Atheism And Depression

[moanareina]

Probably every two weeks I have a day or two where I can't get suicide off my mind. I would never commit suicide, but sometimes it seems like I wish I could. Life seems so pointless. Especially for an atheist. I cease to exist. Everybody who would be hurt ceases to exist eventually. Why not? When I'm in that mood, I would like to nuke the whole planet just to show how I feel about life. Usually if I skip exercising for a couple of days, I will start going down into one of these experiences.

 

So if I get you right it is a chore to get going every day but thanks to exercising and your job you got it under control except for one to two days every two weeks when it overwhelms you. Now I think that is pretty consistent and not just the common feeling down once in a while. And to the extend you have suicide on your mind even though you don't consider to act on it I think is something to take serious. Because the day might come when you get so overwhelmed that it might not just be a nice thought anymore and you do something out of an impulse. Most people who commit suicide do it out of an impulse. They just get so overwhelmed with their feelings they even forget they have a family to care for and friends etc.

 

But it is of course up to you to know if you can handle those days you feel down. I am scared of meds too but I have come to the conclusion that live is short and I want to get the most out of it. So when my feelings overwhelm me like they do recently I think I want to start with therapy and if necessary meds immediately. Unfortunately I have to wait for January but thats OK so I can give myself some time to think it all through. But as FreeThinkerNZ says, there are a lot of different meds on the market. I have a friend who is taking em for ten years now and she had to try different ones to find the one that works for her. Everyone is different and not every depression has the same cause. There are different neurotransmitters and mechanisms how they work or don't work. I know for me it would probably help to get some stimulants. Because coffee already does a good job the days I can take it and don't feel awkward physically from the acids in the coffee. Since you mention that you need your time to get started I assume that you too need something that is stimulating. But that is a doctors job to find out. And I think too that there are other options to consider as well if you really feel like you don't want meds.

 

You know, when I work early or middle shift my depression is almost nonexistent or lets say I don't note it because I have to get up for a reason, work. Then I work all day and when I get home I deserve some me time because I worked all day and I am able to allow myself to be lazy without feeling bad about it and tired because I worked all day...I think if I had a nine to five job I would not be aware of my depression and I would have some down days every two weeks like you. The reason I am aware of how I feel so much is that I work irregular shifts, mainly late and have my days off whenever. It is too much for me to self motivate me to get up early and do something with my time. Even though I knew what I could do and have plenty of ideas.

 

How is it when you are having a few days off? How do you feel then?

 

If it helps you to think about an afterlife and God etc. then you should go with what helps you. Just keep in mind that this can be quite a trap as well. Because you create an illusion that might not always work or that might go as far as going psychotic again. You know yourself best if you are prone to that.

 

It can feel pretty empty to think that there is nothing in the end. I know that feeling. At the same time it also helps to not put my life on hold and deal with my issues now. My grandfather used to constantly talk about heaven and how good it was there and that he wished Jesus came back already etc. He died at the age of 65 due to lung cancer and had two heart attacks before. He also was an alcoholic, not a violent one but he needed that stuff to be functional. To me his longing for the better life that supposedly awaits us when we die felt sad even when I was still a christian. Because it kept him from living. It was an expression of his sadness, of his disorder not taken care of. I think he could have been a better man. I think my dad could have had a better dad if he took care of his depression instead of taking solace in the afterlife and God. Also he could have helped me because I felt the same way and when I was a child and teen secretly hoped to get involved into a deadly accident so I could go to heaven and did not have to live this dreadful life. He could have shown me that there was a life here and now that was worth living. So this is my take on it. I think to find a reason to live without a need of a deity and another life after death, be it heaven, be it reincarnation, is fundamental. I am not there yet...I have to admit. But really...life is short and it is the only one we have for granted. Everything else is speculations.

 

And now this post already got longer then I intended...

I hope you had a good day!

[directionless]

 

When I tried antidepressants they made me feel terrible, so I'm afraid to try them again.

 

This is understandable, but there are many different types of meds available now and it would be a shame to write them all off based on one experience of a med that might have been completely different to other options.  Which med was it, and how long did you take it for?  What were the negative side effects?  

 

The fact that exercise helps your mood suggests your brain responds to chemical changes, so it is logical that it may also respond positively to meds, as long as you can find the right ones, and take it/them for long enough to get past side effects and into positive effects.

 

It's also possible to see a psychiatrist and get an accurate diagnosis, which can be very helpful even if you don't try meds.  A good psychiatrist will also be able to offer a range of treatment options that don't involve meds, if that's what you prefer.

 

Thanks. The worst thing about the antidepressants was that they prevented exercise from making me feel better. Normally after about an hour on my exercise bike I can feel a switch flip as the "runner's high" or whatever starts to give me relief. When I was taking antidepressants nothing would happen. There were other nasty side effects like a constant odor, food tasted nasty, and I gained a little weight. I was taking three antidepressants at the same time (Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and ???) for at least 3 months, and I didn't notice any improvement in my mood. So I quit taking them and after a few weeks I found that exercise started "working" like normal to improve my mood.

 

So I have a suspicion that my problem is not seratonin, and all the antidepressants affect seratonin. I found some articles on PEA (phenylethylamine).

 

To summarize my impression as a layman:

- PEA may be the main chemical associated with the "runner's high"

- PEA is the chemical in chocolate and is associated with love

- many antidepressants cause reduced libido and inhibit orgasm (maybe they inhibit PEA?)

- PEA gives instant relief for depression just like I experience

- a pharmacology student found that combining PEA with a MAOI softened and extended the high from PEA (maybe that's why antidepressant seemed to inhibit it for me?)

- why don't they prescribe PEA for depression when it apparently provides instantaneous relief? Apparently it is addictive just like an amphetamine?

 

One mystery is that in the year or two after the short psychotic episode, I was not exercising. I was trying to follow the fasting rules and it seemed too much to exercise too. This whole period in my life seems sombre, but I don't remember being depressed. I wasn't happy either though. So apparently I can function without exercise. I think fasting and the religious beliefs made this work (not that is was a happy period in my life though)

 

(Sorry one more edit) Wellbutrin is less likely to cause sexual side effects than other antidepressants. I have wondered about trying Wellbutrin alone to see if it interferes with the "runner's high". Unfortunately there were some lawsuits and apparently they don't prescribe Wellbutrin for depression anymore. (maybe I'm wrong though)

 

Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9081552

 

 

 

 

 

The substance is phenylethylamine, or PEA, a natural stimulant produced by the body. It is related to amphetamines but does not have the long-lasting effects that make "speed" or "ice" such deadly drugs.

 

Now a British research team reports early findings suggesting that moderate exercise increases PEA levels for most people. They argue that this increase causes the euphoric mood often called "runners' high." And because depressed people tend to have low PEA levels, the researchers say there now is an explanation of why exercise has a natural antidepressant action.

...

"What we have seen is that PEA metabolism is reduced in people who are depressed," Sabelli tells WebMD. "If you give PEA to people with depression, about 60% show an immediate recovery -- very fast, a matter of half an hour."

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20010927/is-runners-high-cure-for-depression

 

 

 

 

 

PEA is the same compound found in chocolate that is believed to produce chocolate’s positive effects on mood. The phenylethylamine in chocolate is believed to work by making the brain release b endorphin, an opioid peptide which is the driving force behind its pleasurable effects.

http://www.nleducation.co.uk/resources/reviews/pea-a-natural-antidepressant/

 

 

 

 

 

I literally am a recoverying PEA addict. I combined it with deprenyl, a MAOI-B inhibitor (Monoamine Oxidase-B degrades certain amines, one of which is PEA. It renders it essentially useless, inactive, and without effect when PEA is ingested). Early on during my first bout of addiction, it provided an intense euphoric high and made researching (and almost anything) more interesting and pleasurable. Even with deprenyl, though, the high would last only 1-2 hours and you would have to continue to dose and often still go through crashes of anxiety, rage, and depression.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f11/i-am-a-recovering-phenylethylamine-pea-addict-anyone-else-out-91376/

[directionless]

So if I get you right it is a chore to get going every day but thanks to exercising and your job you got it under control except for one to two days every two weeks when it overwhelms you. Now I think that is pretty consistent and not just the common feeling down once in a while. And to the extend you have suicide on your mind even though you don't consider to act on it I think is something to take serious. Because the day might come when you get so overwhelmed that it might not just be a nice thought anymore and you do something out of an impulse. Most people who commit suicide do it out of an impulse. They just get so overwhelmed with their feelings they even forget they have a family to care for and friends etc.

That's right. But I don't know how my problems compare with others. Maybe everybody else feels just as bad or worse, but they are more mature about it and don't complain.

 

Your observation on suicide is very true. I read an article about people who survived suicide attempts. They said they were in a euphoric state of mind where they weren't thinking about consequences. I used to fantasize and visualize and analyze different methods of suicide, but I don't do that anymore. Now I just tell myself: I'm middle aged, I'm never going to commit suicide, so stop thinking about it. Some people actually do it, so it isn't good to fantasize about IMO.

 

But it is of course up to you to know if you can handle those days you feel down. I am scared of meds too but I have come to the conclusion that live is short and I want to get the most out of it. So when my feelings overwhelm me like they do recently I think I want to start with therapy and if necessary meds immediately. Unfortunately I have to wait for January but thats OK so I can give myself some time to think it all through. But as FreeThinkerNZ says, there are a lot of different meds on the market. I have a friend who is taking em for ten years now and she had to try different ones to find the one that works for her. Everyone is different and not every depression has the same cause. There are different neurotransmitters and mechanisms how they work or don't work. I know for me it would probably help to get some stimulants. Because coffee already does a good job the days I can take it and don't feel awkward physically from the acids in the coffee. Since you mention that you need your time to get started I assume that you too need something that is stimulating. But that is a doctors job to find out. And I think too that there are other options to consider as well if you really feel like you don't want meds.

I like what you said ("live is short and I want to get the most out of it"). I hope you find some treatments that work. I have read that caffeine is bad for people with depression. I used to drink about a gallon of coffee every day in hopes that it would motivate me, but it didn't work too good. So I gave up coffee. Exercise used to help me get through the mornings, but I can't seem to make myself do that anymore. I have more energy in the evening to exercise.

 

You know, when I work early or middle shift my depression is almost nonexistent or lets say I don't note it because I have to get up for a reason, work. Then I work all day and when I get home I deserve some me time because I worked all day and I am able to allow myself to be lazy without feeling bad about it and tired because I worked all day...I think if I had a nine to five job I would not be aware of my depression and I would have some down days every two weeks like you. The reason I am aware of how I feel so much is that I work irregular shifts, mainly late and have my days off whenever. It is too much for me to self motivate me to get up early and do something with my time. Even though I knew what I could do and have plenty of ideas.

 

How is it when you are having a few days off? How do you feel then?

The changing shifts must be difficult. I'm lucky that I've never had to deal with that problem. To be honest, I dread anything that disrupts my schedule, because it's so hard to make myself exercise and that is the only thing that keeps me feeling normal. So a job with changing shifts would be hell. Hopefully in time they will give you a more stable schedule. I know I couldn't handle what you are handling.

 

I don't do too well on weekends. I never take days off, because I can never think of anything interesting to do. Usually I go for long walks on weekends to pass the time and make me too tired to care about what to do. I should work on weekends, because there is plenty that needs to be done and it's partly my business. So I feel guilty that I don't care enough to work as hard as I ought to. This job is not a good match for my personality.

 

If it helps you to think about an afterlife and God etc. then you should go with what helps you. Just keep in mind that this can be quite a trap as well. Because you create an illusion that might not always work or that might go as far as going psychotic again. You know yourself best if you are prone to that.

 

It can feel pretty empty to think that there is nothing in the end. I know that feeling. At the same time it also helps to not put my life on hold and deal with my issues now. My grandfather used to constantly talk about heaven and how good it was there and that he wished Jesus came back already etc. He died at the age of 65 due to lung cancer and had two heart attacks before. He also was an alcoholic, not a violent one but he needed that stuff to be functional. To me his longing for the better life that supposedly awaits us when we die felt sad even when I was still a christian. Because it kept him from living. It was an expression of his sadness, of his disorder not taken care of. I think he could have been a better man. I think my dad could have had a better dad if he took care of his depression instead of taking solace in the afterlife and God. Also he could have helped me because I felt the same way and when I was a child and teen secretly hoped to get involved into a deadly accident so I could go to heaven and did not have to live this dreadful life. He could have shown me that there was a life here and now that was worth living. So this is my take on it. I think to find a reason to live without a need of a deity and another life after death, be it heaven, be it reincarnation, is fundamental. I am not there yet...I have to admit. But really...life is short and it is the only one we have for granted. Everything else is speculations.

 

And now this post already got longer then I intended...

I hope you had a good day!

Thanks, so far it is an o.k day. That is interesting about your grandfather. I never thought of heaven as an escape, but I can see how it could be that way. Suicide fantasies are the same way. Like you can avoid dealing with real problems by fantasizing that you will escape them somehow. When I was little I remember often wanting to jump off high places or out of cars. One time I took a drug with friends, and everybody else was happy but it made me depressed and I wanted to jump off a balcony. Luckily a bouncer saw me when I started climbing onto the railing and told me to get down.

 

I hope you have good luck with the psychatrist appointment. It's a lot of work, but usually it helps a little bit. You seem very determined to make the best of your life, and that is good.

[directionless]

directionless,

 

Thanks for being open and sharing about your struggle with depression. I've also struggled with it at times in my life. I agree with others here that religion -- xianity -- can cause depression. But I also see your perspective about atheism seemingly removing all meaning from life. However as others have also pointed out, we still have meaning, just a different type of meaning, without god. May I suggest that you don't necessarily have to be atheist to be ex-Christian. I don't consider myself either a theist or an atheist, but I look for a third way. I tend toward a spiritual humanist view of reality, based on the essence of human nature. There is a forum on this site, "Ex-Christian Spirituality" for people who have left Christianity but are not atheists. You might check out the topics. If you find you something resonating with you, you can send a private message to one of the moderators and ask permission to post in the Spirituality forum.

 

+ Human

Spirituality is an interesting topic. I just don't get it. I felt the same way when I took trigonometry BTW, so I'm not saying spirituality is silly - I just don't get it. How can a person be an atheist and also spiritual? (most spiritual people don't believe a spiritual world exists - they just do these things for other reasons that I don't understand). Neo-pagans seem to fall into this category too. When I'm spiritual, it means I believe there are actual spirits or magic or whatever. Most people are more subtle I guess.

[directionless]

you don't have to wait for a god or anyone to paint the world a different color other than grey. That world is what YOU make of it and only you. You are in charge (and always have been in reality) for how you view the world and what "colors" you want to see it it. The change in views on your religion or what have you I am sure make it hard sometimes to see anything but grey. I promise there is a whole world of colors out there to experience and gather to yourself.

 

Why might I ask when you are less depressed does that help to make you believe that god might exist more? I am just curious of the motivation behind that feeling.

When I'm depressed all I can think about is "damn, I've got to live this miserable life for 20, 30, 40 more years and then die in a nursing home? I can't do this. There is no point to this..." If I think about God it is only to tell God how much I hate him.

 

Then it's like flipping a switch and everything looks different. "Hi, seagull ... Wow, look at the color of that dirt ... What an amazing flower ... I'm so lucky to have such a nice cat ..." So somewhere in there I might say "thank you, God". I'm not thanking God for improving my mood, but just thanking God for creating the world. With atheism who do I thank for creating the world? For some reason it is easier for me to believe in God when I feel happy. It's an emotional thing rather than a rational thing.

 

I have loads of experiences in life that are wonderful and crazy and seem to defy reality. Just because I don't always understand them does not mean they are hallucinations or magic. It could just mean I don't have all the answers and that in itself gives me a reason to find a meaning for them or at least a reason (generally scientific in my case) they happened or exist. Find a new meaning for them.

 

This is not an issue with being an atheist it is an issue with the conflict of the two ways you are seeing the world. Give it time and effort, seek new meanings and outlooks on those things that seem so grey and meaningless. Let them come from within. From within is always the place the best answers come from. That voice you hear when you are calm in your head is you, and you can live for you and not a god in just as colorful and meaninfull a way as with one. Believe in yourself.

 

By the way are you just depressed about religion or lack of or is it deeper and more clinical?

That sounds like good observations. It's hard for me, because I feel like I'm hard-wired to believe in God even though I recognize the rational arguments for atheism.

 

I think the depression is not about religion, but the loss of religion doesn't help.

[slave2six]

Hi Directionless - I think that one of the problems with religion is that it teaches people to look for "meaning" in everything. The reality is that what is meaningful is how we treat others, how others treat us, and whether or not we make an effort to take on our responsibilities (financial, personal, ecological, etc).

 

The deconversion process was extremely difficult for me. There was a lot of mental anguish until I resolved the whole issue in my own heart and mind. I don't know if this is relevant to your current state or not, but it's a thought.

 

Also, be aware that clinical depression is a real issue with real solutions. You should talk to a qualified practitioner about your particular case. Clinical depression cannot be solved through force of will. There is no shame in seeking help.

[directionless]

directionless, I sympathize with you very much. There is a sentence from page 449 of the 'big book' of alcoholics anonymous that states this:

• And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment.

The greatest frustrations I face are those in which I want to change certain things about life that I can't. I've had to learn which situations I can change and which ones I can't. It was raining last week when I wanted it to be sunny. I caught myself becoming so frustrated and then I asked myself that question....Can I change this? I knew I couldn't so I might as well change my attitude a little or I would remain miserable.

 

I cannot change a lot of things on this earth including the fact that I do not believe in a personal god anymore. Everyday, I must get up and make minute decisions on what I can change and what I can't. This helps me a lot in my own times of depression. I think sometimes, its really hard to accept some of the 'realities' of life...that is always my biggest struggle. When I start to accept a situation the way it is, I can relax a little and move on to something that does not frustrate me. I try to go concentrate on something that brings me a little pleasure in life. I try to live my life like this now and I go day by day.

 

Try hard to fit some pleasurable things into your day to off set any frustrations that you cannot change today. Once, I fully understood that you cannot change people and certain situations, I am able to breathe a little better. Go do something really nice for yourself today my friend.

 

New Serenity Prayer:

 

Self, grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference. 

 

Hug

 

That is very true. I often get upset of silly things that I can't control. Believe it or not, I get upset when the weather is nice, because I remember when I used to ride my bicycle on those days but for a variety of reason I can't seem to make myself do it now. So I get mad at myself for being lazy. I get mad at other people if they seem to be enjoying the weather.

 

I could go on and on about all the stupid things beyond my control that I have trouble accepting.

[directionless]

And @directionless, can really sympathize, my own family struggles with this a lot. I hope you find peace with it.

thanks.

 

 

I occasionally deal with depression as well. When I realized I was an atheist the depression did seem to kind of swell up. However I think it is getting better. It is important for me to continue doing things I found meaningful as a christian. I have to remind myself that I still find things like exercise, music, art and friends meaningful because they actually ARE meaningful to ME. I have a tendency to "shut off" when I get depressed and recognizing that and deciding to get up and do something-even if it's just going for a walk in the park-is very helpful in preventing feelings of meaninglessness and helplessness.

 

 

The main thing that has been difficult for me is having friends. Almost all my friends are Christians and I only ever really saw them at church events. Now that I don't involve myself with church I often feel distanced and lonely. I'm learning to make more of an effort to connect with people. I'm also recognizing who actually cares about me.

The friend issue hasn't been as much problem for me, because I never had friends before or after. My church was mostly people I couldn't relate to - elderly, families, ... no other single people whose best friend is a cat.

 

I do feel bad, because I lost two old friends partially due to the psychotic episode. Both of them are atheists. I became irrationally suspicious about one of my friends, so I feel uncomfortable even talking through email (even now several years later). The other friend was turned-off by my crazy Christian enthusiam and he doesn't talk to me anymore. So now I have my cat and my family (all of them are Christians).

 

 

Sometimes I ask for assistance from my own personally created spirits to handle some imaginary issue causing me anxiety. Imaginary beings combating imaginary problems. Using illogic to quell illogic. Works for me.

That's an interesting approach. I assume you are a neo-Pagan but also an atheist? It is so hard for me to understand how that works, but apparently it does.

 

 

directionless: I wish I had the answer to depression. I have suffered from it for a long time. Medication has

helped me significantly. Although I still get depressed, it is so much less. Why don't you see a good psychiatrist and see if medication will help. It has helped a lot of people. bill

I definitely need to see a therapist again. Unfortunately, the psychosis is a big bugaboo now. The psychiatrists seem to jump on the psychosis problem even though it isn't actually a problem anymore. The real problems are more mundane ordinary things that make me frustrated and unhappy. I've wondered about not even telling the next therapist about the psychotic episode. But it seems like they should know. Also, so many psychiatrists prefer medication to talking. I've had bad luck in the past with antidepressants.

 

Dogmatic religion isn't all that there is to the idea of God and supernatural. Nor is the simple 'no'.

 

I, too, find joy in those thoughts (and many other things wishful), despite (or possibly because of) not having any idea of what there actually is, except me and my perceptions.

Hmmm... I have to think about that one.

[directionless]

Hi Directionless - I think that one of the problems with religion is that it teaches people to look for "meaning" in everything. The reality is that what is meaningful is how we treat others, how others treat us, and whether or not we make an effort to take on our responsibilities (financial, personal, ecological, etc).

 

The deconversion process was extremely difficult for me. There was a lot of mental anguish until I resolved the whole issue in my own heart and mind. I don't know if this is relevant to your current state or not, but it's a thought.

 

Also, be aware that clinical depression is a real issue with real solutions. You should talk to a qualified practitioner about your particular case. Clinical depression cannot be solved through force of will. There is no shame in seeking help.

I was browsing a website for an atheist church and there was a line "create meaning by making a difference".

 

I agree the deconversion process is hard. Partly I feel stupid for having been so dense while everybody around me was able to figure things out at a younger age.

 

I miss feeling a sense of purpose too.

[moanareina]

>That's right. But I don't know how my problems compare with others. Maybe everybody else feels just as bad or worse, but they are more mature about it and don't complain.

Your observation on suicide is very true. I read an article about people who survived suicide attempts. They said they were in a euphoric state of mind where they weren't thinking about consequences. I used to fantasize and visualize and analyze different methods of suicide, but I don't do that anymore. Now I just tell myself: I'm middle aged, I'm never going to commit suicide, so stop thinking about it. Some people actually do it, so it isn't good to fantasize about IMO.<

 

There is no need to compare with others. Many people suffer depression and are not brave enough to see a professional and many people have unresolved issues they don't take care of for whatever reasons. Now in your case it is you who is important. Do you want to continue the way you live, are you happy? If so I say great. But somehow I have the feeling you are not that happy. If I got that wrong I apologize.

 

>The changing shifts must be difficult. I'm lucky that I've never had to deal with that problem. To be honest, I dread anything that disrupts my schedule, because it's so hard to make myself exercise and that is the only thing that keeps me feeling normal. So a job with changing shifts would be hell. Hopefully in time they will give you a more stable schedule. I know I couldn't handle what you are handling.<

 

No they are not difficult at all, I can actually chose my shifts. But I am not an early bird that is why I chose late shifts more than early. But I chose early shifts once in a while because I like the changes. My point I wanted to share was that you probably just don't suffer that much because you have a regular job that gives you a sense of satisfaction and structures your day and week. While I have a job that gives me plenty of time to spend with myself and that is when depression hits hard. Like you are saying with your weekends.

 

>I don't do too well on weekends. I never take days off, because I can never think of anything interesting to do. Usually I go for long walks on weekends to pass the time and make me too tired to care about what to do. I should work on weekends, because there is plenty that needs to be done and it's partly my business. So I feel guilty that I don't care enough to work as hard as I ought to. This job is not a good match for my personality.<

 

That is exactly why I think it is important for you to take care of your life. I have those days too when I cant think of anything interesting to do. And I feel bad then because I know there are plenty of interesting things to do...which tells me: My not knowing of anything interesting to do is not the problem and from what you write I think it is not the problem for you either. If I knew something interesting to do I would still not enjoy it and I think for you that might be the case as well.

 

I am sorry if I am wrong. Now to me it looks like you are trivializing your situation.

 

To the meds. You mention having done research on serotonin and medications that influence that neurotransmitter. Now serotonin is not the only hormone responsible for our moods. There is dopamin, oxitocin, etc. and if serotonin did not help you it just might not have been the right one.

You write about being a middle aged woman. Maybe you also have some imbalances due to menopause? Just a thought.

I knew a girl once who had suicidal thoughts every month and it turned out she had severe PMS and it helped her to take birth control pills.

But again, that is a doctors job to find out and diagnose.

 

You deserve to be happy, to have a life that feels meaningful. If life feels grey and colorless then it has to do with your brain and nervous system and not because you are not trying hard enough or lack a religion. I think through therapy you can give your brain and nervous system new positive inputs and if needed medication helps too. That way you can find new meaning and fun stuff to do. You are worth to take care of yourself.

 

Big hugs, especially for the weekend

There is a lot you can do on a weekend. Maybe you can find a meet-up group in your area that does interesting stuff. Or just going for walks so you don't have to do them alone. Just an idea.

[SpaceWrangler]

I understand what you feel. I turned to anti depressants. I go back and forth what seems like every minute in fear and anxiety about it.

 

Have you thot that there may indeed be a higher power or consciousness? Maybe you are part of that power on a journey? I still can't get over the wonder of our planet and universe. Life, symbiotic relationship of plant and animal, gravity and other forces, our position to the sun and moon. I am leaning more toward multiverses and existences these days and perhaps reincarnation.

 

I try to remember a god does not have to be the angry MALE bible god written in mans image.

[ContraBardus]

I don't think that a God being makes any real sense.

 

Perhaps some sort of force like gravity. Something non sentient that contributes to existence. There isn't a need for an intelligence to be involved, be it primal or refined in nature. It's simply unnecessary.

 

Spiritualism, including souls doesn't make sense. I find the idea of reincarnation just as silly as the idea that there is an invisible sky man who sacrifices himself to punish the breaking of an arbitrary rule he created himself.

 

The stuff we're made of might become part of other organisms, but not in the sense most people think. In fact, you're not even made up of the same cells as when you were born. It's just a statistical inference, but the oldest cells in your body are probably only around 7-10 years old.

 

The idea of human permanence, spiritual or otherwise, just doesn't make sense. It's just vanity and the natural discomfort with the idea of death.

 

There is no good reason to believe we exist forever, that we pass through different dimensions or lives, or that there is any sort of continuous consciousness inside of us. The more we learn about the human condition and everything that goes with it, the less sense these superstitious and outdated ideas make.

 

I don't get why so many people are so afraid of the idea of life being finite and existence not being a permanent state in some way. You won't even notice you're not there anymore, so why worry about it?

 

This fear of consequences in an existence after death doesn't make better people. Someone is going to be an asshole regardless, and I've seen no evidence fear of hell or karma does anything about it one way or the other. If someone needs the threat of spiritual punishment hanging over their head to behave, they are a terrible person anyway and such threats would be ineffective.

 

God doesn't need to exist period. There is nothing in the Universe that makes more sense by claiming that a higher omnipotent and omnipresent being had something to do with it. Intelligence is not a requirement for any force in physics to function.

 

A God, even in the loosest sense of the term, is an unnecessary complication in the explanation of anything, and that includes the universe and existence.

[SpaceWrangler]

I don't think that a God being makes any real sense.

 

Perhaps some sort of force like gravity. Something non sentient that contributes to existence. There isn't a need for an intelligence to be involved, be it primal or refined in nature. It's simply unnecessary.

 

Spiritualism, including souls doesn't make sense. I find the idea of reincarnation just as silly as the idea that there is an invisible sky man who sacrifices himself to punish the breaking of an arbitrary rule he created himself.

 

The stuff we're made of might become part of other organisms, but not in the sense most people think. In fact, you're not even made up of the same cells as when you were born. It's just a statistical inference, but the oldest cells in your body are probably only around 7-10 years old.

 

The idea of human permanence, spiritual or otherwise, just doesn't make sense. It's just vanity and the natural discomfort with the idea of death.

 

There is no good reason to believe we exist forever, that we pass through different dimensions or lives, or that there is any sort of continuous consciousness inside of us. The more we learn about the human condition and everything that goes with it, the less sense these superstitious and outdated ideas make.

 

I don't get why so many people are so afraid of the idea of life being finite and existence not being a permanent state in some way. You won't even notice you're not there anymore, so why worry about it?

 

This fear of consequences in an existence after death doesn't make better people. Someone is going to be an asshole regardless, and I've seen no evidence fear of hell or karma does anything about it one way or the other. If someone needs the threat of spiritual punishment hanging over their head to behave, they are a terrible person anyway and such threats would be ineffective.

 

God doesn't need to exist period. There is nothing in the Universe that makes more sense by claiming that a higher omnipotent and omnipresent being had something to do with it. Intelligence is not a requirement for any force in physics to function.

 

A God, even in the loosest sense of the term, is an unnecessary complication in the explanation of anything, and that includes the universe and existence.

I agree that there doesn't have to be. Just another way of looking at things.

 

The main reason I fear no afterlife is because of the love I have for my family and friends. If there is nothing it obviously won't affect me then, but the fear comes in the event of death if I know it is approaching. I don't want to know that I may never see my children, wife, ect again.

 

Also for some odd reason...lately people who do believe in reincarnation and spirituality have been coming into my life. It's something I'm intrigued by.

[ContraBardus]

I agree that there doesn't have to be. Just another way of looking at things.

 

The main reason I fear no afterlife is because of the love I have for my family and friends. If there is nothing it obviously won't affect me then, but the fear comes in the event of death if I know it is approaching. I don't want to know that I may never see my children, wife, ect again.

 

Also for some odd reason...lately people who do believe in reincarnation and spirituality have been coming into my life. It's something I'm intrigued by.

 

 

I get that, but the curse of the skeptic is the realization that just because something sounds nice doesn't mean it's true.

 

Spiritual ideas like an afterlife or reincarnation don't make a lick of sense. Even if there is some sort of intelligent omnipresent super being those beliefs don't make sense. The idea of an afterlife is a simplistic attempt at behavioral control by organized religion. The idea that a cosmic being would bother with such minutia and cultivate such a system is rather naive. It's simple human arrogance to assume we'd attract that much of such a being's attention and concern. Besides the obvious over inflation of self importance, it begs the question of exactly what such a being would get out of it. Nice as it might sound, it makes no sense.

 

Besides, non-existence is better for loved ones than the probability that they might go to heaven in the event that one of the many organized religions is correct. The vast majority of humanity would end up in hell and the likelihood of picking the exact right faith to avoid it is very low. The odds are not in the favor of any deceased family in such an event. Even if there was an afterlife, it's pretty unlikely you'd actually meet a deceased family member when you did die, especially if we're reincarnated.

 

It's easier to accept once you realize that they don't care about being dead any more than you would. The idea of not seeing someone might be unpleasant to you personally, but that doesn't make it any more realistic an idea, or any healthier a belief. I don't thing delusion is a positive thing no matter how nice it makes someone feel in a moment. It's damaging and does more harm than good to delude one's self into silly sentimental beliefs for the sake of short term comfort. Not existing means not suffering at least.

 

It's wiser and healthier to assume that something that sounds too good to be true, such as an afterlife in paradise or the concept of reincarnation, probably isn't true. There's no reasonable benefit for such existence for any being that might create such a system, and no evidence there is any truth to such beliefs. A nice fantasy, but no reason to believe it's anything more than that.

 

Fantasy aside, the afterlife is one of those unanswerable questions that I file under "not worth worrying about". Too many unknown variables involved, all spiritual explanations are suspect, and I know more than most because I've been dead and revived twice and saw nothing that impressed me. At the very least it supported my 'you just stop existing' belief, because that's what it was like.

[SpaceWrangler]

 

 

I agree that there doesn't have to be. Just another way of looking at things.

 

The main reason I fear no afterlife is because of the love I have for my family and friends. If there is nothing it obviously won't affect me then, but the fear comes in the event of death if I know it is approaching. I don't want to know that I may never see my children, wife, ect again.

 

Also for some odd reason...lately people who do believe in reincarnation and spirituality have been coming into my life. It's something I'm intrigued by.

 

I get that, but the curse of the skeptic is the realization that just because something sounds nice doesn't mean it's true.

 

Spiritual ideas like an afterlife or reincarnation don't make a lick of sense. Even if there is some sort of intelligent omnipresent super being those beliefs don't make sense. The idea of an afterlife is a simplistic attempt at behavioral control by organized religion. The idea that a cosmic being would bother with such minutia and cultivate such a system is rather naive. It's simple human arrogance to assume we'd attract that much of such a being's attention and concern. Besides the obvious over inflation of self importance, it begs the question of exactly what such a being would get out of it. Nice as it might sound, it makes no sense.

 

Besides, non-existence is better for loved ones than the probability that they might go to heaven in the event that one of the many organized religions is correct. The vast majority of humanity would end up in hell and the likelihood of picking the exact right faith to avoid it is very low. The odds are not in the favor of any deceased family in such an event. Even if there was an afterlife, it's pretty unlikely you'd actually meet a deceased family member when you did die, especially if we're reincarnated.

 

It's easier to accept once you realize that they don't care about being dead any more than you would. The idea of not seeing someone might be unpleasant to you personally, but that doesn't make it any more realistic an idea, or any healthier a belief. I don't thing delusion is a positive thing no matter how nice it makes someone feel in a moment. It's damaging and does more harm than good to delude one's self into silly sentimental beliefs for the sake of short term comfort. Not existing means not suffering at least.

 

It's wiser and healthier to assume that something that sounds too good to be true, such as an afterlife in paradise or the concept of reincarnation, probably isn't true. There's no reasonable benefit for such existence for any being that might create such a system, and no evidence there is any truth to such beliefs. A nice fantasy, but no reason to believe it's anything more than that.

 

Fantasy aside, the afterlife is one of those unanswerable questions that I file under "not worth worrying about". Too many unknown variables involved, all spiritual explanations are suspect, and I know more than most because I've been dead and revived twice and saw nothing that impressed me. At the very least it supported my 'you just stop existing' belief, because that's what it was like.

It seems you have lumped me into a group believing in heaven and hell. I never stated that. I also never stated that there was only one omniscient being. I also never stated there was an afterlife. I merely suggested other possibilities to the original poster.

 

I am a skeptic. It is a curse. I question everything till it nearly drives me insane. That's why I am here. And it does bother me that I don't know.

[ContraBardus]

 

It seems you have lumped me into a group believing in heaven and hell. I never stated that. I also never stated that there was only one omniscient being. I also never stated there was an afterlife. I merely suggested other possibilities to the original poster.

 

I am a skeptic. It is a curse. I question everything till it nearly drives me insane. That's why I am here. And it does bother me that I don't know.

 

 

My point is that your suggested "possibilities" aren't really possibilities. They are extreme improbabilities at best, and most likely complete fantasy. Not even worth considering as factual to be honest.

 

That's one of the common mistakes many people make when discussing this sort of topic. They confuse improbabilities, which are technically possible but unlikely to the point that actual consideration is foolish, with possibilities that have some degree of likelihood and are valid considerations.

 

There is no actual evidence that suggests there is any sort of afterlife whatsoever, nor any real evidence that supports the existence of a soul or any kind of spirit being. Conjecture based on no evidence isn't really discussing possibilities, but is in fact simple hypothetical fantasy that sounds kind of nice. All too often I hear something along the lines of "I like the way that sounds, so that's what I believe" in relation to spiritual beliefs, and that's not really a rational basis for any belief and should never be considered a valid argument.

 

Nothing wrong with putting it out there, it's an open forum and all, but it should be seen for what it is and pointed out as such. Even in its vaguest and least religious form it is little more than wishful thinking supported by extremely suspect anecdotal evidence from mostly biased sources.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

When I tried antidepressants they made me feel terrible, so I'm afraid to try them again.

 

This is understandable, but there are many different types of meds available now and it would be a shame to write them all off based on one experience of a med that might have been completely different to other options.  Which med was it, and how long did you take it for?  What were the negative side effects?  

 

The fact that exercise helps your mood suggests your brain responds to chemical changes, so it is logical that it may also respond positively to meds, as long as you can find the right ones, and take it/them for long enough to get past side effects and into positive effects.

 

It's also possible to see a psychiatrist and get an accurate diagnosis, which can be very helpful even if you don't try meds.  A good psychiatrist will also be able to offer a range of treatment options that don't involve meds, if that's what you prefer.

 

Thanks. The worst thing about the antidepressants was that they prevented exercise from making me feel better. Normally after about an hour on my exercise bike I can feel a switch flip as the "runner's high" or whatever starts to give me relief. When I was taking antidepressants nothing would happen. There were other nasty side effects like a constant odor, food tasted nasty, and I gained a little weight. I was taking three antidepressants at the same time (Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and ???) for at least 3 months, and I didn't notice any improvement in my mood. So I quit taking them and after a few weeks I found that exercise started "working" like normal to improve my mood.

 

So I have a suspicion that my problem is not seratonin, and all the antidepressants affect seratonin. I found some articles on PEA (phenylethylamine).

 

To summarize my impression as a layman:

- PEA may be the main chemical associated with the "runner's high"

- PEA is the chemical in chocolate and is associated with love

- many antidepressants cause reduced libido and inhibit orgasm (maybe they inhibit PEA?)

- PEA gives instant relief for depression just like I experience

- a pharmacology student found that combining PEA with a MAOI softened and extended the high from PEA (maybe that's why antidepressant seemed to inhibit it for me?)

- why don't they prescribe PEA for depression when it apparently provides instantaneous relief? Apparently it is addictive just like an amphetamine?

 

One mystery is that in the year or two after the short psychotic episode, I was not exercising. I was trying to follow the fasting rules and it seemed too much to exercise too. This whole period in my life seems sombre, but I don't remember being depressed. I wasn't happy either though. So apparently I can function without exercise. I think fasting and the religious beliefs made this work (not that is was a happy period in my life though)

 

(Sorry one more edit) Wellbutrin is less likely to cause sexual side effects than other antidepressants. I have wondered about trying Wellbutrin alone to see if it interferes with the "runner's high". Unfortunately there were some lawsuits and apparently they don't prescribe Wellbutrin for depression anymore. (maybe I'm wrong though)

 

Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments. PEA improves mood as rapidly as amphetamine but does not produce tolerance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9081552

 

 

 

 

 

The substance is phenylethylamine, or PEA, a natural stimulant produced by the body. It is related to amphetamines but does not have the long-lasting effects that make "speed" or "ice" such deadly drugs.

 

Now a British research team reports early findings suggesting that moderate exercise increases PEA levels for most people. They argue that this increase causes the euphoric mood often called "runners' high." And because depressed people tend to have low PEA levels, the researchers say there now is an explanation of why exercise has a natural antidepressant action.

...

"What we have seen is that PEA metabolism is reduced in people who are depressed," Sabelli tells WebMD. "If you give PEA to people with depression, about 60% show an immediate recovery -- very fast, a matter of half an hour."

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20010927/is-runners-high-cure-for-depression

 

 

 

 

 

PEA is the same compound found in chocolate that is believed to produce chocolate’s positive effects on mood. The phenylethylamine in chocolate is believed to work by making the brain release b endorphin, an opioid peptide which is the driving force behind its pleasurable effects.

http://www.nleducation.co.uk/resources/reviews/pea-a-natural-antidepressant/

 

 

 

 

 

I literally am a recoverying PEA addict. I combined it with deprenyl, a MAOI-B inhibitor (Monoamine Oxidase-B degrades certain amines, one of which is PEA. It renders it essentially useless, inactive, and without effect when PEA is ingested). Early on during my first bout of addiction, it provided an intense euphoric high and made researching (and almost anything) more interesting and pleasurable. Even with deprenyl, though, the high would last only 1-2 hours and you would have to continue to dose and often still go through crashes of anxiety, rage, and depression.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f11/i-am-a-recovering-phenylethylamine-pea-addict-anyone-else-out-91376/

 

 

It is unusual to be on 3 antidepressants at once unless you have tried several and there is a particular reason for being on those 3, and I don't  think that was the case here, from what you've said.  Zoloft and Wellbutrin are not first-line options either together or alone.  There are other SSRIs that are more effective, which might mean you can take just one type of med, which is better in terms of side effects and risks.  

 

If SSRIs are not for you there are also SNRIs, TCAs, MAOIs, mood stabilisers, AAPs, fish oil, St John's Wort, magnesium, zinc, and light therapy that could be considered.  It would also be wise to have a full medical exam with blood tests to rule out physical causes, of which there can be many, such as hypothyroidism, vitamin/mineral deficiencies, autoimmune conditions and hormonal imbalances.

 

It's great that you do your own research and try to gather your own information but I recommend you see a psychiatrist for (a) diagnosis and ( treatment recommendations, because they are trained, qualified, licensed and experienced.

[directionless]

There is no need to compare with others. Many people suffer depression and are not brave enough to see a professional and many people have unresolved issues they don't take care of for whatever reasons. Now in your case it is you who is important. Do you want to continue the way you live, are you happy? If so I say great. But somehow I have the feeling you are not that happy. If I got that wrong I apologize.

Thanks, moanareina. The last two days I rode my exercise bike, so this morning I feel like I don't have any problems at all. I just need to ride my exercise bike every day, and I will be as mentally healthy as anybody else. I look back on earlier this week when I felt so worthless and depressed and wishing I could die and feeling like depression is a natural and permanent state for me - it is scary how my beliefs change so rapidly to such extremes that I each state seems crazy when I'm in the other state. Most people with depression are stuck for weeks or months, so they may not notice this as much as I do. For me it's usually just a few days fortunately.

 

My big worry is my knee and hip. I try to be gentle with them, but they hurt from even gentle exercise like walking. So maybe I can deal with this mood problem today by riding my exercise bike, but I worry about what will happen if my knee or hip wears out.

 

A few years ago when I was going to church I didn't exercise. I think believing that God had a mission of some kind for my life kept me from getting so extremely depressed. However, I never felt happy. Maybe that is the normal state for people, but I didn't like it.

 

No they are not difficult at all, I can actually chose my shifts. But I am not an early bird that is why I chose late shifts more than early. But I chose early shifts once in a while because I like the changes. My point I wanted to share was that you probably just don't suffer that much because you have a regular job that gives you a sense of satisfaction and structures your day and week. While I have a job that gives me plenty of time to spend with myself and that is when depression hits hard. Like you are saying with your weekends.

O.k. that makes sense. A few times I have tried working from home and it was surprising how quickly I became depressed without the structure of other people. I'm a loner, but I need other people to motivate me. I'm not sure if that's what you're describing in your case. I hate weekends even though I enjoy resting.

 

To the meds. You mention having done research on serotonin and medications that influence that neurotransmitter. Now serotonin is not the only hormone responsible for our moods. There is dopamin, oxitocin, etc. and if serotonin did not help you it just might not have been the right one.

 

You write about being a middle aged woman. Maybe you also have some imbalances due to menopause? Just a thought. I knew a girl once who had suicidal thoughts every month and it turned out she had severe PMS and it helped her to take birth control pills. But again, that is a doctors job to find out and diagnose.

 

You deserve to be happy, to have a life that feels meaningful. If life feels grey and colorless then it has to do with your brain and nervous system and not because you are not trying hard enough or lack a religion. I think through therapy you can give your brain and nervous system new positive inputs and if needed medication helps too. That way you can find new meaning and fun stuff to do. You are worth to take care of yourself.

 

Big hugs, especially for the weekend

There is a lot you can do on a weekend. Maybe you can find a meet-up group in your area that does interesting stuff. Or just going for walks so you don't have to do them alone. Just an idea.

Thanks, I forgot about the hormone issue you mentioned. I'm actually male instead of a female, but male hormones also decrease with age. I think my hormones have always been lower than normal males, because I've never felt as masculine. When I read your thread about not feeling comfortable as a female, I could relate my own experiences not feeling comfortable as a male. I don't want to be a female, and am more sexually attracted to females than men, but I don't feel quite like a normal male either. But I'm happy with how I am and wouldn't want to be different.

 

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

[directionless]

It is unusual to be on 3 antidepressants at once unless you have tried several and there is a particular reason for being on those 3, and I don't  think that was the case here, from what you've said.  Zoloft and Wellbutrin are not first-line options either together or alone.  There are other SSRIs that are more effective, which might mean you can take just one type of med, which is better in terms of side effects and risks.  

 

If SSRIs are not for you there are also SNRIs, TCAs, MAOIs, mood stabilisers, AAPs, fish oil, St John's Wort, magnesium, zinc, and light therapy that could be considered.  It would also be wise to have a full medical exam with blood tests to rule out physical causes, of which there can be many, such as hypothyroidism, vitamin/mineral deficiencies, autoimmune conditions and hormonal imbalances.

 

It's great that you do your own research and try to gather your own information but I recommend you see a psychiatrist for (a) diagnosis and ( treatment recommendations, because they are trained, qualified, licensed and experienced.

Thanks for that information. I have read that the US has very poor quality health care in spite of spending so much money on it. My sister is a family doctor and she agrees with some of my criticism of US healthcare. It is very focused on process, forms, malpractice liabilitiy, government regulations, ... There is no time left to actually listen to the patient and think creatively to find a solution for his/her individual circumstances. It's one-size-fits-all as far as treatment goes. Even the hospital gowns are one-size-fits-all. (My mother is short and she was complaining about how the hospital gowns were designed to fit the largest possible patient and didn't work for her at all.)

 

I agree in theory with your suggestions. I think New Zealand is less screwed-up than the US, so maybe you don't grasp how ridiculous it is in the US. You can go to the clinic and you get handed from person to person explaining the same things over and over again. They run whatever tests your insurance will cover and then at the end you realize that they were completely ignoring the problem that brought you to the clinic in the first place. I feel like a hotdog riding down an assembly line in the hotdog factory.

 

The psychiatrists are heavily biased towards drugs. And they insist on trial and error. So I dread the thought of spending a year to two trying various medications that make me feel even worse and possibly prevent the exercise from working.

 

Sorry to rant about this. I know you are giving the sensible advice. I hate to start down that path until my exercise solution is no longer working.

[moanareina]

 

Thanks, I forgot about the hormone issue you mentioned. I'm actually male instead of a female, but male hormones also decrease with age. I think my hormones have always been lower than normal males, because I've never felt as masculine. When I read your thread about not feeling comfortable as a female, I could relate my own experiences not feeling comfortable as a male. I don't want to be a female, and am more sexually attracted to females than men, but I don't feel quite like a normal male either. But I'm happy with how I am and wouldn't want to be different.

 

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

 

 

Oh...how could I miss that...sorry, not sure why I came up with thinking you where a woman...agh, now I feel bad!!!

 

And you know best what is good for you. I think exercising is great, I wish I had more willpower to do so. Maybe I should get a home-trainer...if I had a little more space in my flat...haha.

 

And depression has many faces...it is not just the being down for weeks etc. It can go in circles...in waves...in roller coasters...it can also be pretty stable and you are not really aware of it when you have enough distraction because you don't know anything else. I just think if in the down times you have thoughts about suicide you have to fight off it should not be taken lightly. There was a girl who attempted suicide but failed and lost her eyesight due to it. She wrote a book about how she found back into life by swimming, gave interviews and all...and then committed suicide again and made sure this time no one would save her.

 

Anyways, I hope you had a good weekend. Don't know if you like to take long walks, maybe you can get a camera and start to experiment with photography. For me that helps sometimes because I see all kinds of cool stuff when paying attention to the landscape. I can get lost in taking pictures and when I share them with others the reward comes by nice comments and all.

 

Have a good week

[directionless]

Oh...how could I miss that...sorry, not sure why I came up with thinking you where a woman...agh, now I feel bad!!!

 

And you know best what is good for you. I think exercising is great, I wish I had more willpower to do so. Maybe I should get a home-trainer...if I had a little more space in my flat...haha.

 

And depression has many faces...it is not just the being down for weeks etc. It can go in circles...in waves...in roller coasters...it can also be pretty stable and you are not really aware of it when you have enough distraction because you don't know anything else. I just think if in the down times you have thoughts about suicide you have to fight off it should not be taken lightly. There was a girl who attempted suicide but failed and lost her eyesight due to it. She wrote a book about how she found back into life by swimming, gave interviews and all...and then committed suicide again and made sure this time no one would save her.

 

Anyways, I hope you had a good weekend. Don't know if you like to take long walks, maybe you can get a camera and start to experiment with photography. For me that helps sometimes because I see all kinds of cool stuff when paying attention to the landscape. I can get lost in taking pictures and when I share them with others the reward comes by nice comments and all.

 

Have a good week

Thanks for more good ideas, and I hope you have a good week too.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

It is unusual to be on 3 antidepressants at once unless you have tried several and there is a particular reason for being on those 3, and I don't  think that was the case here, from what you've said.  Zoloft and Wellbutrin are not first-line options either together or alone.  There are other SSRIs that are more effective, which might mean you can take just one type of med, which is better in terms of side effects and risks.  

 

If SSRIs are not for you there are also SNRIs, TCAs, MAOIs, mood stabilisers, AAPs, fish oil, St John's Wort, magnesium, zinc, and light therapy that could be considered.  It would also be wise to have a full medical exam with blood tests to rule out physical causes, of which there can be many, such as hypothyroidism, vitamin/mineral deficiencies, autoimmune conditions and hormonal imbalances.

 

It's great that you do your own research and try to gather your own information but I recommend you see a psychiatrist for (a) diagnosis and ( treatment recommendations, because they are trained, qualified, licensed and experienced.

Thanks for that information. I have read that the US has very poor quality health care in spite of spending so much money on it. My sister is a family doctor and she agrees with some of my criticism of US healthcare. It is very focused on process, forms, malpractice liabilitiy, government regulations, ... There is no time left to actually listen to the patient and think creatively to find a solution for his/her individual circumstances. It's one-size-fits-all as far as treatment goes. Even the hospital gowns are one-size-fits-all. (My mother is short and she was complaining about how the hospital gowns were designed to fit the largest possible patient and didn't work for her at all.)

 

I agree in theory with your suggestions. I think New Zealand is less screwed-up than the US, so maybe you don't grasp how ridiculous it is in the US. You can go to the clinic and you get handed from person to person explaining the same things over and over again. They run whatever tests your insurance will cover and then at the end you realize that they were completely ignoring the problem that brought you to the clinic in the first place. I feel like a hotdog riding down an assembly line in the hotdog factory.

 

The psychiatrists are heavily biased towards drugs. And they insist on trial and error. So I dread the thought of spending a year to two trying various medications that make me feel even worse and possibly prevent the exercise from working.

 

Sorry to rant about this. I know you are giving the sensible advice. I hate to start down that path until my exercise solution is no longer working.

 

 

I am extremely well versed on the US medical system, thank you very much.

 

Seeing a doctor for a diagnosis doesn't mean you are committing to trying drugs.  Getting an accurate diagnosis is beneficial in itself.

 

I wish you all the best with depression and the other symptoms you have but if you don't want to see a doctor to look at your options then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can suggest.

[directionless]

I am extremely well versed on the US medical system, thank you very much.

 

Seeing a doctor for a diagnosis doesn't mean you are committing to trying drugs.  Getting an accurate diagnosis is beneficial in itself.

 

I wish you all the best with depression and the other symptoms you have but if you don't want to see a doctor to look at your options then I'm afraid there's nothing else I can suggest.

Thanks for your suggestions, and what you say is very true. I saw a news report about the poor psychiatric services in a west African country. Many people had PTSD and depression due to war but there were about 10 psychiatrists to serve the whole nation (if I remember the numbers correctly).

 

My dad agreed with me that the medical system is very aggravating, but he said we need to be persistent and work through the system until we get results. (He had cancer, so that gave him a lot of experience with the medical system.)

[moanareina]

I can understand your suspicions towards doctors and how the system works in the US. But then I had to go see a doctor on my travels in the US on two different journeys and it was not a bad experience. They actually did a good job. It was quite different then the doctor visits I know from my country. Just an example. I had to see a doctor in Portland Oregon because I took antibiotics in Guatemala and then when I got to the US I had problems with yeast invading my body. Not fun. So I went to that walk in clinic and the doctor asked me why I was there and then took a look into my mouth...then did a smear test to see if it really was yeast in my throat. They also took blood and I had to bring them a stool sample to send to the lab. I felt taken care of. The test gave the results for proper prescription of meds and so I was able to treat myself and get well again.

As I came back home I still worried if I really was well because I still felt a little weak and my tongue still was a little white and so I went to see my doctor and all he did was take a look into my mouth and tell me I was fine and he wanted to see me in two weeks again. No smear test or anything.

 

I guess it takes a little effort to find a doctor who understands your needs but also you have more resources in the US then anywhere else. There is more research going on and more experiments that help to find new medications and new ways of treating people. There is more innovation and trying new things. That is the upside of your system and the size of your country.

[directionless]

I can understand your suspicions towards doctors and how the system works in the US. But then I had to go see a doctor on my travels in the US on two different journeys and it was not a bad experience. They actually did a good job. It was quite different then the doctor visits I know from my country. Just an example. I had to see a doctor in Portland Oregon because I took antibiotics in Guatemala and then when I got to the US I had problems with yeast invading my body. Not fun. So I went to that walk in clinic and the doctor asked me why I was there and then took a look into my mouth...then did a smear test to see if it really was yeast in my throat. They also took blood and I had to bring them a stool sample to send to the lab. I felt taken care of. The test gave the results for proper prescription of meds and so I was able to treat myself and get well again.

As I came back home I still worried if I really was well because I still felt a little weak and my tongue still was a little white and so I went to see my doctor and all he did was take a look into my mouth and tell me I was fine and he wanted to see me in two weeks again. No smear test or anything.

 

I guess it takes a little effort to find a doctor who understands your needs but also you have more resources in the US then anywhere else. There is more research going on and more experiments that help to find new medications and new ways of treating people. There is more innovation and trying new things. That is the upside of your system and the size of your country.

I'm glad you've been able to get good treatment in the US. That yeast problem sounds bad.

 

I don't know how the US medical system compares to other nations. I know some people from foreign countries come here for cancer treatment. So there are some things the US must do well.

 

All I can really talk about it my personal experiences and what I've heard from friends. In my case, I rarely go to the doctor, because it never seems to accomplish anything and I always feel that the doctors are annoyed that I wasted their time.

 

A year ago I was concerned because I would often get sharp pains in my chest while I was riding my exercise bike and then after the workout I would feel dizzy, headache, motion sick, and sunlight bothered me. The chest pains didn't bother me as much as the headache after the workout. So when I went to the doctor and filled-out the questionaire I mentioned my history of depression. Everybody started hassling me about why I don't take antidepressants. My heart seemed to be o.k., so the doctor decided that my symptoms were all a result of depression. Shame on me for trying to exercise instead of taking antidepressants. "There's not much I can do for you if you don't take my advice... blah blah blah". Luckily another doctor came in and told me to ignore that other doctor and that it was good to exercise for depression. Then she talked with me and told me that my problem was probably due to drinking water instead of Gatorade. I took her advice and the problems went away.

 

So that is fairly typical of how it goes. It takes a long time and everybody treats me like a imbecile or a hypochondriac. Usually I feel foolish for going to the doctor and resolve to never go again. But I haven't had any horrible experiences. It's just a big system and little people with little problems can easily get lost in it.

 

My problem with psychiatrists is the way they always want me to take medications.