No Shit Sherlock

[Roz]

This is what the personal guidance of the 'holy spirit' and personal relationship with 'jesus' leads christians
I'll be very surprised if any of them truly see themselves as one of these caricatures and actually second guess their mental conditioning

 

[Aggie]

 

 

 

I actively seek the truth on all matters. I'm not in a mindset to reject truth when I find it

even if it does shatter a previously held belief. 

But when we show you historical sources about the crusades, the inquisition, and witch trials, you still maintain your belief that all those sources aren't telling the truth that xianity was spread by force.

 

 

 

To say that atrocities were committed by some during the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the witch trials.

I agree. Almost all of these crimes were ordered by a state church. That is a true statement.

 

To say that Christianity was spread by force is false.

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Explain what you mean by "To say that Christianity was spread by force is false."  How do explain such a claim??

 

So if a "state church" compels Christianity, it's no longer Christianity?  Such people weren't Christians?  Wouldn't it be more tenable to say that many Christians sinned doing such things?

 

Protestant Refomers (Calvin and Zwingli are good examples), Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, etc have jailed, tortured, and killed heretics.  Were none of these Christians?

 

If such things are inherently evil, then God commanded evil:

 

 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock (Deut 13:12-15).

[Guest]

 

Reply from my pastor, I thought I would post this in the Den (because hey, the Den's fun). 

What struck me funny is the part highlighted in red.

 

 

 

Roz, before you open this- No matter where you are at with God or disbelief in God, your greatest opportunity to understand some of these Texts and quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy will be to read it prayerfully beforehand and afterward.  Unless you are open to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit- all the logic in the world that you can muster will fall way short.

 

Just for clarification:

Spirit of Prophecy = Ellen White's writings (now christians, do you believe in Ellen White?)

Voice of the Holy Spirit = same Holy Spirit that led Ellen White to write (plagiarize) her books, and the same Holy Spirit the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons believe led their leaders to make up all their doctrines

 

Here's my question, christians.  Why are you so sure about your own beliefs when they inevitably clash with another christian's beliefs?  If you can't answer this, think about it before going out to convert people into your flavor of christianity.

 

I'm a fundamentalist in my core beliefs. By this I mean that there

are a few essential teachings of scripture that are beyond compromise.

 

They are:

 

-There is only one true God revealed in three expressions---Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

 

-The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.

-That humans willingly fell to sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

-That any person can have restored fellowship with God through 'Salvation' (trusting Christ, through faith and repentance. Salvation by grace, not of works.

 

I do not clash with any other Christian who holds to these fundamental beliefs. I'm game to discuss and debate issues that Christians differ on, but if we don't agree, it does not affect my faith.

 

 

So, what do you feel about the fact those first 2 "core" teachings were voted on by men attending the first council of Nicea in 325 C.E.?

[mymistake]

Seems fair Roz that an open mind is somewhat a necessity for belief. To your question, we are all in a different place and what speaks to us with respect to "holy" could be specific to circumstance and perspective. Is that the HS speaking to each? Good question.

 

 

You got that backwards.  An open mind is poison to Christianity.  An open mind considers alternatives and in the comparison that Christianity loses.  The result is ex-Christians.  A closed mind is necessary for belief.  A closed mind say that the religion I stumbled upon by chance is better than all those other flawed religions.  A closed mind shuts out all other possibilities.  Christian theology starts to look solid when every other idea is removed from consideration.

[Guest end3]

 

Seems fair Roz that an open mind is somewhat a necessity for belief. To your question, we are all in a different place and what speaks to us with respect to "holy" could be specific to circumstance and perspective. Is that the HS speaking to each? Good question.

 

 

You got that backwards.  An open mind is poison to Christianity.  An open mind considers alternatives and the comparison that Christianity loses.  The result is ex-Christians.  A closed mind is necessary for belief.  A closed mind say that the religion I stumbled upon by chance is better than all those other flawed religions.  A closed mind shuts out all other possibilities.  Christian theology starts to look solid when every other idea is removed from consideration.

 

Just saying I think it can work both ways MM. One may have an "prayerful/open" mind towards an avenue one wishes to travel and close out the "truth" by closing another door. Then we get back into what is holy, what is godly blah blah.

[Ravenstar]

[Roz]

And when asked for proof, in the end all they can give is anecdotal recollections.  Then they call skeptics closed minded for not believing in anecdotal recollections because "everyone is different."

[Guest end3]

??? Don't just bang your head....enlighten us.

[Guest end3]

And when asked for proof, in the end all they can give is anecdotal recollections.  Then they call skeptics closed minded for not believing in anecdotal recollections because "everyone is different."

And how is this unreal or invalid?

[Ravenstar]

REAL: Physical, verifiable, reproducible evidence.

[Roz]

 

And when asked for proof, in the end all they can give is anecdotal recollections.  Then they call skeptics closed minded for not believing in anecdotal recollections because "everyone is different."

And how is this unreal or invalid?

 

 

Your private revelations from this 'holy spirit' is as much proof of those 19 men who killed 3000+ people that fateful day.  Their revelations led them to think that that was the correct course of action.  I bet that you condemn those acts.  By your logic, what gives you the right to denounce their faith, their version of the 'holy spirit', as invalid while your faith is valid.

 

By the same token, take John Calvin, who burned his friend just because that friend said something different from him.  He was acting by guidance from this 'holy spirit' as well.  

[Guest end3]

REAL: Physical, verifiable, reproducible evidence.

Not sure it matters if it changed the course of action for someone. And, not sure we will ever get to a point where we can predict the output of a brain vs. the input.

 

AND, if you somehow did that, then you are going to be the truth police?.....per your genetics and the temperature and angle of the sun you are making this decision which is by default against what we know to be fact.....therefore the fact is that your brain is producing anomalous data and we find you guilty of our reality.

 

Where does your real road lead R?

[Roz]

 

REAL: Physical, verifiable, reproducible evidence.

Not sure it matters if it changed the course of action for someone. And, not sure we will ever get to a point where we can predict the output of a brain vs. the input.

 

AND, if you somehow did that, then you are going to be the truth police?.....per your genetics and the temperature and angle of the sun you are making this decision which is by default against what we know to be fact.....therefore the fact is that your brain is producing anomalous data and we find you guilty of our reality.

 

Where does your real road lead R?

 

 

Perfect case in point.  Let's apply your reasoning.

 

Moses said "kill everyone in that town, everyone."  Why?  He got revelation from god.

 

You desperately want your metaphysical personal revelation to hold as much weight and be as valid as any proven fact.  So you call skeptics closed minded. 

 

It's honestly like those creationists who "just want to teach the controversy."  That's what you sound like.  Just 'teach the controversy' but use our own ancient story book's narrative for it.

[midniterider]

REAL: Physical, verifiable, reproducible evidence.

 

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck , it's a duck.

If it never walks, talks, or even appears at all then it must be JESUS, Lord and Savior of the Christian People!!!! Praise his silent absentness.

[midniterider]

I do not clash with any other Christian who holds to these fundamental beliefs. I'm game to discuss and debate issues that Christians differ on, but if we don't agree, it does not affect my faith.

 

 

Well, of course it doesn't affect your faith. This is that 'open mind' End3 is talking about. :-) The 'open mind' to believe that Jesus is your Lord even if people present logical arguments or other evidence to the contrary. You will believe that because you have been programmed to do so and your open mind will not allow other contradictory ideas to mess with your fantasy beliefs.

[midniterider]

 

I actively seek the truth on all matters. I'm not in a mindset to reject truth when I find it

even if it does shatter a previously held belief.

 

Yet you reject all the 'truth' given to you by ex-Christians in the Lion's Den.

[mymistake]

 

 

Seems fair Roz that an open mind is somewhat a necessity for belief. To your question, we are all in a different place and what speaks to us with respect to "holy" could be specific to circumstance and perspective. Is that the HS speaking to each? Good question.

 

 

You got that backwards.  An open mind is poison to Christianity.  An open mind considers alternatives and the comparison that Christianity loses.  The result is ex-Christians.  A closed mind is necessary for belief.  A closed mind say that the religion I stumbled upon by chance is better than all those other flawed religions.  A closed mind shuts out all other possibilities.  Christian theology starts to look solid when every other idea is removed from consideration.

 

Just saying I think it can work both ways MM. One may have an "prayerful/open" mind towards an avenue one wishes to travel and close out the "truth" by closing another door. Then we get back into what is holy, what is godly blah blah.

 

 

You think what is wrong.  Open minded does not mean prayerful.  Going the way you want to go isn't open minded.  Open minded means you consider all and weigh each idea by it's own merit and the quality of the information you have.  Example:  Today we have better information on the Higgs Boson than we had a few years ago.  That means our ideas are better than they were before but we still don't have enough information to know if there is one Higgs or several.  On the other hand we have plenty of information regarding the idea that Earth is flat.  We can be certain that idea has no merit.  It's not closed minded to conclude that Earth is not flat.  After considering the possibilities and evidence we know Earth is round.

[Vigile]

I don't think everyone is physically capable of believing in reality, to be brutally honest.  I'm sorry Henry, if you read this, but one of your last posts before returning to christianity was "don't you atheists feel alone and vulnerable?"

 

Some just need to believe in a sweet lie than accept reality.

Most that do seem to lack imagination, in my experience. They seem to imply that reality is constrictive, whereas their magic world is infinite. This, all at the expense of an infinite and wonderful reality that they are mostly unaware of and don't understand or even try to.

[Roz]

Update:  This is on what the 'Spirit of Prophecy' says about the golden calf incident.  I just copied and pasted this part of his email.  All highlights and colors were his. 

 

When Moses, on returning to the camp, confronted the rebels, his severe rebukes and the indignation he displayed in breaking the sacred tables of the law were contrasted by the people with his brother's pleasant speech and dignified demeanor, and their sympathies were with Aaron. To justify himself, Aaron endeavored to make the people responsible for his weakness in yielding to their demand; but notwithstanding this, they were filled with admiration of his gentleness and patience. But God seeth not as man sees. Aaron's yielding spirit and his desire to please had blinded his eyes to the enormity of the crime he was sanctioning. His course in giving his influence to sin in Israel cost the life of thousands. In what contrast with this was the course of Moses, who, while faithfully executing God's judgments, showed that the welfare of Israel was dearer to him than prosperity or honor or life.  {PP 323.2} 

 

     Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. God would have His servants prove their loyalty by faithfully rebuking transgression, however painful the act may be. Those who are honored with a divine commission are not to be weak, pliant time-servers. They are not to aim at self-exaltation, or to shun disagreeable duties, but to perform God's work with unswerving fidelity.  {PP 323.3}

 

     Though God had granted the prayer of Moses in sparing Israel from destruction, their apostasy was to be signally punished. The lawlessness and insubordination into which Aaron had permitted them to fall, if not speedily crushed, would run riot in wickedness, and would involve the nation in irretrievable ruin. By terrible severity the evil must be put away. Standing in the gate of the camp, Moses called to the people, "Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me." Those who had not joined in the apostasy were to take their position at the right of Moses; those who were guilty but repentant, at the left. The command was obeyed. It was found that the tribe of Levi had taken no part in the idolatrous worship. From among other tribes there were great numbers who, although they had sinned, now signified their repentance. But a large company, mostly of the mixed multitude that instigated the making of the calf, stubbornly persisted in their rebellion. In the name of "the Lord God of Israel," Moses now commanded those upon his right hand, who had kept themselves clear of idolatry, to gird on their swords and slay all who persisted in rebellion. "And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men." Without regard to position, kindred, or friendship, the ringleaders in wickedness were cut off; but all who repented and humbled themselves were spared.  {PP 324.1} 

 

     Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi.  {PP 324.2} 

 

Yes, this is what Ellen White, the prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventist church, wrote about the calf incident. 

The will of god/allah/yaweh/jesus must be done.  when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed.

 

When god calls you to do something, he is to be obeyed.  This is part of what this pastor gave me to read.  Those Levites, because they took their swords and ran their neighbors through, were to be commended, and god gave them a special honor.

 

This is the same 'holy spirit' that directs IH's life, that guides End3's life, right now.  It's the same 'holy spirit' that guides all christians.  What's worse is that they want others to respect their beliefs because 'it's what the holy spirit showed me.'  That 'holy spirit' is what showed this scene to Ellen White, and what guided her as she wrote these words.

 

Yet they condemn the atrocities of Islam.  I say condemn all atrocities, but the main point is this.  When all you have is your own self experiences as evidence, please critically examine it before attempting to witness to others about 'how jesus and his holy semen... er spirit...' showed you the 'true' way.

[Deva]

Reality is pitiless and brutal in many ways. It simply cannot measure up (in many people's minds) to a "God who so loved the world" and "Jesus loves you, this I know", etc..

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Unless you presented the initial physical evidence of speaking in tongues, you never had the True Spirit^TM anyway.  

[Neverlandrut]

Reply from my pastor, I thought I would post this in the Den (because hey, the Den's fun).

What struck me funny is the part highlighted in red.

 

Roz, before you open this- No matter where you are at with God or disbelief in God, your greatest opportunity to understand some of these Texts and quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy will be to read it prayerfully beforehand and afterward. Unless you are open to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit- all the logic in the world that you can muster will fall way short.

Just for clarification:

Spirit of Prophecy = Ellen White's writings (now christians, do you believe in Ellen White?)

Voice of the Holy Spirit = same Holy Spirit that led Ellen White to write (plagiarize) her books, and the same Holy Spirit the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons believe led their leaders to make up all their doctrines

 

Here's my question, christians. Why are you so sure about your own beliefs when they inevitably clash with another christian's beliefs? If you can't answer this, think about it before going out to convert people into your flavor of christianity.

I raised an eyebrow when my pastor told me to pray about it. I thought to myself, "OH MY GOD! your right. How could I have been so blind? Pray! Never tried that before!" Yeah, definitely a "believe first, and it'll make sense later" ploy.

[Guest end3]

Update:  This is on what the 'Spirit of Prophecy' says about the golden calf incident.  I just copied and pasted this part of his email.  All highlights and colors were his. 

 

When Moses, on returning to the camp, confronted the rebels, his severe rebukes and the indignation he displayed in breaking the sacred tables of the law were contrasted by the people with his brother's pleasant speech and dignified demeanor, and their sympathies were with Aaron. To justify himself, Aaron endeavored to make the people responsible for his weakness in yielding to their demand; but notwithstanding this, they were filled with admiration of his gentleness and patience. But God seeth not as man sees. Aaron's yielding spirit and his desire to please had blinded his eyes to the enormity of the crime he was sanctioning. His course in giving his influence to sin in Israel cost the life of thousands. In what contrast with this was the course of Moses, who, while faithfully executing God's judgments, showed that the welfare of Israel was dearer to him than prosperity or honor or life.  {PP 323.2} 

 

     Of all the sins that God will punish, none are more grievous in His sight than those that encourage others to do evil. God would have His servants prove their loyalty by faithfully rebuking transgression, however painful the act may be. Those who are honored with a divine commission are not to be weak, pliant time-servers. They are not to aim at self-exaltation, or to shun disagreeable duties, but to perform God's work with unswerving fidelity.  {PP 323.3}

 

     Though God had granted the prayer of Moses in sparing Israel from destruction, their apostasy was to be signally punished. The lawlessness and insubordination into which Aaron had permitted them to fall, if not speedily crushed, would run riot in wickedness, and would involve the nation in irretrievable ruin. By terrible severity the evil must be put away. Standing in the gate of the camp, Moses called to the people, "Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me." Those who had not joined in the apostasy were to take their position at the right of Moses; those who were guilty but repentant, at the left. The command was obeyed. It was found that the tribe of Levi had taken no part in the idolatrous worship. From among other tribes there were great numbers who, although they had sinned, now signified their repentance. But a large company, mostly of the mixed multitude that instigated the making of the calf, stubbornly persisted in their rebellion. In the name of "the Lord God of Israel," Moses now commanded those upon his right hand, who had kept themselves clear of idolatry, to gird on their swords and slay all who persisted in rebellion. "And there fell of the people that day about three thousand men." Without regard to position, kindred, or friendship, the ringleaders in wickedness were cut off; but all who repented and humbled themselves were spared.  {PP 324.1} 

 

     Those who performed this terrible work of judgment were acting by divine authority, executing the sentence of the King of heaven. Men are to beware how they, in their human blindness, judge and condemn their fellow men; but when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed. Those who performed this painful act, thus manifested their abhorrence of rebellion and idolatry, and consecrated themselves more fully to the service of the true God. The Lord honored their faithfulness by bestowing special distinction upon the tribe of Levi.  {PP 324.2} 

 

Yes, this is what Ellen White, the prophetess of the Seventh-day Adventist church, wrote about the calf incident. 

The will of god/allah/yaweh/jesus must be done.  when God commands them to execute His sentence upon iniquity, He is to be obeyed.

 

When god calls you to do something, he is to be obeyed.  This is part of what this pastor gave me to read.  Those Levites, because they took their swords and ran their neighbors through, were to be commended, and god gave them a special honor.

 

This is the same 'holy spirit' that directs IH's life, that guides End3's life, right now.  It's the same 'holy spirit' that guides all christians.  What's worse is that they want others to respect their beliefs because 'it's what the holy spirit showed me.'  That 'holy spirit' is what showed this scene to Ellen White, and what guided her as she wrote these words.

 

Yet they condemn the atrocities of Islam.  I say condemn all atrocities, but the main point is this.  When all you have is your own self experiences as evidence, please critically examine it before attempting to witness to others about 'how jesus and his holy semen... er spirit...' showed you the 'true' way.

I don't know about you Roz. It appears God chooses life and instructs for life. Will choosing idols result in God's definition of life? If God was with them at that time, isn't that what everyone here would wish now? Ex-er..."I prayed and prayed but God never answered". Well, he answered then, but humanity didn't want that either. Are you smart enough Roz to figure out what life is on your own? By the looks of your post sir, you have a way to go. So my advice to you would be to keep walking with your mouth primarily shut, but your eyes wide open.

[Roz]

 

I don't know about you Roz. It appears God chooses life and instructs for life. Will choosing idols result in God's definition of life? If God was with them at that time, isn't that what everyone here would wish now? Ex-er..."I prayed and prayed but God never answered". Well, he answered then, but humanity didn't want that either. Are you smart enough Roz to figure out what life is on your own? By the looks of your post sir, you have a way to go. So my advice to you would be to keep walking with your mouth primarily shut, but your eyes wide open.

 

 

This from the christian who would kill children, old adults, and rape young girls if god ordered him to do it. 

 

 

Roz,

 

  Let me attempt an answer.  If the God of the OT were in front of me, I might surely do what he told me to do.

 

Again, all you're doing is spewing your own ideas and conclusions without any evidence to back it up.  Your ideas are just yours, just like this pastor's.  Just like Ellen White's.  Just like Joseph Smith's.  Just like the authors of the bible.

 

Yet you want these ideas of yours to be taken seriously?

[Guest end3]

 

I don't know about you Roz. It appears God chooses life and instructs for life. Will choosing idols result in God's definition of life? If God was with them at that time, isn't that what everyone here would wish now? Ex-er..."I prayed and prayed but God never answered". Well, he answered then, but humanity didn't want that either. Are you smart enough Roz to figure out what life is on your own? By the looks of your post sir, you have a way to go. So my advice to you would be to keep walking with your mouth primarily shut, but your eyes wide open.

 

This from the christian who would kill children, old adults, and rape young girls if god ordered him to do it. 

 

 

Roz,

 

  Let me attempt an answer.  If the God of the OT were in front of me, I might surely do what he told me to do.

 

Again, all you're doing is spewing your own ideas and conclusions without any evidence to back it up.  Your ideas are just yours, just like this pastor's.  Just like Ellen White's.  Just like Joseph Smith's.  Just like the authors of the bible.

 

Yet you want these ideas of yours to be taken seriously?

 

Let me ask you a question Roz. We do sentence people to death? You don't though....