Christian Inequality

[themonkeyman]

Hi Folks,

 

Christians profess that Jesus died for them and as such as long as they 'Repent' they will not recieve condemnation.  But what about the people they have wronged?

 

Put it this way if you as a Christian are going to require forgiveness then obviously you have wronged someone else.  But since God forgives you-  you live in ignorance at the people you have hurt.

 

The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned.

 

Surely this is very unfair!

 

The other problem I have here is the fact that Jesus who teaches forgiveness only will forgive those who believe in him.  Surely if he wanted to practice what he preaches his love would truly be Unlimited in this life and the next?!  And he would always forgive us regardless.

 

The last problem I have is that Before Jesus died I assume that people were just 'Dead' but since Jesus died those who were dead had a chance to believe from the Grave?  Where as all we have in this generation is a book which has more holes in it than old cheese.

 

Basically for an Unbeliever it would be better that Jesus never existed as by him existing and being rejected means the Unbeliever is in a worse state now than they were before!

 

 

[ironhorse]

Hi Folks,

 

Christians profess that Jesus died for them and as such as long as they 'Repent' they will not recieve condemnation.  But what about the people they have wronged?

 

Put it this way if you as a Christian are going to require forgiveness then obviously you have wronged someone else.  But since God forgives you-  you live in ignorance at the people you have hurt.

 

The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned.

 

Surely this is very unfair!

 

The other problem I have here is the fact that Jesus who teaches forgiveness only will forgive those who believe in him.  Surely if he wanted to practice what he preaches his love would truly be Unlimited in this life and the next?!  And he would always forgive us regardless.

 

The last problem I have is that Before Jesus died I assume that people were just 'Dead' but since Jesus died those who were dead had a chance to believe from the Grave?  Where as all we have in this generation is a book which has more holes in it than old cheese.

 

Basically for an Unbeliever it would be better that Jesus never existed as by him existing and being rejected means the Unbeliever is in a worse state now than they were before!

 

"The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned."

 

 

Jesus does not teach that our eternal destiny is based on our forgiving other people. Our sins are forgiven 

by grace based on the cross alone....not our works.

[Scottsman]

Matt 6:15

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

It must suck being always wrong ironhorse

[WarriorPoet]

I think Ironhorse needs to go to the bookstore and get a refund on his bible.  It seems to be missing parts.  I certainly wouldn't be satisfied if I bought a book and it turned out to be incomplete.

[Thackerie]

 

Hi Folks,

 

Christians profess that Jesus died for them and as such as long as they 'Repent' they will not recieve condemnation.  But what about the people they have wronged?

 

Put it this way if you as a Christian are going to require forgiveness then obviously you have wronged someone else.  But since God forgives you-  you live in ignorance at the people you have hurt.

 

The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned.

 

Surely this is very unfair!

 

The other problem I have here is the fact that Jesus who teaches forgiveness only will forgive those who believe in him.  Surely if he wanted to practice what he preaches his love would truly be Unlimited in this life and the next?!  And he would always forgive us regardless.

 

The last problem I have is that Before Jesus died I assume that people were just 'Dead' but since Jesus died those who were dead had a chance to believe from the Grave?  Where as all we have in this generation is a book which has more holes in it than old cheese.

 

Basically for an Unbeliever it would be better that Jesus never existed as by him existing and being rejected means the Unbeliever is in a worse state now than they were before!

 

"The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned."

 

 

Jesus does not teach that our eternal destiny is based on our forgiving other people. Our sins are forgiven 

by grace based on the cross alone....not our works.

 

 

Rev. 22-12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

Wrong again. That's a two-fer!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

christians have the entire concept of forgiveness back to front.  Forgiveness isn't about the person who did wrong being justified; it's about the person who had wrong done to them being able to let go of the wrong and be free of the hurt.  christians think that jesus offers them all the forgiveness they need.  As a result, they don't feel like they have to go to the person they hurt for forgiveness; all they need do is pray about it.  Personally, I've been screwed over far harder by christians than I ever have by non-believers or members of other religions.  Very few have ever asked me to forgive them.  Nonetheless, I do forgive them after I have dealt with the wrong they've done me in order to be able to walk away from it.

[mymistake]

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor.  It doesn't mean what it says.  Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message.  Naturally the central message means what it says.  If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse.  Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . . 

 

 

Seems legit!

[TrueFreedom]

Jesus also said not to offer a sacrifice until you've reconciled with someone you have wronged.  It's in the sermon on the mount.  Jesus did not teach Christianity, however.  He was a jew.  Paul's Christian message is much easier.

 

I've had Christians tell me that only God needs to forgive them.  Instead of asking someone to forgive them they would ask God.  Well, that solves EVERYTHING.

[Pantophobia]

It's so cute when the teachings of contemporary Christianity directly contradict the words in the bible, ain't it? 

[Roz]

"The Bible even teaches that unless you forgive - you yourself will not be forgiven.  So while the Catholic Priest is abusing a young child.  So long as that parent does not forgive the priest they will be condemned."

 

 

Jesus does not teach that our eternal destiny is based on our forgiving other people. Our sins are forgiven 

by grace based on the cross alone....not our works.

 

 

 

Matt 6:15

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

It must suck being always wrong ironhorse

 

 

Rev. 22-12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

Wrong again. That's a two-fer!

 

 

I'm finding it hilarious that the skeptics are the ones quoting passages from the book the christian professes to believe is 100% the word of his god.  Go go gadget apologetics, can't wait.

[Bhim]

As you say Monkeyman, it would be better if Jesus were never born. Before Jesus, salvation was far easier and more likely (in the Christian paradigm, that is).

 

Penal substitutionary atonement is more than just wrong, it is a vile doctrine that permits all manner of wrongdoing. A fourth party punishes a third party for any man's sins against another. If you punch me in the face, God rights the wrong by punching Jesus in the face on my behalf. I hate Jesus, but this is of no help to anyone, and hurts people by allowing Christians to get away with evil with not so much as a guilty conscience.

[themonkeyman]

Ok Ironhorse so this is completely bull shit then?

 

Ezekiel 24:14

 

4"I, the LORD, have spoken; it is coming and I will act. I will not relent, and I will not pity and I will not be sorry; according to your ways and according to your deeds I will judge you," declares the Lord GOD.'"

 

 

 

Or if you want a more modern version

 

Rev - 20 : 13

 

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

 

 

Or perhaps what Jesus said:

 

Matthew 12:37

 

37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

 

 

 

So according to your Bible God says that 'What we do and say is what gets recorded in the book of life'  It also gives people an opportunity at Judgement day to wrangle their way out by giving a good reason as Jesus said 'By your words you will be Justified and by your words you will be condemned'.

 

But sure 'Belief' which is purely a Pauline concept is more true considering Paul never met Jesus and we have no proof that Jesus confirmed this to paul.  Further Jesus warned against false teaching which if you believe Jesus paul came around and said stuff that was opposite what Jesus said.

[themonkeyman]

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor.  It doesn't mean what it says.  Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message.  Naturally the central message means what it says.  If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse.  Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . . 

 

 

Seems legit!

 

Aye but how can you tell the Difference in the two if the Satan can pretend to be the Holy Spirit?  Would this not mean you could truely believe that you are following God but will goto hell because you had the wrong 'Spirit' in your heart?

 

E.g. is it those who run at odds with the Teachings in the Bible are they the ones who have Satan in them or is it the many who agree with the Bible?

 

This poses a problem in that Jesus said few would enter heaven which implies to me that many people think they are Christians but are completely decieved?

[themonkeyman]

As you say Monkeyman, it would be better if Jesus were never born. Before Jesus, salvation was far easier and more likely (in the Christian paradigm, that is).

 

Penal substitutionary atonement is more than just wrong, it is a vile doctrine that permits all manner of wrongdoing. A fourth party punishes a third party for any man's sins against another. If you punch me in the face, God rights the wrong by punching Jesus in the face on my behalf. I hate Jesus, but this is of no help to anyone, and hurts people by allowing Christians to get away with evil with not so much as a guilty conscience.

 

You are exactly right.

 

Those Jews when they did something wrong they just Died!!! That was all that happened.  Then comes along Jesus with this lovely threat!

 

Goes something like:

 

'I love you Monkeyman,  I am going to take your sins upon myself and see if you dont believe the Bible which men will tamper beyond belief and then think of me as made up I will torture you in hell for eternity'.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor.  It doesn't mean what it says.  Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message.  Naturally the central message means what it says.  If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse.  Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . . 

 

 

Seems legit!

 

Aye but how can you tell the Difference in the two if the Satan can pretend to be the Holy Spirit?  Would this not mean you could truely believe that you are following God but will goto hell because you had the wrong 'Spirit' in your heart?

 

E.g. is it those who run at odds with the Teachings in the Bible are they the ones who have Satan in them or is it the many who agree with the Bible?

 

This poses a problem in that Jesus said few would enter heaven which implies to me that many people think they are Christians but are completely decieved?

 

You're meant to test the spirits to see if they are from god.  But when you're testing them, don't forget that the devil appears as an angel of light and that he can also quote scripture.  In fact, the devil can behave like the holy spirit so convincingly that one might begin to suspect they are the same person.

[sdelsolray]

…

Jesus does not teach that our eternal destiny is based on our forgiving other people. Our sins are forgiven 

by grace based on the cross alone....not our works.

 

 

Ready, shoot, aim.

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

 

 

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor. It doesn't mean what it says. Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message. Naturally the central message means what it says. If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse. Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . .

 

 

Seems legit!

Aye but how can you tell the Difference in the two if the Satan can pretend to be the Holy Spirit? Would this not mean you could truely believe that you are following God but will goto hell because you had the wrong 'Spirit' in your heart?

 

E.g. is it those who run at odds with the Teachings in the Bible are they the ones who have Satan in them or is it the many who agree with the Bible?

 

This poses a problem in that Jesus said few would enter heaven which implies to me that many people think they are Christians but are completely decieved?

You're meant to test the spirits to see if they are from god. But when you're testing them, don't forget that the devil appears as an angel of light and that he can also quote scripture. In fact, the devil can behave like the holy spirit so convincingly that one might begin to suspect they are the same person.

Satan is able to quote scripture but somehow can't read revelation where he could see Gods plan to use him and then discard him. I've always thought if I was Satan I'd do things on my terms but Christians answer this by saying Satan can't read prophesy-WTF.

 

As for the testing of spirits, who the fuck knows what "spirit" is speaking to you, I suppose it depends on what chemical in your brain is elevated on that particular day. I spent years stressing over questions like;

 

Is it God speaking?

 

Am I saved or am I deceived?

 

Am I genuine enough in my faith?

 

Are my past mistakes actually forgiven?

 

Am I fucked regardless of what I do?

 

Crazy shit

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor. It doesn't mean what it says. Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message. Naturally the central message means what it says. If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse. Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . .

 

 

Seems legit!

Aye but how can you tell the Difference in the two if the Satan can pretend to be the Holy Spirit? Would this not mean you could truely believe that you are following God but will goto hell because you had the wrong 'Spirit' in your heart?

 

E.g. is it those who run at odds with the Teachings in the Bible are they the ones who have Satan in them or is it the many who agree with the Bible?

 

This poses a problem in that Jesus said few would enter heaven which implies to me that many people think they are Christians but are completely decieved?

You're meant to test the spirits to see if they are from god. But when you're testing them, don't forget that the devil appears as an angel of light and that he can also quote scripture. In fact, the devil can behave like the holy spirit so convincingly that one might begin to suspect they are the same person.

Satan is able to quote scripture but somehow can't read revelation where he could see Gods plan to use him and then discard him. I've always thought if I was Satan I'd do things on my terms but Christians answer this by saying Satan can't read prophesy-WTF.

 

As for the testing of spirits, who the fuck knows what "spirit" is speaking to you, I suppose it depends on what chemical in your brain is elevated on that particular day. I spent years stressing over questions like;

 

Is it God speaking?

 

Am I saved or am I deceived?

 

Am I genuine enough in my faith?

 

Are my past mistakes actually forgiven?

 

Am I fucked regardless of what I do?

 

Crazy shit

 

I hear you, fire.  I got so fed up with testing spirits that I finally decided "fuck it all, I'll just believe whatever spirit is speaking to me.  If god is all he's cracked up to be, he should be able to fight his way to the front of the line."

[Guest afireinside]

Exactly TRP!

 

And how can Satan/demons speak into our mind anyway when God in all his power struggles to do that at the best of times?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Exactly TRP!

 

And how can Satan/demons speak into our mind anyway when God in all his power struggles to do that at the best of times?

And if you pray, "god let your will and your will alone be done in my life" shouldn't he be able to get rid of any spirit that might be acting against his will?  Weird thing is, apparently the devil and his fallen angels seem to care more about what happens in a person's life than jesus.

[xtify]

 

 

All that stuff IronHorse doesn't like is just a metaphor.  It doesn't mean what it says.  Only the parts IronHorse loves are the clear central message.  Naturally the central message means what it says.  If you guys had the Holy Specter in your heart then you would agree with IronHorse.  Unless it was Satan in your heart pretending the be the Holy Specter and then you would only think you know . . . 

 

 

Seems legit!

 

Aye but how can you tell the Difference in the two if the Satan can pretend to be the Holy Spirit?  Would this not mean you could truely believe that you are following God but will goto hell because you had the wrong 'Spirit' in your heart?

 

E.g. is it those who run at odds with the Teachings in the Bible are they the ones who have Satan in them or is it the many who agree with the Bible?

 

This poses a problem in that Jesus said few would enter heaven which implies to me that many people think they are Christians but are completely decieved?

 

You're meant to test the spirits to see if they are from god.  But when you're testing them, don't forget that the devil appears as an angel of light and that he can also quote scripture.  In fact, the devil can behave like the holy spirit so convincingly that one might begin to suspect they are the same person.

 

 

But, Professor, you are not to test gawd! Or are you? Jesus says thou shalt not, Malachi says go ahead.

[Guest afireinside]

 

 

Exactly TRP!

 

And how can Satan/demons speak into our mind anyway when God in all his power struggles to do that at the best of times?

And if you pray, "god let your will and your will alone be done in my life" shouldn't he be able to get rid of any spirit that might be acting against his will? Weird thing is, apparently the devil and his fallen angels seem to care more about what happens in a person's life than jesus.

It's as if God was allowing Satan to be my default setting and I had this overbearing perpetual feeling of paranoia and insecurity. God said "my sheep hear my voice" and I tried to hear but God never gave me any real sense of direction. I've said it before, if God is real he should just "rapture" us instantly the moment we believe instead of letting us stay on earth as playthings of spiritual entities. How the fuck were we sure on anything as Christians?. Remember God warns about double-mindedness! Well who's faults that? I'd have been a lot more faithful and certain if God masses it clear he was talking not some imposter, c'mon God give us a fucking break!

[sdelsolray]

Reality check.  None of these supernatural gods, sprites, demons, devils, saviors, etc. actually exist.

 

This message is provided to inform theists that most posters in this thread merely presume such imaginary entities to exist for the purposes of discussion.  Of course, some posters actually believe they exist.  They pretend well.

[Roz]