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Goodbye Jesus

The Holy Spirit


Gamecock1973

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

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Goodbye Jesus

I thought this was logical too. I was told about the "priesthood of all believers" and that is one of the cornerstones of the Protestant reformation.  It doesn't jibe with pastors who just like to throw their authority around and boss women; and early on this made me very suspicious of any kind of spiritual authority, even though it was many years before I finally left the church for good.

 

Unfortunately, I also found spiritual authority in Buddhism. It is just as unwelcome there as in Christianity as far as I am concerned.  I am taught that we all have the "Buddha nature" and yet there is still a lama.  I view them strictly as teachers and toss the esoteric mumbo jumbo.

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It's Babel redux. There's Baptists, Protestants, Catholic, Marists, Methodists, Gnostics, Quakers, Shakers, Wankers, Faeceophagodominationists, Teddy Bear Adventists...

 

So, the claim to authority never came to, because people who set the agendas for these sects never could share the limelight. It's about greed, power and egoism, sadly enough. I'm just glad that we can now all guide ourselves, both in theory and in life without the the holy police breathing down our necks with fire. All hail the printing press, all hail the film and especially the Internet! :D

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That sounds like a perfectly reasonable and logical question.  Let's see if any of our resident apologists can come up with a satisfactory answer.

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OK, how would I have answered this thirty-five years ago?

 

The addressees in the scene where Jesus promises to send the HS, and the recipients of the HS at Pentecost, were THE ENTIRE CHURCH. It is the Church as a whole, not each individual acting alone, that the HS guides into all truth.

 

Other parts of the NT show the foundational and continuing role of the apostles, and their successors, in understanding and carrying on the Tradition.

 

In fact, scripture itself is but the chief part of Tradition. There is more, since the HS isn't just a book-inspirer.

 

Tradition is living, as per the original promise to send the HS, and there is a vehicle in which this happens - the Church. You recognize which group is the Church because Peter's successor continues to lead it.

 

So those who oppose Rome are heretics (believers in false doctrine, as warned against in the NT) or schismatics (break-aways like the Eastern Orthodox) or both.

 

Rome just changed the rules on sainthood so they can canonize friendly old Pope John XXIII and charismatic but crusty old John Paul II on Sunday. HS guides again. Let's not talk about all the abuse scandals JP II didn't investigate. Guess the HS didn't think they were important to shine any light on.

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But don't you see?  All contradictions are minor including the differing eyewitness accounts of the arrest, trial, crucifixion, burial, resurrection of zombie Christ.

 

Those contradictions just prove that the bible is true.

 

I wish I would've pulled this back in school. 

Teacher:  Roz, this essay has a lot of contradictions with the film you just saw about the life of jesus!

Roz:  I know it has different information than what the other students gave, but it's my eyewitness account of what happened

Teacher:  This looks like something you pulled from your backside!

Roz:  But the contradictions prove my account of the film is true!

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It was the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, repeated in the book of Hebrews. There shouldn't be any need for evangelism either.

 

"33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more." (ASV)

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Priests, pastors and other intermediaries are needed to (i) collect the money and (ii) continue the religious indoctrination.

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Follow the money.

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

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I love how they never really explain what "the holy spirit" really is. It's just this stuff. Invisible and imperceptible, but it's there 'cause we say it is. 

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Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

 

It couldn't be less straightforward if you tried.  I was a xian for the best part of 45 years.  I have just tried to read and understand this from an objective, rational point of view.  It is gobbledegook.  Makes absolutely no sense.  I facepalm myself yet again for believing in this shit.

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When I was a Christian I was plauged with guilt at times,  I had Chrisitans say it was the Holy Spirit 'Convcting me of Sin' and others saying it was a Demon 'Making me feel guilty for no reason just to be evil'  So the underlying quesiton is how the fuck can a Christian tell the difference.

 

We all know that a Demon can aparantly mask itself as an Angel of Light so how the hell can someone tell them both apart?  This confused the fuck out of me as a Christian as some said the Holy Spirit was a Spritual Being and others said it was an Actual Person?

 

I thought it was closer to Magic or Energy as opposed to a person?

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

 

I think the point, though, is: why not cut out the middle man?  If christians all have access to the holy spirit, then why should anyone have to speak on the holy spirit's behalf?  Wouldn't the holy spirit, who knows me better than any preacher (supposedly), be better qualified to teach me than a finite, albeit holier than me, human?

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

 

I think the point, though, is: why not cut out the middle man?  If christians all have access to the holy spirit, then why should anyone have to speak on the holy spirit's behalf?  Wouldn't the holy spirit, who knows me better than any preacher (supposedly), be better qualified to teach me than a finite, albeit holier than me, human?

 

Because I think we are also given grace......realizing that within our own walk, we are not the end all. But I don't see that as excluding us from helping/teaching.

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

 

I think the point, though, is: why not cut out the middle man?  If christians all have access to the holy spirit, then why should anyone have to speak on the holy spirit's behalf?  Wouldn't the holy spirit, who knows me better than any preacher (supposedly), be better qualified to teach me than a finite, albeit holier than me, human?

 

Because I think we are also given grace......realizing that within our own walk, we are not the end all. But I don't see that as excluding us from helping/teaching.

 

But isn't the holy spirit meant to be the end all?  And aren't christians meant to have direct access to him?

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit. The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them. Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth." Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them? Why was Paul and his letters necessary? Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live? For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit. It seems they should be good to go!

Seems rather straightforward. I gather we are all at a unique place in Christ. An easy analogy....if I were teaching holiness, I would teach the fundamentals first. I don't see the Holy Spirit as any different. Perhaps the initial charge of Holy Spirit humans received extra. I don't know. Heard that this has been taught but have a hard time with it myself. Have had this discussion before that holiness/godliness is a process. Who of us are finished? But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader.

I think the point, though, is: why not cut out the middle man? If christians all have access to the holy spirit, then why should anyone have to speak on the holy spirit's behalf? Wouldn't the holy spirit, who knows me better than any preacher (supposedly), be better qualified to teach me than a finite, albeit holier than me, human?

Because I think we are also given grace......realizing that within our own walk, we are not the end all. But I don't see that as excluding us from helping/teaching.

But isn't the holy spirit meant to be the end all? And aren't christians meant to have direct access to him?

As believers we had the spirit if we were true Christians, if we were deceived into thinking we had the Spirit we weren't saved, it was just self or demons tricking us. We had to receive a greater filling of the SAME spirit in order to be real, useful Christians and that same spirit gave us gifts and tongues which not all believers could receive but were supposed to because God wanted to pray through us to HIMSELF for some mysterious reason. Sometimes we couldn't feel or experience the spirit because some darker, seemingly more powerful spirit was in control. The Holy Spirit couldn't help us in those instances, we somehow, with no power, without the spirit had to defeat("renounce") these powers of darkness to allow Gods spirit to come and help us live victoriously. Guilt comes when there is no evidence of this activity in a believers life when they sincerely want to experience Gods power, they blame themselves for not being open enough, get angry, bitter and finally realise God is an illusion. Fuck the Holy Spirit!-Useless!

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If there were a HS in the world of Xtianity (basically, the West) Xtians would not be so materialistic. The Xtians would seek first the Kingdom of Heaven and eschew wealth. Today  the opposite is done by Xtians. But in Xtian history there were long periods of time in which many Xtians refusal to seek wealth. Indeed poverty was welcomed and honored. 

 

What happened? It failed. But was there ever a time when the Church itself eschewed wealth? Not to my knowledge. Doesn't that tell Xtians something? Oh, I forgot. The Church doesn't teach Xtian history. Hmmm.   Indeed, the fact that the real history of Xtianity is not taught by the Xtian Churches is one of the big telltale signs of the failure of the religion.   bill

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But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader. 

 

That makes sense, in context. However, the reality is that there are more than 40,000 such leaders ostensibly near the finish who all have different messages from the HS. What should we conclude from that fact? What is the most likely reason the messages vary so widely?

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So I was thinking about this...

 

Jesus ascended into heaven so that believers could receive the gift of the holy spirit.  The spirit of the all-knowing god of the universe now dwells within them.  Believers are told that this spirit will "guide them into all truth."  Setting aside the fact this is an utter failure and that there are 40,000 xtian denominations, shouldn't this make all teacher, preachers, and even the bible unnecessary???

 

I mean, if each believer not only has a direct line to god, but has his spirit WITHIN them guiding them into all truth, why do they need a pastor to instruct them?  Why was Paul and his letters necessary?  Shouldn't the holy spirit be telling believers the right way to live?  For that matter, why is any of the new testament necessary if one has the holy spirit to guide them?

 

As soon as one hears the message of the gospel, receives it and receives the holy spirit.  It seems they should be good to go!

afaik

pastor, offering and church building (including sacred objects) are the influence of pagan culture

in the bible, early christianity did not have pastor or special building

they were more spontaneous and more organic. everyone can share their faith and story about Christ

they were also move from one house to another rather than specialized building because their understanding was church is their body, not a building. 

and they did not have burnt offering because they believed that christ is the ultimate sacrifice for human

 

most likely this influence came from emperor constatine that even though gave christianity freedom, was actually still a pagan, thus he is still using pagan mindset rather than christianity

some of proof including:

1. constatine never abandoned sun worship:

    -  he kept sun in his coin

    -  he built the statue of sun god in his new capital of constatinopel

    -  he built the statue of cybele

2. in AD 321 he decreed sunday as the day of rest, and most likely to honour mithras, the unconquered sun (sunday: day of the sun)

3. mosaic of christ as unqonquered sun in st peter excavation

4. he retain the title pontifex maximus almost to his dying day ( chief of pagan priest) -> function like catholic pope 

5. he blessed his new capital with pagan magic formula to protect crops and heal desease

6. church of apostle in constatinople included 12 apostles statues circling a single tomb reserved for himself, making him the 13th and chief apostle - > pagan practise to honour the death and as significant death

7. he was delcared divine (pagan god) by senate after he died

8. obsession of sacred object and relic (from pagan influenced) : he promotes the idea that the woods came from christ cross possessed spiritual power

 

thus, if a church say they do everything by the book, it's BS

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     Everyone gets the spirit.  But they are still of the world.  So they are corrupt as a result.  So they don't get the message of the spirit so well.  Like tuning in a radio.  Some hear it mostly static, some a little better, some better and some pretty clear but never absolutely perfect (since they are in their human and corrupt state).  So they more "godly" you are the better you're tuning in the spirit station and the less godly the worse you're tuning it in and the more static you're getting.  Everyone who has the spirit hears it but with more or less static (more or less perfectly) depending on how godly they are.  So it's important to be as godly as possible.

 

     Anyhow, this is how everyone hears the same exact message but gets something different, sometimes wildly different, from it.  And this is why you need a pastor.  He is (supposed to be) more godly than his flock and getting a clearer message than they are.  He can help clarify messages for you until you advance to a more godly state (which you might never do since you are living in the world more than he does...he is committed to study and worship in an on-going basis unlike most in his flock).

 

     Anyhow, like I said, these men, godly as they are, are still human and imperfect.  So they still get parts of the message wrong.  This is why there are so many sects.  This is also why we need Jesus to return, the only man, who is also god, that can truly understand the message in its perfect form, it is his message after all, and unite the religion again.

 

          mwc

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     Everyone gets the spirit.  But they are still of the world.  So they are corrupt as a result.  So they don't get the message of the spirit so well.  Like tuning in a radio.  Some hear it mostly static, some a little better, some better and some pretty clear but never absolutely perfect (since they are in their human and corrupt state).  So they more "godly" you are the better you're tuning in the spirit station and the less godly the worse you're tuning it in and the more static you're getting.  Everyone who has the spirit hears it but with more or less static (more or less perfectly) depending on how godly they are.  So it's important to be as godly as possible.

 

    

God sure builds shitty radios. All creation in 6 days, no problem.  A static-free radio, impossible!

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But I can see placing a pastor, someone more on the finished end as a leader. 

 

That makes sense, in context. However, the reality is that there are more than 40,000 such leaders ostensibly near the finish who all have different messages from the HS. What should we conclude from that fact? What is the most likely reason the messages vary so widely?

 

But what happens if the person you think is more on the finished end is actually being deceived by a spirit that is appearing as an "angel of light"?

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Professor, the message doesn't vary widely.. it varies with each individual. No religious person understands their theology like another.. it's not possible - because interpretation is necessary.

 

But metaphysically…(hypothetically) if the spirit of god dwells within, it should be IMPOSSIBLE to sin or to misunderstand god's word since it would be much more powerful than the spirit of man. Jesus alludes to this when he says repent and sin no more… and when he speaks about the holy spirit. All should be of one accord… there would be no confusion

 

like the Borg 'hive mind', I guess.

 

;)

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Professor, the message doesn't vary widely.. it varies with each individual. No religious person understands their theology like another.. it's not possible - because interpretation is necessary.

 

But metaphysically…(hypothetically) if the spirit of god dwells within, it should be IMPOSSIBLE to sin or to misunderstand god's word since it would be much more powerful than the spirit of man. Jesus alludes to this when he says repent and sin no more… and when he speaks about the holy spirit. All should be of one accord… there would be no confusion

 

like the Borg 'hive mind', I guess.

 

wink.png

I agree in theory, Ravenstar.  But in practice, there are 41,000 different interpretations of what is supposed to be god's divine revelation of himself.  Given that, I'd say, in practice, at least, the message does vary widely.  Personally, I'd prefer a christian version of the Borg "hive mind" to what we currently have.

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