Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 23, 2014 Damn, BAA! It always impresses me how you can cut straight through to the heart of the matter. Hats off to you, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thanks Prof! To quote someone I respect... "We do what we can." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 "The NT clearly teach that we are accepted by Christ by grace, not works." irionhorse You don't make your point, ironhorse, by ignoring challenges to try to reconcile inconsistent scriptures. You just emphasis your weakness. I challenged you on another post to reconcile Matthew 25:45-46 with salvation by faith (grace) not of works. Verse 25-45,46 says: "I tell you the truth, whatsoever you did not do for one of the the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to life." Get your head out of the sand and at least admit these are inconsistent with each other, or explain why they are not. Can you do that? bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 A really strong point to raise against Xtias is to ask them what if their children, spouse, or parents simply can't bring themselves to believe that jesus was god's son or that he was raised from the dead? This is where one will either show his hard heart or admit that it would be impossible to take. And that it would be grossly unfair. How about you ironhorse? bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 23, 2014 Thanks Prof! To quote someone I respect... "We do what we can." Aw, shucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 As a former christian and one who studied the bible "religiously" (ha ha!), I can tell you that there is no clear consensus among Christians regarding what "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" even means, let alone what Jesus meant by it. There are many schools of thought on the topic. Some take it literally, not speaking against the Holy Spirit. Some think it means to reject the Holy Spirit's conviction he places on you in order to draw you to be saved, in essence to reject Jesus and thus not be saved. It is the only place it is mentioned in the bible. It has been a great source of anxiety for Christians. Many live in fear that they have committed the "unpardonable sin" and are going to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it. Even as a Christian, I didn't hold that view. It seems to be inconsistent with other biblical teachings about salvation as you pointed out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 As a former christian and one who studied the bible "religiously" (ha ha!), I can tell you that there is no clear consensus among Christians regarding what "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" even means, let alone what Jesus meant by it. There are many schools of thought on the topic. Some take it literally, not speaking against the Holy Spirit. Some think it means to reject the Holy Spirit's conviction he places on you in order to draw you to be saved, in essence to reject Jesus and thus not be saved. It is the only place it is mentioned in the bible. It has been a great source of anxiety for Christians. Many live in fear that they have committed the "unpardonable sin" and are going to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it. Even as a Christian, I didn't hold that view. It seems to be inconsistent with other biblical teachings about salvation as you pointed out. Welcome to the forum, Neverlandrut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. So we fell by choosing the higher way of understanding(tree of good and evil) and we are lost by not choosing the higher level of understanding(Holy Spirit)????? Does God wants to have no brain but an intuitive spirit? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. So we fell by choosing the higher way of understanding(tree of good and evil) and we are lost by not choosing the higher level of understanding(Holy Spirit)????? Does God wants to have no brain but an intuitive spirit? No, I think God would wish that we use our brains to understand the aspects of holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Grace by faith is what I used to believe. The Israelites had faith in the blood at the Passover. We were required to have faith in "the blood" We will be passed over apparently(saved) by the blood Israelites never chose to be saved, they were CHOSEN Does that mean God allocates grace for The Chosen to accept and to the rest a big get fucked? We are free to choose. Except when we aren't. For example, if your particular imaginary God actually exists, and that God is omniscient, I have no choices because that God already knows what I will do. I can't "choose" between wearing a red shirt or a green shirt because what I will wear is already predestined. All I can do is believe I have a choice, and that belief is false, or, as many say, illusory. On the other hand, if your particular God does not exist, or it does exist but is not omniscient, then it is possible for me (or you) to make a real choice. Choice is an emergent property of certain combinations of matter and energy. No sky fairies, including the particular God you were indoctrinated with as a child by your Baptist minister father, is needed or required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. Easy fix: without god there is no sin! He's the only one against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. So we fell by choosing the higher way of understanding(tree of good and evil) and we are lost by not choosing the higher level of understanding(Holy Spirit)????? Does God wants to have no brain but an intuitive spirit? No, I think God would wish that we use our brains to understand the aspects of holiness. "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." Isaiah 45:15 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8 Clearly, god does not want us to understand his ways (holiness being one of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Grace by faith is what I used to believe. The Israelites had faith in the blood at the Passover. We were required to have faith in "the blood" We will be passed over apparently(saved) by the blood Israelites never chose to be saved, they were CHOSEN Does that mean God allocates grace for The Chosen to accept and to the rest a big get fucked? We are free to choose. Except when we aren't. For example, if your particular imaginary God actually exists, and that God is omniscient, I have no choices because that God already knows what I will do. I can't "choose" between wearing a red shirt or a green shirt because what I will wear is already predestined. All I can do is believe I have a choice, and that belief is false, or, as many say, illusory. On the other hand, if your particular God does not exist, or it does exist but is not omniscient, then it is possible for me (or you) to make a real choice. Choice is an emergent property of certain combinations of matter and energy. No sky fairies, including the particular God you were indoctrinated with as a child by your Baptist minister father, is needed or required. Thats a very good point, Since God knows what I am going to do it is his responsiblity to have created me knowing full well that I would end up not believing in him and going to hell. If God is unaware of my outcomes then God really is a simple made up concept. So if I end up in Hell it is because God sent me there from before I was born which is kind of Contridictary to his message. Also why is it that I was a Christian for 4 years yet I never seen a single Miracle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. So we fell by choosing the higher way of understanding(tree of good and evil) and we are lost by not choosing the higher level of understanding(Holy Spirit)????? Does God wants to have no brain but an intuitive spirit? No, I think God would wish that we use our brains to understand the aspects of holiness. "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." Isaiah 45:15 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8 Clearly, god does not want us to understand his ways (holiness being one of them). @Redneck You forget - Christians don't believe in the OT even though their basis for Jesus is supposidly supported by the very same thing they largley reject. Was Jesus not supposed to be a Great King and named Immanuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 24, 2014 Could be a couple of things in my mind. The easy one....the rejection of the crucified Christ. Second, I kind of lean toward rejection of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Spirit that moves us to a Tree of Life type decision. You reject life, you are essentially siding with sin. So we fell by choosing the higher way of understanding(tree of good and evil) and we are lost by not choosing the higher level of understanding(Holy Spirit)????? Does God wants to have no brain but an intuitive spirit? No, I think God would wish that we use our brains to understand the aspects of holiness. "Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour." Isaiah 45:15 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8 Clearly, god does not want us to understand his ways (holiness being one of them). @Redneck You forget - Christians don't believe in the OT even though their basis for Jesus is supposidly supported by the very same thing they largley reject. Was Jesus not supposed to be a Great King and named Immanuel Hell, monkeyman, christians don't even believe in the bible because they never read it for themselves. They only believe what the preacher says the bible says. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 You got that right - Wonder what Iron Horse thinks - does he want to defend the OT that supports smashing childrens heads against rocks when they are disobedient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 24, 2014 You got that right - Wonder what Iron Horse thinks - does he want to defend the OT that supports smashing childrens heads against rocks when they are disobedient? I think that might have been what happened to Ironhorse. That would explain why he so stubbornly refuses to see reason; he had his reason knocked out of him by a stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 You got that right - Wonder what Iron Horse thinks - does he want to defend the OT that supports smashing childrens heads against rocks when they are disobedient? http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 You got that right - Wonder what Iron Horse thinks - does he want to defend the OT that supports smashing childrens heads against rocks when they are disobedient? http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites# Ironhorse, Now I am starting to think that you really are trolling. You will only piss people off posting links to William Lane Craig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 FYI: He's the exact parrot of WLC. This is who he's pointing to for answers, and you be the judge as to whether or not this is immoral bullshit. Also, I'm going to link another contradictory explanation by another apologist, Paul Copan. 2 vastly contradicting shit that both smell foul. WLC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc Paul Copan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1K8pEB2xic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Damn, for the 2nd time I'm too slow heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 William Lane Crag fallacy spam. The Bible offends our sensibility but our sensibility comes from the Bible!!!!!1!!! Circular reasoning is circular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 WLC's rationalization here is sick! Quote from article: "The problem, it seems to me, is that if God could not have issued such a command, then the biblical stories must be false. Either the incidents never really happened but are just Israeli folklore; or else, if they did, then Israel, carried away in a fit of nationalistic fervor, thinking that God was on their side, claimed that God had commanded them to commit these atrocities, when in fact He had not. In other words, this problem is really an objection to biblical inerrancy. In fact, ironically, many Old Testament critics are sceptical that the events of the conquest of Canaan ever occurred. They take these stories to be part of the legends of the founding of Israel, akin to the myths of Romulus and Remus and the founding of Rome. For such critics the problem of God’s issuing such a command evaporates. Now that puts the issue in quite a different perspective! The question of biblical inerrancy is an important one, but it’s not like the existence of God or the deity of Christ! If we Christians can’t find a good answer to the question before us and are, moreover, persuaded that such a command is inconsistent with God’s nature, then we’ll have to give up biblical inerrancy. But we shouldn’t let the unbeliever raising this question get away with thinking that it implies more than it does. I think that a good start at this problem is to enunciate our ethical theory that underlies our moral judgements. According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God. Since God doesn’t issue commands to Himself, He has no moral duties to fulfill." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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