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Goodbye Jesus

Interactive Chart Of Bible Contradictions


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If you can't show that any religion is right.  And you can't show that your religion is any better than the thousands of other religions.  And you don't have a single shred of objective evidence.  And you religion relies on some book that was mostly written by anonymous men, is filled with nonsense, fantasy, contradictions and shows sigs of both heavy editing and plagiarism of other ancient religions.  

 

Then you don't get to pretend that you are being objective and questioning your religion when you cling to that religion you were brainwashed into as a child.

 

 

 

Be honest for a change.  It won't kill you.

 

 

I am honest.

 

There is nothing I could say to you that would convince you to believe anything.

We all make our choices.

 

I can't prove scientifically God exist. I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures. I can't prove Jesus rose

from the dead. I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

I have been honest about my faith and that I have searched all around

for the truth.

 

I have accepted by faith that Jesus of Nazareth was telling the truth.

 

 

You believe what you want to believe.

 

The rest of the people in this forum are not questioning that you believe what you believe.

They are, however, taking exception when you claim you're being objective and critical of what you believe.

 

IH:

I can't prove scientifically God exist.

I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures.

I can't prove Jesus rose from the dead.

I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

But...

I have accepted by faith that Jesus of Nazareth was telling the truth.

 

This is why MM and the others are saying you're a liar.  You lie about being objective about your beliefs. 

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If you can't show that any religion is right.  And you can't show that your religion is any better than the thousands of other religions.  And you don't have a single shred of objective evidence.  And you religion relies on some book that was mostly written by anonymous men, is filled with nonsense, fantasy, contradictions and shows sigs of both heavy editing and plagiarism of other ancient religions.  

 

Then you don't get to pretend that you are being objective and questioning your religion when you cling to that religion you were brainwashed into as a child.

 

 

 

Be honest for a change.  It won't kill you.

 

 

I am honest.

 

There is nothing I could say to you that would convince you to believe anything.

We all make our choices.

 

I can't prove scientifically God exist. I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures. I can't prove Jesus rose

from the dead. I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

I have been honest about my faith and that I have searched all around

for the truth.

 

I have accepted by faith that Jesus of Nazareth was telling the truth.

 

 

You believe what you want to believe.

 

The rest of the people in this forum are not questioning that you believe what you believe.

They are, however, taking exception when you claim you're being objective and critical of what you believe.

 

IH:

I can't prove scientifically God exist.

I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures.

I can't prove Jesus rose from the dead.

I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

But...

I have accepted by faith that Jesus of Nazareth was telling the truth.

 

This is why MM and the others are saying you're a liar.  You lie about being objective about your beliefs. 

 

 

 

Where did I say I was being objective about my beliefs?

Objective means observation of measurable facts.

 

I have stated that I have based my faith on many things I have read and studied.

Subjective based on my understanding.

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. 

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. 

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. 

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

 

 

IH:

I can't prove scientifically God exist.

I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures.

I can't prove Jesus rose from the dead.

I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

But IH, that's not being a skeptic at all!  Here's what a skeptic is like:

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

IH:

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

 

yelrotflmao.gif

 

ezhappydead.gif

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. 

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

 

 

IH:

I can't prove scientifically God exist.

I can't answer every question about the Bible.

I can't explain every so called contradiction in scriptures.

I can't prove Jesus rose from the dead.

I can't prove any of this with a concrete answer.

 

But IH, that's not being a skeptic at all!  Here's what a skeptic is like:

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

IH:

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

 

yelrotflmao.gif

 

ezhappydead.gif

 

 

 

That's me Roz.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree.

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Thanks for pointing exactly what a christian does in his attempt to defend his faith.  It amounted to absolutely nothing at all.

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If you can't show that any religion is right.  And you can't show that your religion is any better than the thousands of other religions.  And you don't have a single shred of objective evidence.  And you religion relies on some book that was mostly written by anonymous men, is filled with nonsense, fantasy, contradictions and shows sigs of both heavy editing and plagiarism of other ancient religions.  

 

Then you don't get to pretend that you are being objective and questioning your religion when you cling to that religion you were brainwashed into as a child.

 

 

 

Be honest for a change.  It won't kill you.

 

 

I am honest.

 

….

You have demonstrated otherwise, often.

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I guess we will agree to disagree.

 

 

 

That would be fine if you didn't pretend that you question your faith.  Just brag about how great your faith is and we can agree to disagree.  If you want you can say that if God told you the sky was green then you would believe your eyes are wrong.

 

The problem comes when you want to act like you are rational and you have questioned everything.  Your posts indicate that you don't even understand what questioning means.

 

So brag about your powerful, unstoppable faith.  It really is your strength and it is something you might as well be proud of.  

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I have tried to answer every question about the Christian faith.

 

Except for these:

 

1. Tell us all the things we missed out on when we had a "relationship" with christ. 

2. Explain to us how your "relationship" with christ allows you to overlook what are truly glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. 

 

3. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be the inspired word of god.

 

4. Tell us how your "relationship" with christ affects whether or not you believe the bible to be inerrant and infallible?

 

5. Please explain how your "relationship" with christ allows you to continue believing that the good book is TRUETM, when, by your own admission, it contradicts itself.

 

Your non-answer was simply a dodge, a coward's way out.  I want specific answers to these specific questions, TinPony.  Answer them here, on this thread.

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear. 

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

 

 

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

 

Glad you've clarified that your views are outgrowths of your leap of faith, Ironhorse.  Why anyone should be interested in your leaping I do not fathom.

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Ironhorse, here's why people are saying you are being disingenuous and even lying:

 

You've said in this thread that you never doubted or questioned the christian truth/faith.

 

But you have repeatedly said, here and elsewhere, that you are a skeptic, that you've explored other religions thoroughly, etc.

 

Those two things are in contradiction.

 

A skeptic routinely doubts even the things they think are true.

 

Someone who explores all religions to try to find what's true has to question even the religion they grew up with.

 

You can't have it both ways: either you have always believed and never doubted, or you've been skeptical and examined other religions with an open mind.

 

Which is it? And why should we believe your answer?

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And why should we care about Ironhorse's beliefs, leaps of faith, feelings, etc.???

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And why should we care about Ironhorse's beliefs, leaps of faith, feelings, etc.???

 

 

Because Ironhorse does.  We should all care about whatever he cares about.  That is why he is always posting his Sunday Dispatch.   Wendybanghead.gif

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IH:

I am a skeptic of everything I read, see or hear.

 

Concerning my faith: I became a Christian at the age of 12. My father was a Baptist minister and I was encourage by him and my mom to question everything...including my faith. I did.

 

 

http://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-skeptic/

 

A skeptic is a person who withholds judgment on beliefs, claims, and topics, until the relevant evidence is examined, regardless of previous beliefs etc. Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid.

"Only under a verification of said evidence will a claim etc. be considered valid."

 

I have done all of that and then I jumped into faith.

Then at that point you ceased to be a skeptic. Skepticism and faith, regarding the question of whether or not to accept a belief, are mutually exclusive positions. You cannot have both with respect to a particular belief. You cannot hold your Christian beliefs both on the basis of faith and skepticism. Not logically possible because they are mutually exclusive. Skeptics require evidence before belief. Faith is, by definition, belief without evidence.  If you think you found evidence, then faith is excluded.  That's why people are calling you dishonest, because you are trying to assert that you simultaneously hold your Christian beliefs on faith and that you also arrived at them by critically evaluating evidence.  These cannot both be true.  So, either you are lying or you misunderstand either or both of the terms faith and skepticism.  You should clarify which position you are taking.  If faith, then there is no evidence to argue and none of us are obliged to believe your claims.  If you think you have evidence, then drop the claim to faith and present your evidence. 

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Ironhorse,

 

This is really, really simple.

 

Are your beliefs objectively true for us, because you believe they are?

 

Y / N ?

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(Bump!)

 

Ironhorse,

 

This is really, really simple.

 

Are your beliefs objectively true for us, because you believe they are?

 

Y / N ?

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Thanks for the great resource, I hadn't seen it yet!

 

I realize you guys have a history with IH that influences your interactions, but I give him respect for at least being willing to take a beating for his beliefs and put himself out there. Most people I know (including me when I was a Christian) would never have attempted these types of conversations or been able to maintain them without resorting to name-calling. I think the fact that IH is still here and posting indicates that he really is interested in reconciling the cognitive dissonance that he has to be experiencing as a result of the interactions on the board.

 

IH,

 

Funny you should mention that your belief is based on your relationship with Jesus. I just happened to call into The Atheist Experience yesterday and talk to Matt Dillahunty and AronRa about encountering that same argument when I was interacting with someone about the Christian faith. Here's the link to the recording:

 

http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/AtheistExp-2014-07-20.mp3

 

My call is at about 10:30. I'd encourage you to listen to their response and see if any of it applies to you. The funny part is that AronRa also says "the devil is in the details", but he applies it much differently than you do.

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  • Super Moderator

Thanks for the great resource, I hadn't seen it yet!

 

I realize you guys have a history with IH that influences your interactions, but I give him respect for at least being willing to take a beating for his beliefs and put himself out there. Most people I know (including me when I was a Christian) would never have attempted these types of conversations or been able to maintain them without resorting to name-calling. I think the fact that IH is still here and posting indicates that he really is interested in reconciling the cognitive dissonance that he has to be experiencing as a result of the interactions on the board.

The internet did not exist for the majority of my life as a christian.  Back in those days, we had to do our proselytizing face-to-face, "like real men".  I don't give Ironhorse any credit for hiding behind a screen name and profile pic.  It doesn't take any courage, faith, or character to witness to the interwebs; but to walk up to a complete stranger on the street, like we did in the olden days, well, that took serious guts.

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Thanks for the great resource, I hadn't seen it yet!

 

I realize you guys have a history with IH that influences your interactions, but I give him respect for at least being willing to take a beating for his beliefs and put himself out there. Most people I know (including me when I was a Christian) would never have attempted these types of conversations or been able to maintain them without resorting to name-calling. I think the fact that IH is still here and posting indicates that he really is interested in reconciling the cognitive dissonance that he has to be experiencing as a result of the interactions on the board.

The internet did not exist for the majority of my life as a christian.  Back in those days, we had to do our proselytizing face-to-face, "like real men".  I don't give Ironhorse any credit for hiding behind a screen name and profile pic.  It doesn't take any courage, faith, or character to witness to the interwebs; but to walk up to a complete stranger on the street, like we did in the olden days, well, that took serious guts.

 

 

Ahhh yes.. I remember the wonderful days of proselytizing out in the community. They'd take a bus full of us teenagers and park the bus at a park, sending us out to preach. Most of us were scared shitless and didn't want to be doing it, but thought that if we didn't, we would be bad christians. Then everyone would gather back at the church and tell about the "amazing" things God had done. That was when everyone exaggerated their experience from a pimply, nervous teenager mumbling "Uhm, Jesus loves you and stuff" to an amazing conversion/healing that saved the life of the person.

 

In regards to IH, I simply wanted to point out that he's doing more than most Christians ever attempt, and has stuck around for the response, so that gives him some credit, at least in my book.

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Thanks for the great resource, I hadn't seen it yet!

 

I realize you guys have a history with IH that influences your interactions, but I give him respect for at least being willing to take a beating for his beliefs and put himself out there. Most people I know (including me when I was a Christian) would never have attempted these types of conversations or been able to maintain them without resorting to name-calling. I think the fact that IH is still here and posting indicates that he really is interested in reconciling the cognitive dissonance that he has to be experiencing as a result of the interactions on the board.

 

IH,

 

Funny you should mention that your belief is based on your relationship with Jesus. I just happened to call into The Atheist Experience yesterday and talk to Matt Dillahunty and AronRa about encountering that same argument when I was interacting with someone about the Christian faith. Here's the link to the recording:

 

http://www.atheist-experience.com/archive/AtheistExp-2014-07-20.mp3

 

My call is at about 10:30. I'd encourage you to listen to their response and see if any of it applies to you. The funny part is that AronRa also says "the devil is in the details", but he applies it much differently than you do.

Bfuddled,

 

Thanks for posting that link.  As Matt said, you pointed out the actual potential harm in people praying for your daughter's healing, the psychological harm.  That's the harm I suffered as child and teen when I was a christian.  When things didn't go the way I thought the bible said they should, or when my prayers weren't answered and something bad happened instead, I was left with feeling like I did something wrong, that God was not completely pleased with me (didn't have enough faith, read my bible enough, witness enough, pray enough, unconfessed sin, etc.).  I struggled with varying levels of self-uncertainty and low self esteem that I think might have been completely avoided were it not for my Christian beliefs.  As you know, you and I are in the same boat with believing spouses and the questions about how to raise our kids.  The rubber is meeting the road for you more so than me at this point, since I haven't had to deal with a situation like yours yet.  I think Matt gave some pretty good advice.  You can respect your husbands beliefs while still expressing your disapproval for the implications for your daughter when she isn't healed by prayer.  The other day, it was storming outside and my oldest son (5) prayed for God to make the storm go away.  At first, the lightning and rain let up a bit and he got excited and said, "It worked!"  Then the storm picked right back up and was as bad as the moment before he prayed, and stayed that way all night.  Once he realized that, he said to himself with disappointment, "God's not real."  I didn't say anything.  He still prays for things, but I think it's funny how it's obvious to children that prayer doesn't work.  I see in my own son the immediate tendency to rationalize why prayer doesn't work when he was taught that it is supposed to.  I feel for you and deeply hope it all goes well, and yes, that your daughter is cured.  I would say trust yourself.  You know your husband and daughter, and what approaches work best for communicating with them.  You obviously love them both dearly or you wouldn't be so concerned with how to handle the situation.  However you respond, let your love for them both be the primary motive.  You can't go wrong with that.  

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Bfuddled,

 

Thanks for posting that link.  As Matt said, you pointed out the actual potential harm in people praying for your daughter's healing, the psychological harm.  That's the harm I suffered as child and teen when I was a christian.  When things didn't go the way I thought the bible said they should, or when my prayers weren't answered and something bad happened instead, I was left with feeling like I did something wrong, that God was not completely pleased with me (didn't have enough faith, read my bible enough, witness enough, pray enough, unconfessed sin, etc.).  I struggled with varying levels of self-uncertainty and low self esteem that I think might have been completely avoided were it not for my Christian beliefs.  As you know, you and I are in the same boat with believing spouses and the questions about how to raise our kids.  The rubber is meeting the road for you more so than me at this point, since I haven't had to deal with a situation like yours yet.  I think Matt gave some pretty good advice.  You can respect your husbands beliefs while still expressing your disapproval for the implications for your daughter when she isn't healed by prayer.  The other day, it was storming outside and my oldest son (5) prayed for God to make the storm go away.  At first, the lightning and rain let up a bit and he got excited and said, "It worked!"  Then the storm picked right back up and was as bad as the moment before he prayed, and stayed that way all night.  Once he realized that, he said to himself with disappointment, "God's not real."  I didn't say anything.  He still prays for things, but I think it's funny how it's obvious to children that prayer doesn't work.  I see in my own son the immediate tendency to rationalize why prayer doesn't work when he was taught that it is supposed to.  I feel for you and deeply hope it all goes well, and yes, that your daughter is cured.  I would say trust yourself.  You know your husband and daughter, and what approaches work best for communicating with them.  You obviously love them both dearly or you wouldn't be so concerned with how to handle the situation.  However you respond, let your love for them both be the primary motive.  You can't go wrong with that.  

 

Yeah, I had the same experience as a kid. I prayed and prayed for my anxiety to go away and then was devestated when God didn't heal me. I thought the "thorn in the side" verse meant that God WANTED me to have it becuase I was supposed to learn from it. I think you're absolutely right that the self doubt and low self esteem is linked in a large part to Christian beliefs, and it sickens me.

 

Isn't it interesting how our kids are so much more perceptive than we give them credit for. I have had a couple conversations with my daughter about how I don't believe in hell (I didn't say I don't believe in God, yet), and she told me that she thought it sounded silly, too, so that made me feel better.

 

Thanks for the encouraging words. Sometimes I wish things were as black and white as Christianity makes them out to be, it would make situations like this much easier to deal with.

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