God's Mighty Plan Of Salvation

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Lucifer was not the author of evil. The satan was one of god's host who played a role in the heavenly court…he did god's bidding, haven't you read Job? What God did to Job was cruel and evil and narcissistic.

 

Well, to be honest, what Lucifer did in the book of Job wasn't entirely following Yahweh's instructions. He basically made a bet with Yahweh, saying, "If I do X to Job, he will do Y." Yahweh's response was, "Go ahead and do X, but instead, Z will happen." so Lucifer went ahead and did what he wanted to anyway.

 

Sure, what Yahweh did to Job was cruel as well. Though Job was supposed to be an obedient follower, Yahweh did nothing to stop Lucifer or to help Job out (you know that already of course, but it's a part of what I'm trying to say). Instead of sparing Job the pain and stopping the Satan, he stood by and watched and then gave Job a lecture when he asked, "Why? Why would you let this happen?" The fact that Lucifer and Yahweh were both cruel in this story and basically ganged up on Job doesn't necessarily mean they were on the same side, it simply means that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and they were having a competition.

[zuker12]

To me there are only two solutions to this dilemma.

 

1) If Adam and Eve had no capacity to understand evil, then they can't be held responsible for what they did. God for some reason made the tree of knowledge, knowing full-well (assuming omniscience) what would happen. He even let a talking snake (later to be assumed as Satan) come in the garden to tempt them, when they didn't have full knowledge of things. They can't be assumed to. The snake then didn't lie; they didn't die when they ate the fruit. I'm not sure if they even understood what death meant. Worst of all, this could have been fixed with a simple snap of fingers (assuming omnipotence) but instead we get beaten over it, cursed and forced to live our lives in perpetual suffering.

 

2) If Adam and Eve had the capacity to sin from the beginning, then God made a mistake when he made us. He left us with our sinful natures to play with sinful things and let a snake come into the garden to tempt us. We can't be held responsible for something that is inherently within us; we cannot decide on that. If god made our sin-nature, he is fully responsible for what happens (knowing ahead of time each and every event that happens in our lives due to our natures.)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Gus, I will say that you have done a much more thorough and lucid job than most of our apologists.  Unfortunately, you still use many of the same tactics and arguments they do.  That can't be avoided, I suppose; but hopefully someday you will be able to see religion for the sheer ridiculousness it is.  With that said, your thoughts are still in blue...

 

This verse from Isiah only uses the word evil in maybe two translations including the King James. But in most it does not. It uses words such as darkness, calamity and disaster which is the correct translation of the Hebrew text.

We can clearly see in some examples of the Old Testament such as the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gommorah that God can indeed bring disaster and calamity.

This is the only verse, in maybe 2 translations that say God created evil. There are hundreds in all tranlations that say God hates evil.

So did God create evil? No he did not.

 

Here again you are simply trying to argue that the bible doesn't mean what it says.  And you whinge on about translations as if an omniscient god couldn't find a decent translator for his most important book.  That god can and does bring floods, destruction, disaster, calamity, and turn people into salt perfectly demonstrates the evilness of his nature.

 

Evil is not a product, it can’t just be present. It is the absence of good. God would have known what evil people could do and how evil destroys lives. So it did not exist, it was knowledge of what would happen.

 

This is simply disingenuous.  Evil was clearly embodied as a choice.  How could Eve have chosen evil if it didn't exist?  It did exist and god knew it, which is precisely why it was evil of him to leave the ultimate choice in the hands of a naive and ill-informed person.

 

Again this is down to translation. Some Bibles don’t have the word day. The Hebrew word used here meant a ‘yom’ not a 24 hour day. A yom is a period of time. When God said he would die, he meant it. He did not say ‘today’ he said ‘this day’ or ‘this yom’, meaning a period of time.

 

Quit telling me the bible doesn't mean what it says.  The text of genesis 1 makes it plain what god meant when he said "day".  There was an evening and a morning: the first DAY.  This whole argument over whether the bible means what it says is tired and played out.  If you can pick any verse out and claim it doesn't mean what it says then you have no way of knowing what ANY of the bible means.  You therefore cannot hold it to be true, but you do.  Stop contradicting yourself in this manner.

 

I have shown that is not true. It is not what the Bible actually says.

 

I have shown how you contradict yourself.  And I mean what I say.

 

Just because you don’t read it, does not mean that conversation did not take place. God could well have instructed her. You are making an assumption.

She did not mis-understand. Satan was influencing her thoughts, as we will see in a bit.

 

Just because you don't read about Thor's glorious defeat of the Ice Giants in the bible doesn't mean it never happened.  It is you who are making an assumption.  I make none; I go strictly by the text.  Perhaps you weren't aware that the Hebrews do not view the serpent as Satan?  In the text, according to Judaic tradition, the serpent merely represents humanity's evil inclination.  Another assumption on your part.  Furthermore, the serpent was not influencing her thoughts; it was merely telling her the truth, which god conveniently forgot to do.

 

Eve was not on her own. Adam was right by her side. God told them what to do, it was up them to follow that or not.

Neither Adam or Eve knew of evil at the time, as they where, as you say , in a sinless state, and had not yet had knowledge of good and evil……

 

Here you are just superimposing your own thoughts over what the bible actually says.  We have no idea where Adam was.  He may have been right by her side, or he may have been on the other side of the garden for all we know.  His silence during Eve's conversation with the serpent, however, would suggest he was not present.  Granted, they may not have known of evil, or understood it, but Eve's ability to experience envy demonstrates that they had the capacity to do evil.  god simply used the fruit as the catalyst by which that evil could be unleashed.

 

Again a huge assumption. As we where not there we have any idea what anyone was thinking or feeling.

 

This from a guy who just got done telling me that Adam was standing right next to Eve?  Go home, Gus; you're drunk.

 

The only thing the Bible says is that Eve thought the fruit was pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining knowledge. There was no harm in gaining knowledge in her eyes as God had just given them the earth to go out and discovery and learn all about.

It was not pride; it was Satan lying to her.

 

Again, the serpent does not represent satan, nor was the serpent lying to her.  Everything the serpent said to her was true.  And, yes, it was pride.  If god had wanted to give her knowledge, he would have.  She wanted to take it for herself, rather than trusting god.

 

Satan’s introduction line was “Did God really say…?” he was trying to make Eve believe that god was a liar. That’s when Eve mentions about touching the fruit in her response. God never said that, but she was starting to have doubt put in her mind.

 

Why would the serpent need to convince Eve that god was a liar when god clearly never spoke to Eve.  And how does Eve's misunderstanding indicate doubt, exactly?  Again, the fact that god withheld information concerning Original Sin and eternal damnation proves he had no interest in truth or in preventing Eve from making a bad choice.

 

The answer is “YES”. Even Jesus, who was sinless perfection, had doubts. But he did not act on them. Eve doubted after being pressured by Satan, and then gave in.

Satan tried the exact same tactic with Jesus in the dessert, asking him “if you are really….”

 

The serpent in no way, shape, or form pressured Eve.  He simply asked her a question and upon receiving her answer he told her the truth.  He wasn't hanging from a branch saying, "Go ahead... you know you want to... do it... do it, Eve."  You are again trying to write the story how you think it should have been, rather than being honest and true to what it actually says.

 

That is quite a plan!

You have missed out an important person in all of this, that being Satan, or Lucifer, as he was known at the time.

 

The cause of all sin was Satan, and Satan alone.

 

I didn't miss out on satan because he was not in the story.

 

Adam and eve must have been made perfect.

 

You just described jesus as "sinless perfection".  By your own words, had Adam and Eve been perfect, they would not have been able to sin.  They did sin.  They were, therefore, not perfect.  Stop contradicting yourself.

 

God created Lucifer. An Angel. Angels also have free choice to do good or evil. We can see this as many angels followed Lucifer.

Lucifer was most likely sent to the garden to minster and care for Adam and Eve. He had not yet fallen.

If God put Adam and Eve in with the Devil as a dangerous adversary, it would be foolish.

But somewhere, Lucifer saw an opportunity to gain power. Knowing he could never take on God directly, he saw God give earth to Adam.

So he saw this as an opportunity to gain power by taking it from Adam. Hence why he is called the ‘prince of this earth’.

God could not just take it back, as it was legally satan’s now, and God does not go back on his word.

So Jesus had to come to take it back as a man, as it had been given to man.

 

Now you're just guessing.

 

Unfortunately, as I pointed out several times, Gus, you have a bad habit of wanting to re-write the bible to make it say what you think it should.  This is precisely the reason I embedded the text of the entire story of the "fall" into my OP, so that I would be held accountable for staying true to what is actually written.  Rewording the bible is a pretty common christian practice, so I won't fault you for trying it.  Good effort, but your arguments, I'm afraid, simply aren't convincing.

 

Cheers,

TRP (or RNP, as you like it)

[sdelsolray]

 

Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

I stated that I was dissucssing the themes that Redneck brought up and in fact asked me if I would like to have this thread started.

 

So I give a response and get the usual 'Gus is right according to Gus etc...'

Redneck starts with a bold OP with several unsubstantiated claims and gets 'yeah great post bro whoo!!' (or something to that ened)

Not exactly showing impartiality.

 

 

 

If you are "usually" or frequently getting feedback of this sort, you may wish to consider that feedback.  Whinning about it won't do much, particularly if the "usual" and frequent observations of others is true.  Your appearance of correctness has not yet risen to the level or sanctimony or hubris.  If you catch it early and repair it, it will likely do you good.

 

As I mentioned in a different post in another thread, I personally don't care what you merely believe.  When you claim truth or claim to be the owner of particular knowledge (and those claims are merely asserted), I will ask for relevant empirical evidence.  Indeed, I have already done so to you in another post.  You failed to respond.  Why am I not surprised?

 

 

​As to your alleged belief of correctness, this is a rather common Theist trait.  Again, why am I not surprised?

[par4dcourse]

Not exactly showing impartiality.

Sorry if we were acting like this is an Ex-Christian site or something.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Christian Apologetics are a hoot, particularly from one as self-assured of his correctness as Gus.  Yes, Gus has it all figured out, at least according to Gus.

I stated that I was dissucssing the themes that Redneck brought up and in fact asked me if I would like to have this thread started.

 

So I give a response and get the usual 'Gus is right according to Gus etc...'

Redneck starts with a bold OP with several unsubstantiated claims and gets 'yeah great post bro whoo!!' (or something to that ened)

Not exactly showing impartiality.

 

Actually, every "claim" I made was supported by scripture.  To call them unsubstantiated is a bit inaccurate.

[mymistake]

This verse from Isiah only uses the word evil in maybe two translations including the King James. But in most it does not. It uses words such as darkness, calamity and disaster which is the correct translation of the Hebrew text.

We can clearly see in some examples of the Old Testament such as the flood, destruction of Sodom and Gommorah that God can indeed bring disaster and calamity.

This is the only verse, in maybe 2 translations that say God created evil. There are hundreds in all tranlations that say God hates evil.

So did God create evil? No he did not.

 

 

Have you ever had your entire community wiped out by a calamity when there was no human medical technology to save anybody?  Asserting a different translation is merely semantics and does not help you.  That the Bible says God hates evil and God created evil is evidence that the Bible authors did not agree with each other.  It is one of the many contradictions in the Bible.

 

 

 

Evil is not a product, it can’t just be present. It is the absence of good. God would have known what evil people could do and how evil destroys lives. So it did not exist, it was knowledge of what would happen.

 

 

 

Actually evil is a construct.  It is the word humans use to describe when much of life is going fundamentally contrary to our instincts about how life should work.  Your definition is messed up.  God is a myth.

 

 

 

Again this is down to translation. Some Bibles don’t have the word day. The Hebrew word used here meant a ‘yom’ not a 24 hour day. A yom is a period of time. When God said he would die, he meant it. He did not say ‘today’ he said ‘this day’ or ‘this yom’, meaning a period of time.

 

Adam and Eve were never real people.  But have you stopped to think about what life would be like if all the humans and animals born in the last six thousand years were still alive today?  We wouldn't have room to walk.  With no infant mortality rate our population would have exploded millennia ago.  With nowhere to go you would literally be walking on top of other people.  And wouldn't you be in constant pain with always craving food when there is no food to be had?

 

Christian myths are silly.

 

 

 

I have shown that is not true. It is not what the Bible actually says.

 

No, you asserted the translation was wrong and never bothered to prove your case or notice that the semantics doesn't help you.  The Bible is full on contradictions.  It's a mess.

 

 

 

Just because you don’t read it, does not mean that conversation did not take place. God could well have instructed her. You are making an assumption.

She did not mis-understand. Satan was influencing her thoughts, as we will see in a bit.

 

You are making assumptions and reading into it what is not there.

 

 

Eve was not on her own. Adam was right by her side. God told them what to do, it was up them to follow that or not.

Neither Adam or Eve knew of evil at the time, as they where, as you say , in a sinless state, and had not yet had knowledge of good and evil……

 

(sarcasm)

So good of God to send you to explain all the things God forgot to include when Genesis was originally written.  God was so forgetful back then.  

(/sarcasm)

 

 

 

Satan’s introduction line was “Did God really say…?” he was trying to make Eve believe that god was a liar. That’s when Eve mentions about touching the fruit in her response. God never said that, but she was starting to have doubt put in her mind.

 

It doesn't actually say Satan.  You are reading into it what you want it to say rather that taking it for what it actually says. 

 

 

 

The answer is “YES”. Even Jesus, who was sinless perfection, had doubts. But he did not act on them. Eve doubted after being pressured by Satan, and then gave in.

Satan tried the exact same tactic with Jesus in the dessert, asking him “if you are really….”

 

Well Jesus was just as real as Eve.  It's easy to be sinless perfection when you are not real.

 

 

The cause of all sin was Satan, and Satan alone. Adam and eve must have been made perfect. Otherwise God has either made an error, or purposefully made them sinful. Neither of which are in anyway scriptural. He did however give them freedom of choice.

 

Because Satan created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?  Again you read into it what it doesn't say.  God created the situation.  The talking snake who does not crawl merely pointed out the truth.  You have to understand that the men who invented this myth didn't see God as good or honest.  God was there to make everybody obey the king and priests.

 

 

[Ravenstar]

 

Lucifer was not the author of evil. The satan was one of god's host who played a role in the heavenly court…he did god's bidding, haven't you read Job? What God did to Job was cruel and evil and narcissistic.

 

Well, to be honest, what Lucifer did in the book of Job wasn't entirely following Yahweh's instructions. He basically made a bet with Yahweh, saying, "If I do X to Job, he will do Y." Yahweh's response was, "Go ahead and do X, but instead, Z will happen." so Lucifer went ahead and did what he wanted to anyway.

 

Sure, what Yahweh did to Job was cruel as well. Though Job was supposed to be an obedient follower, Yahweh did nothing to stop Lucifer or to help Job out (you know that already of course, but it's a part of what I'm trying to say). Instead of sparing Job the pain and stopping the Satan, he stood by and watched and then gave Job a lecture when he asked, "Why? Why would you let this happen?" The fact that Lucifer and Yahweh were both cruel in this story and basically ganged up on Job doesn't necessarily mean they were on the same side, it simply means that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and they were having a competition.

 

Points taken  

 

it still points to humans as things to be played with and the beings above (heavens court… whatever) to be a bit different from the current thought… obviously the satan and yahweh were on speaking terms. (this is after the fall - yet the satan is in yahweh's presence… interesting)

[ironhorse]

Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

[Roz]

"It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem of pain and suffering."

That's what the christian posits.  Jury, do you agree?  What about the pain and suffering of say... his kids?

 

From his verses, he was given new kids.

"13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters."

 

And what happened to those sons and daughters he had before?

 

God gave the OK to have his original kids killed

 

Job 1

¹² The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

 

¹⁸ While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, ¹⁹ when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

[mymistake]

Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

 

 

Yeah it is okay that God killed Job's ten children just to win a bet because after it was over God made sure Job had ten new children.  Children are merely property and easily replaced.  It's not like anybody would emotionally invest in a child.

[Roz]

IH, while we're at it

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

Job has as intense a faith as Joshua, as Samuel.

Do I need to remind you what those warlords did in the name of the exact same god?

[ironhorse]

 

Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

 

 

Yeah it is okay that God killed Job's ten children just to win a bet because after it was over God made sure Job had ten new children.  Children are merely property and easily replaced.  It's not like anybody would emotionally invest in a child.

 

 

 

What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

(DDT had virtually wiped out Malaria by the early 70s

and then it was banned due to pressure by environmentalists)

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html

[Roz]

 

 

Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

 

 

Yeah it is okay that God killed Job's ten children just to win a bet because after it was over God made sure Job had ten new children.  Children are merely property and easily replaced.  It's not like anybody would emotionally invest in a child.

 

 

 

What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

(DDT had virtually wiped out Malaria by the early 70s

and then it was banned due to pressure by environmentalists)

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html

 

 

 

Satan replied. ¹⁰ “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. ¹¹ But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

¹² The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

 

If someone has the power to keep one safe, but then explicitly allows another to kill those in his protection, our human laws say that's "Conspiracy to commit murder"

 

You did not pull the trigger, but you conspired in their demise. 

[Roz]

And yes, we feel badly for those children, that's why we do what we can to help them.  I donate, do you?

 

Thanks for making yet another point IH.  Your god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.  The few hundreds of dollars I donate are nothing next to him.  Yet he does nothing to help them. 

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

Job is one of my favorite books in the Bible. It's the oldest scripture in the Bible and 

is worth reading more than a few times. It tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

 

Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.

~Job 13:15

 

Job's faith is amazing.

 

And the ending....

 

Epilogue 

 

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.

 

12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.

 

16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.

 

~Job 42 (New International Version)

 

 

Yeah it is okay that God killed Job's ten children just to win a bet because after it was over God made sure Job had ten new children.  Children are merely property and easily replaced.  It's not like anybody would emotionally invest in a child.

 

 

 

What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

(DDT had virtually wiped out Malaria by the early 70s

and then it was banned due to pressure by environmentalists)

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/summ02/DDT.html

 

 

 

Satan replied. ¹⁰ “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. ¹¹ But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

¹² The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

 

If someone has the power to keep one safe, but then explicitly allows another to kill those in his protection, our human laws say that's "Conspiracy to commit murder"

 

You did not pull the trigger, but you conspired in their demise. 

 

 

 

Two things:

 

First, it seems God is continually blamed here for all suffering and evil. The solution is that

God should not allow it or he should stop it. It's all God's fault. 

 

The reason I posted the statistics was to confront us with what we are allowing to happen.

Where is our outcry about children suffering and dying today? Is this all God's fault?

[Roz]

 

Two things:

 

First, it seems God is continually blamed here for all suffering and evil. The solution is that

God should not allow it or he should stop it. It's all God's fault. 

 

The reason I posted the statistics was to confront us with what we are allowing to happen.

Where is our outcry about children suffering and dying today? Is this all God's fault?

 

 

Twisting words again IH.  All that is implied in my reply is that god is clearly an accomplice to killing children.  Specific children.  Job's kids.

 

He gave permission to the one he knew would murder those children, to murder those children.  He's omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent according to you christians. 

 

While we're at it...

Do I need to re-quote the bible verse that says jesus and his dad are one?  So this implicates jesus as well to the murder of job's kids.

Do I really need to re-quote those verses about him ordering the killing of more kids?

 

IH, if you were a bodyguard for someone, and you explicitly say to a would be murderer "go ahead and shoot his kids, but don't shoot him"

You would be condemned at court and judged a criminal who was part of a conspiracy to commit murder.

[mymistake]

 

 

What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

 

Do you lack reading comprehension?  Everything that happened to Job happened with God's approval.

 

 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

I'm not an all knowing, all powerful being.  However if I were then I would save those lives.  That is because I am a better person that your imaginary God.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

What verse says God killed Job's children? 

 

 

Do you lack reading comprehension?  Everything that happened to Job happened with God's approval.

 

 

 

We don't seem to be concerned or in outrage about some children today.

 

-19,839,720 abortions worldwide so far this year

 

-3.1 million child deaths by hunger a year

 

-3,000 a day by Malaria in Africa

 

I'm not an all knowing, all powerful being.  However if I were then I would save those lives.  That is because I am a better person that your imaginary God.

 

 

 

So if you were all knowing, you would interact in this world and stop all evil? You would be a God who intervenes in

our daily lives?

[mymistake]

First, it seems God is continually blamed here for all suffering and evil. The solution is that

God should not allow it or he should stop it. It's all God's fault. 

 

 

This is known as the problem of evil.  It is not possible for an all knowing, all powerful and all good being to exist in our universe.  Clearly the Bible is wrong.

 

 

 

 

The reason I posted the statistics was to confront us with what we are allowing to happen.

Where is our outcry about children suffering and dying today? Is this all God's fault?

 

If God were real then yes it would be God's fault.  But since God is as imaginary as Luke Skywalker it can't really be God's fault.  Imaginary things have no real responsibility.

[sdelsolray]

...

[The Book of Job] tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

...

No it doesn't.  Not at all.  Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)".  Study hard.

[ironhorse]

 

...

[The Book of Job] tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

...

No it doesn't.  Not at all.  Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)".  Study hard.

 

 

"Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)"

 

Do you understand?

 

What your explanation for suffering and evil?

[Roz]

 

 

...

[The Book of Job] tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

...

No it doesn't.  Not at all.  Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)".  Study hard.

 

 

"Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)"

 

Do you understand?

 

What your explanation for suffering and evil?

 

 

Shifting the burden yet again, when christianity is the one that posits the claim that they have the understanding of the problem of evil in the first place.

 

RNP has demonstrated how the bible cites that the god did create evil.  Christians all over the world posit that their god is omni-everything.

 

Now, what would people do?  Besides being one of IH's go-to questions (which has been answered repeatedly) I will re-state what I will do.

 

I will not:

1.  order genocide

2.  institute slavery

3.  give license for raping virgin girls

 

These are just 3, but see?  Simple answer.  I will not be as immoral as the bible god, were I to have power.  Your book is the one who has your god ordering all 3 of these things. 

 

When pressed, you said you didn't have the answers.  How about asking your omniscient god to give his answers to you?  You can't do that, can you...

 

So you're left with what exactly?  Re-hashing old questions?  Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Christian MO.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

...

[The Book of Job] tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

...

No it doesn't.  Not at all.  Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)".  Study hard.

 

 

"Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)"

 

Do you understand?

 

What your explanation for suffering and evil?

 

Cute.  But before we get to whether I understand, let's see if you understand the Problem of Evil (Suffereing).  I challenged you first, and normal discourse requires you to respond with something more than avoiding the question and posing it upon me.  And, after all, you claim to be well read and have considered "opposing" viewpoints (whatever that means).  So it should be easy for you.  Simple as pie.

 

In your own words (no copy and pastes from your favored blogs or apologetic websites), please identify and define, completely, the "Problem of Evil (Suffereing)".

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

...

[The Book of Job] tackles, I think, realistically with the problem

of pain and suffering.

...

No it doesn't.  Not at all.  Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)".  Study hard.

 

 

"Apparently, you do not understand the "Problem of Evil (Suffering)"

 

Do you understand?

 

What your explanation for suffering and evil?

 

 

Shifting the burden yet again, when christianity is the one that posits the claim that they have the understanding of the problem of evil in the first place.

...

 

I called IH on this too.  Let's see what he does.  Bets?