but for whatever reason it didn't and it appears I wasn't alone, either. Many Christians don't care about those things... Not even from the "How did God design all this" angle. Oh well, we'll figure it all out in the next life. Yeah, the one they're not going to get and the one they (we) cast aside for fairy-tales.

[Roz]

At least your friend's got you, that was one silver lining in your story.  I empathize with her, I'm betting most of us do. 

I'll remember this thread when I hear 'waiting for superman' on the radio.

[rach]

  Kurari, I bet your friend is an "end-timer." Watching, waiting and wasting... One day they're old and reflect back on that entire life, looking up and waiting for nothing... It's so tragic.

 Years ago when I was attending sunday school, 30-40 percent of the lessons were Imminent Rapture or End Times.  What could have happened if we had spent that time filling our minds with facts, life experiences, skills, and literature rather than useless false hopes?  My sunday school class is all grown up now.  Many are married some with children but yet so immature. They are still expecting for Christ to appear in the clouds, perhaps tomorrow or next year, in spite of twenty years of disappointed waiting.  They don't believe they're going to grow old, or die.  Our obsessive brand of religion warped our minds, stunted us intellectually and emotionally, left us perpetual children reaching out for father sky-god rather than standing on our own two feet.  We were taught to reject reality, so we did, only problem is, reality is there whether rejected or not.  Some of us are turning out alright, and it's generally those of us who for whatever reason were kicked out of our sacred Christian nest.  Some of us including myself endured periods of "religious mania" and others are going through that phase now.  Religious mania seems to be the defining moment.  It either purges religion out of your system the way in kindergarten we did a bit of a dance "shake your sillies out", for others religious mania in youth sets the course of their life as they feel they have defined themselves by it and are embarrassed to break out of that mold. 

[Guest MadameX]

 

  Kurari, I bet your friend is an "end-timer." Watching, waiting and wasting... One day they're old and reflect back on that entire life, looking up and waiting for nothing... It's so tragic.

 Years ago when I was attending sunday school, 30-40 percent of the lessons were Imminent Rapture or End Times.  What could have happened if we had spent that time filling our minds with facts, life experiences, skills, and literature rather than useless false hopes?  My sunday school class is all grown up now.  Many are married some with children but yet so immature. They are still expecting for Christ to appear in the clouds, perhaps tomorrow or next year, in spite of twenty years of disappointed waiting.  They don't believe they're going to grow old, or die.  Our obsessive brand of religion warped our minds, stunted us intellectually and emotionally, left us perpetual children reaching out for father sky-god rather than standing on our own two feet.  We were taught to reject reality, so we did, only problem is, reality is there whether rejected or not.  Some of us are turning out alright, and it's generally those of us who for whatever reason were kicked out of our sacred Christian nest.  Some of us including myself endured periods of "religious mania" and others are going through that phase now.  Religious mania seems to be the defining moment.  It either purges religion out of your system the way in kindergarten we did a bit of a dance "shake your sillies out", for others religious mania in youth sets the course of their life as they feel they have defined themselves by it and are embarrassed to break out of that mold. 

 

 

Wow.

 

Really really struck a bit close to home with me. Well said.

[xtify]

 

  Kurari, I bet your friend is an "end-timer." Watching, waiting and wasting... One day they're old and reflect back on that entire life, looking up and waiting for nothing... It's so tragic.

 Years ago when I was attending sunday school, 30-40 percent of the lessons were Imminent Rapture or End Times.  What could have happened if we had spent that time filling our minds with facts, life experiences, skills, and literature rather than useless false hopes?  My sunday school class is all grown up now.  Many are married some with children but yet so immature. They are still expecting for Christ to appear in the clouds, perhaps tomorrow or next year, in spite of twenty years of disappointed waiting.  They don't believe they're going to grow old, or die.  Our obsessive brand of religion warped our minds, stunted us intellectually and emotionally, left us perpetual children reaching out for father sky-god rather than standing on our own two feet.  We were taught to reject reality, so we did, only problem is, reality is there whether rejected or not.  Some of us are turning out alright, and it's generally those of us who for whatever reason were kicked out of our sacred Christian nest.  Some of us including myself endured periods of "religious mania" and others are going through that phase now.  Religious mania seems to be the defining moment.  It either purges religion out of your system the way in kindergarten we did a bit of a dance "shake your sillies out", for others religious mania in youth sets the course of their life as they feel they have defined themselves by it and are embarrassed to break out of that mold. 

 

 

Rach, that was well said.  There are so many people that I know who've had a manic end times period, and thought it was all going to end at any moment.  For whatever reason, they won't face it that they were wrong.  They cling to the promise that they aren't going to have to experience death.  

 

My parents falll into that category. They have fallen for several different end times scenarios and timelines, all of which didn't occur (obviously).  But, it hasn't stopped them from clinging to the false hopes.  It is so sad.  My mother wasted her life, imo.  She prayed unceasingly for years in her housecoat and had her own 'ministry' making mixed tapes for people.  She could have had even a part time job, paid into the system, and would have had retirement income now.  But she never thought the world would continue on this long.  Looking back, she wasn't there for us kids, because Jesus always came first. Our happiness was always secondary to her pleasing him.  I feel bad for her, because Jesus is imaginary, and now she has to live on basically nothing. But, instead of telling me not to do what she did, she is 100% sold that her choices were completely perfect, because she put him first.  My mother is still a religious nutcase, and there is nothing I can do to change that.  I just have to live with the fact that she will never grow out of it.  I have never heard her say the words, I'm sorry, ever!  Some people can't face their mistakes.

[xtify]

Got into a very civil facebook discussion with a friend of mine about pro-choice vs. pro-liarism. Yes, it was actually very civil, it was just very predictable because she's uber-Christian, and I don't think she's ever had an original thought in her life. 

 

I feel horrible saying that, because she IS a friend for a good reason. She's a very good person. One of the hardest workers I've ever met, strong, charitable, friendly, and honest. 

 

But yeah, everything with her is about Jesus, the Bible, and whatnot. Honestly, that's sort of all she's got in her life. Her life has been SO wasted by Christianity it's like seeing a spiritual alcoholic. We all know the type: Every decision she makes in her life is run through the Christian filter and never notices that's it gotten her absolutely nowhere. 

 

She's never gone to college. She comes from an uber-Christian family, so she's pretty ignorant and doesn't think too good. She always felt Jesus would reveal her purpose to her at some point. She's going to be 50 in September. 

 

Subsequently she's never made above minimum wage dead-end jobs. She works two jobs right now to make ends meet. She's a church secretary at one job, and as an operator at a struggling little call-center where most of her co-workers are retirees looking for a little part time income and college kids. She has almost no social life outside of church otherwise. I almost never get to see her because co-workers are always calling out, and she's always the one who will show up if you call her. You'd think by this point she'd be a manager or something, but it seems like most companies are happy just giving her all the extra work of one with none of the power or the pay because she believes it's her duty.

 

She's never really had a relationship...She's admitted she's never even been kissed much less had sex. She'll be a 50-year-old virgin by the end of the year. 

 

No drinking, no smoking, no cursing, no...just, nothing.

 

I feel so bad for her because she is understandably not happy with her life, but it's SOOOOOO hard not to point out the obvious to me. I've tried the usual advice, but she always comes up with an excuse why she can't do it and then says something about God will give her what she's meant to have. She expresses her regrets about all she's missed sometimes, and then says, "I just keep faith. Jesus will give me my due in heaven." 

 

It's just sad, and I can't help but think about this forum and how she could have been any one of us if we hadn't woken up out of that toxic mental poison. 

 

Kurari,

This is such a very sad story.  Christianity drains the potential from women's lives.  Men too, but women are especially used up. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

For me it wasn't so much end times, rapture stuff that caused me to waste so much of my life.  It was the idea that god had a plan for me-- a divine destiny-- that was going to be absolutely wonderful.  All I had to do was walk in god's plan and all my earthly needs would be taken care of.  The right woman, the right career, the right ministry: god would sort it all out according to his plan.  

 

No need to prepare for a future that god has already ordained.  

 

Unfortunately, god's plan was a complete lie and divine destinies don't really work out as a career choice in the real world.  So there was me going back to school at the age of 35 with a mortgage, bills, a wife and newborn child, trying to juggle work and run a farm; all just to try to put together some kind of life for myself.

 

When I look at pictures of myself from kindergarten, I always feel so guilty, because I know that I betrayed that little boy and did not give him the life he deserved.  When I look at my son, I am determined to give him the life I didn't get to have.

[sparklingphoenix]

My mom and grandparents are a lot like that. It can be so depressing to listen to them talk. Every single time I talk to my grandpa on the phone, he always talks about how he believes the rapture is coming and that all of us will go up to heaven together soon. He's been saying that for years and I've always felt bothered by it, since I'm a young person and I've barely gotten to start my life. He wants the whole world to end because he's lived his life and is done. What about us young people?? Don't we deserve some time to explore and live out our lives too? Especially since my life up until now was wasted on a myth. My mom thought she followed god and married "the one" who turned out to be terrible. Even after her life fell apart she still thinks god is in control. I don't get it. Reading this post made me feel really lucky that I got out when I did, because I can see myself like your friend one day otherwise. 

[milesaway]

Your friend's story reminds me of some people I knew during my days of playing church. I remember these two girls I'd see during the services with their parents, they had to be in their late 20s to early 30s at the time, and they were both so sheltered and naive it's heartbreaking to even think about. I don't think we said more than 5 words to each other the whole time I was visiting that church. I remember this old lady, probably in her 70s or so, she's basically thrown away her entire life over this failure of a religion. There were others in similar situations, some of which were so bitter and angry about it that they'd lash out at anyone with any shred of potential whatsoever and make them feel like crap. In fact, I'd be surprised if any of them went to college of any kind, be it trade school, community college or university.

 

It's like these people are living cautionary tales. It's so hard to see the potential and what could have been, utterly destroyed, and for what? Xtianity is truly a lost cause, and they're the proof of it.

[boftx]

You say your friend is unhappy with her life, but is she, really? Most people will make changes of some kind, including adopting or rejecting religion, to have what they consider a better life if things are going badly.

 

I submit that she is in fact comfortable enough with her life that she sees no need for change. Just as I detest those who try to impose their beliefs on me, I do my best not to impose mine on others. (That is not to say that I won't tell Christians to mind their own damned business and keep it out of the ballot box!)

 

I got the impression that the best thing you can do for her, and for yourself, is to just continue to be a good friend, and take 2 Advil and 3 shots of Scotch whenever you get to thinking about her life too much.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I sometimes wonder whether this expecting/desire to be raptured is bordering on suicidal thinking.  I say bordering because it isn't actual suicidal thinking, it's just something on the spectrum towards it.  Any chance of having a love of life has been squeezed down to nothing by their obsession with their imaginary friend.

 

I am finding this thread so interesting, thanks everyone.

[rach]

I sometimes wonder whether this expecting/desire to be raptured is bordering on suicidal thinking.  I say bordering because it isn't actual suicidal thinking, it's just something on the spectrum towards it. 

 

Rapture thinking is definitely in bed with suicidal thinking.  It's all about a need for escape from this world.  I think you'll find the strongest rapture adherents being those with the most desire to escape from this world.  They have become disabled, or sick, and the daily strain has gotten too much, or they've gotten old and don't want to die (rapture: the get out of death free card), or just in general wanting out of a violent, unfair, and unpredictable world where we also have to work so hard just to eat. 

 

I was a fish and rapture teaching was the enticing worm that got me hooked.  It's no wonder I fell for it so much harder than my peers.  Looking back I can see why.  My dearly treasured parents had already died.  Rapture...boom....in an instant, home safe with mum and dad in a perfect place where no catastrophe could tear us apart again.  What orphan could resist that? (mum and dad weren't believers but I had overlooked that part).  And it's just hard, being poor, you wish for the day to come when you don't have to work your ass off.  Flying up to a heavenly mansion sure would be convenient. 

 

In a newspaper advice column I read about a complaint from a child whose aging mum was becoming completely obsessed with the rapture.  All she would talk about was rapture, rapture rapture.  She hadn't been like that when she was young.  It was the urgency of death approaching.  She couldn't face dying, so she had to find a trap door.   

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Given the proximity of rapture and suicidal thinking, should we be concerned about such individuals slipping into suicidal behaviour if a major crisis hits them? 

 

Could xianity be a risk factor for suicide? 

 

It certainly wasn't a protective factor in my case.  Some of my brushes with suicidal thinking happened at times of fervent belief.  I assumed I would still go to "heaven".  (Don't worry, these days I love my one life too much to ever throw it away).  I wouldn't guarantee that these rapture-minded individuals are any safer from suicide than the general population.

[Jedah]

I sometimes wonder whether this expecting/desire to be raptured is bordering on suicidal thinking.  I say bordering because it isn't actual suicidal thinking, it's just something on the spectrum towards it.  Any chance of having a love of life has been squeezed down to nothing by their obsession with their imaginary friend.

 

I am finding this thread so interesting, thanks everyone.

 

I've known people with this problem. It's really more of an issue with escapism than true suicidal thinking. They are unhappy with life and want a change, but not necessarily to die.

[xtify]

My mother said she was going to commit suicide today.  I'm really getting sick of the manipulations.  She does this whenever she recognises that she's done something wrong, in lieu of apologising.  I'm worn out from all of this!  

 

I guess I should explain that my husband, myself and our 2 boys live with my parents.  It's not because we have to, but rather because we feel obligated.  My parents will lose their house if we leave and don't pay their mortgage.  The obligation comes from knowing that they can't survive without our income, and also the guilt from my mother investing money in a business that I had a few years ago.  I told her not to, because I didn't think they could afford it, but she told me the holy spirit had led her to.  

 

Like every person that loses their business, I never thought it would go down like it did, and that we would lose everything.  It seemed like they would be able to earn income off the investment and that would be a solution to the problem they had of having no retirement income.  For several years, it was a good income for them... until we lost the business in 2012.  I did the right thing by them and moved back, 550 kms north, from a great city to the bush.  I guess I had forgotten how completely disfunctional they are.

 

An example: as soon as I moved back, my mother tried to move my much older brother in with us.  That was a complete betrayal. It's too long of a story to bother telling, but the short version is that my brother is a repeat offender, probably a sociopath and has been to jail many times both as a juvenile and as an adult.  I didn't know, but he was in jail at that time and had nowhere to go when he was released, because he was not able to move back with his wife for reasons of domestic violence.  

 

My mother insisted that he move in, even though he molested me multiple times as a child; put me in holes that he dug in the ground for hours (what he called "jail"); bullied me and beat me up whenever he wanted, and also shot at me once when I was 11 (he was a heroin user, and was in the biker gang called "Satan's Choice".  When I was 5, she walked in on him having sex with me, and then yelled at him.  She then told me that none of it had ever happened.  Years later, when I was around 12, I asked her about it, saying she had witnessed it once, which she denied. She said, "why would you want that to be true?"  Which has been her response ever since.  My older brother is very violent and I didn't want him around my kids.  My husband was pissed and he told my parents that if they brought him back, we would leave.  So they didn't, but my mom guilted me about it whenever she had the chance.  She said I wasn't being a good christian (before I finally told her I wasn't).  

 

My parents put my brother up in a hotel for a few weeks instead.  Even though my brother is a welder and can make $30 to $50 an hour and has no dependents now, my parents cornered my husband and said we owed them for the hotel bill.  We refused to pay it, but they still blame us.  

 

Now, 2+ years later, I still live with them.  My husband and I both work full time, and take care of my elderly parents.  The incident today happened as a result of me asking my mother to care more for her 2 grandkids.  She has basically detached from them because they aren't being raised as fundamentalist christians.  She cringes whenever my one son talks about his love of star wars, and has accused me of indoctrinating them into the ways of the world.  

 

Today, I told her that her dogs are more of a priority to her than her 2 grandkids are.  It really is true.  My parents have 6 kids, and with all the marriages, they have 21 grandkids and 3 great grandkids.  But, their dogs are so important that they have the fenced yard while my kids are supposed to play out on the front lawn and road.  All I asked was that the fence be separated into 2 sections so my kids could have some space to play.  She said the dogs need all of it!  To put it into perspective, we live on 10 acres.  I got angry and accused her of having her priorities all wrong.  I think she realised she is wrong, and so the suicide attempt as usual.  She locked herself in the bathroom with a knife.  It used to be that I would stop and say I was sorry, crying that I didn't mean what I said and coddling her back to normal.  Then I would walk on eggshells for a while until she was mentally stable again.  This time, I just called her on her manipulative behaviour.  This has been going on for years!  I am so fucking sick of it! 

 

The holy spirit wasn't wrong, it was because of my shortcomings as a person that things didn't work out for her.  She completely devalues the fact that my husband and I have tried to help her, and blames us for everything.  Jesus didn't let her down...I DID. This delusion she clings to doesn't allow her to see that we have been there for her and my dad.  Nothing is ever good enough for them!  It all stems from the fact that they've been told they'd be living in a mansion in the sky by now, and they don't think the comfortable life they have is of any value compared to the promises of a big mansion by now with jewels and streets of gold.  How fucking stupid!