Schizophrenia And Genetics

[Guest end3]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/21/schizophrenia-genome-immune/12947505/

 

Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards.

[StillLooking]

No connection between schizophrenia (a disease) or epigenetic with sin.

[Storm]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/07/21/schizophrenia-genome-immune/12947505/

 

Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards.

There is just so much wrong with your line of thinking on this article that I cannot even begin to formulate a response. I feel for you end. Truly.

[Roz]

Sorry, this is just like having dark skin is a genetic predisposition.  

 

I have dark skin, that does not automatically link me to the Mormon teaching that my 'former life' did not fight against Lucifer and his angels like the white skinned people did.

[Guest end3]

Oh come on guys for the sake of discussion.... but I have to ask myself these type questions. Again, they were not saying smoking was a cause as they weren't sure of the role in the brain, but nonetheless. Don't fault me for considering the correlations, just please explain why you think my associations are invalid.

 

Just roughly.....smoking would be near sin if one abuses the body.....so it follows loosely in the research, smoking, sin, mental disease, are in a group.

 

Sincerely, why is it invalid to consider this line of thought?

 

Do not gay people say they had no choice?...as another example.

 

Heck, I even argued for homosexuality was a choice a few years back.... maybe I am changing my mind.

 

Even Paul said he did things he didn't wish he would do.

[Guest end3]

Heck, we "religiously" practice things to prevent disease.

 

So let me ask this, what is disease?

[Storm]

You just need to get away from "the fall" garbage. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. Its not because of "the fall".

 

I have a physical defect. I don't blame the fall. I don't blame anyone. I was dealt a sucky hand by life. So what. I make do the best I can everyday and try to be productive with my life.

 

Genetic maladies happen all the time. Its an unfortunate thing to happen to anyone, but to default back to poor logic and blame something that didn't happen is just irresponsible.

 

I used to think like you do in regards to things like this. But I now know that is not the case.

 

Life's a bitch sometimes.

 

 

[Guest end3]

You just need to get away from "the fall" garbage. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. Its not because of "the fall".

 

I have a physical defect. I don't blame the fall. I don't blame anyone. I was dealt a sucky hand by life. So what. I make do the best I can everyday and try to be productive with my life.

 

Genetic maladies happen all the time. Its an unfortunate thing to happen to anyone, but to default back to poor logic and blame something that didn't happen is just irresponsible.

 

I used to think like you do in regards to things like this. But I now know that is not the case.

 

Life's a bitch sometimes.

That's fine, but we are far removed from assigning cause. So much so, that what you just said about it "just happens" may be a result of something from the past...a behavior perhaps. And it appears science periodically stumbles on to a very few crumbs of the puzzle. So I shall keep questioning in my mind. And you're right, life has it moments....yea verily. Thx S.

[Roz]

"We religiously practice things (like good hygiene I assume) to prevent disease."

 

You're attempting to put a religious connotation to the word "religiously."  You're playing word games now.

 

Good hygiene practice does not in any way shape or form practice any sort of religion.

 

I practice good hygiene because it has been scientifically proven that microbes and bacteria cause maladies that can be prevented with brushing one's teeth and washing one's hands.  

There is no correlation between that and the worship of any god.

 

Like Storm, I feel sorry for you that you keep wanting to tie things to your particular god.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

"In some sense, it's already giving us clues to the biology of this disease that ultimately will be exploitable to understand what is going wrong in the brain and most importantly for very much needed new treatments," Hyman said.

This study has nothing to do with sin or predestination.  It has to do with biology.  This study simply reveals that there are (at least) 108 different genes associated with schizophrenia, some of which are suprizing and confusing.  This study aims as providing more avenues of treatment for those who suffer the disease as well as possible preventative measures for those at risk.

 

End3, science will never have anything to say on the subject of sin, hell, jesus, predestination/free will, demon possession, or any other religious matter because science is agnostic in its approach to observation.

 

Attempting to link a genetic study of schizophrenia to the "fall" is no different than attempting to link schizophrenia with demonic activity.  We know better, because science has taught us.

[Guest]

Let's just say End's presumption is correct though.  What does that say about a god that would create a human with a defect(s) that will doom them to hell without any fault or will of their own?  

 

End, why worship such a vile and disgusting entity?

[Storm]

 

You just need to get away from "the fall" garbage. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. Its not because of "the fall".

 

I have a physical defect. I don't blame the fall. I don't blame anyone. I was dealt a sucky hand by life. So what. I make do the best I can everyday and try to be productive with my life.

 

Genetic maladies happen all the time. Its an unfortunate thing to happen to anyone, but to default back to poor logic and blame something that didn't happen is just irresponsible.

 

I used to think like you do in regards to things like this. But I now know that is not the case.

 

Life's a bitch sometimes.

That's fine, but we are far removed from assigning cause. So much so, that what you just said about it "just happens" may be a result of something from the past...a behavior perhaps. And it appears science periodically stumbles on to a very few crumbs of the puzzle. So I shall keep questioning in my mind. And you're right, life has it moments....yea verily. Thx S.

 

While I am certainly in agreement that it is perfectly fine to look for a cause (as, obviously, the whole point of this thread stemmed from some scientists looking for a case for Schizophrenia being genetic), the fact that your default first line of questioning stems from a religious point of view. While not unexpected, you stated that the cause might have been from some behavior in the past.

 

While it is certainly plausible that that could be an option, having an understanding of mental illnesses and how they work would likely lead to a different line of questioning. I have known from my training and experience that if someone who has schizophrenia has children, there is a high probability that their kids will have it too.

 

The sucky thing about Schizophrenia is that its symptoms don't typically begin to manifest until a person's early 20's, which to me is cruel because it leads people to think that their life is going somewhere and then Bam! their life takes a drastic turn for the worse.

 

Having read many of your posts, I am not surprised by your line of reason regarding this. But knowing that you are viewing life through the filter of the bible just makes it appear that you just aren't trying hard to understand. Or maybe you really are. I don't know. But "the fall" never happened. Genesis is allegorical. The sins of the fathers being passed down to the fourth and fifth generations doesn't apply here. Jesus even said in one of his healings that no one sinned to cause the man to be born lame. He was simply lame to prove a point. This shows that not all issues are caused by "the fall" if you want to believe in "the fall".

 

Life isn't fair sometimes. Its a harsh reality, but it is actual reality. Unlike christianity, which tries to put some type of meaning behind many things that really don't need any meaning. Its fun to assign blame on something or someone so that we feel like there is order and cause for the universe, but the reality is that the universe isn't perfect. There is sometimes chaos. Sometimes luck. Every day is a new adventure because you never know what you might get.

 

Christianity thinks it has the answers. But I have found that it raises more questions than provides answers. And many of the "answers" it provides really don't align with reality. Its just what I have found in my year outside of the faith.

[Storm]

Let's just say End's presumption is correct though.  What does that say about a god that would create a human with a defect(s) that will doom them to hell without any fault or will of their own?  

 

End, why worship such a vile and disgusting entity?

God loves everybody, Marty. He would never throw them into hell.  Don't you read the bible? He didn't create them with these defects. Sin in the world created these defects. How can you not see this truth after having been in these fora for all this time?

You should go back and study the bible more and understand better. God will reveal the truth to you

 

(where's that sarcasm font when you need it?)

[bornagainathiest]

End3 wrote...

"Don't fault me for considering the correlations, just please explain why you think my associations are invalid."

 

Right now I can't say that your associations are valid or invalid, End.

 

Before I can make a considered judgement on their status, I need you to explain how your associations can be objectively tested.

 

THEN, I might be able to offer some constructive criticism.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[TheRedneckProfessor]

what is disease?

Definition of DISEASE

: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms, and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors : sickness, illness—called also morbus;

 

Taken from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/disease

[bornagainathiest]

End,

 

I know this is a bit of a side issue, but I'm curious, so please humor me. 

 

To your knowledge, is there anything in scripture about sin having physical effects on the human body?

 

(Anyone else know of any examples?)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

BAA, there's Romans 1:26-27, the anti-gay verses: "For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." The Greek of "in their own persons" is literally "in themselves." I've heard preachers relate this to AIDS, or to physical consequences generally, but the text doesn't specify "in the body."

[bfuddled]

But God has said that HE created evil...
 

 

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV)--"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

 

So even according to the Bible, all sickness is traceable back to GOD, not to man.

[BrotherJosh]

The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered

 

 

The authors have analyzed the religious figures Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and St. Paul from a behavioral, neurologic, and neuropsychiatric perspective to determine whether new insights can be achieved about the nature of their revelations. Analysis reveals that these individuals had experiences that resemble those now defined as psychotic symptoms, suggesting that their experiences may have been manifestations of primary or mood disorder-associated psychotic disorders. The rationale for this proposal is discussed in each case with a differential diagnosis. Limitations inherent to a retrospective diagnostic examination are assessed. Social models of psychopathology and group dynamics are proposed as explanations for how followers were attracted and new belief systems emerged and were perpetuated. The authors suggest a new DSM diagnostic subcategory as a way to distinguish this type of psychiatric presentation. These findings support the possibility that persons with primary and mood disorder-associated psychotic symptoms have had a monumental influence on the shaping of Western civilization. It is hoped that these findings will translate into increased compassion and understanding for persons living with mental illness.

 

https://areycorneja.wordpress.com/category/religion-and-theism/jesus-historicity/

[bornagainathiest]

BAA, there's Romans 1:26-27, the anti-gay verses: "For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." The Greek of "in their own persons" is literally "in themselves." I've heard preachers relate this to AIDS, or to physical consequences generally, but the text doesn't specify "in the body."

 

Thanks, Ficino.

 

I see the potential for interpretation, but that's not exactly a clear-cut example of a physical effect of sin on a person's body or mind, is it?

 

So what do you think about this line of scripture-based reasoning?

In Genesis 5, Adam lives to be 930 and Methuselah, 969.  In Genesis 10, Noah lives for 950 years.  By the next chapter we see Shem living to be 500 and then the lifespan of people seems to nosedive rapidly.  403, 430, 209, 207, 200, 119 and 205.  The last one being Terah, the father of Abram (Abraham).  Sarah lived to be 127 (Gen 23) , Abraham 175 and Ishmael 137 (Gen 25).  Isaac was 180 years old when he died (Gen 35).  Joseph was 110 (Gen 50).  In Deuteronomy 34, Moses dies at the age 120.  His successor, Joshua died aged 110 (Joshua 24) .

 

Now, I've heard it preached that the rapidly declining lifespans of the patriarchs was due to the corrupting influence of sin, accumulating in their bodies and being transmitted genetically down the generations.    

 

Your thoughts?

[♦ ficino ♦]

^ ^ ^ ^

 

Can't prove it false, so it must be true! Ka-ching!

 

This question seems like something some early church fathers might have debated, but I don't know of any examples.

[Guest end3]

 

But God has said that HE created evil...

 

 

 

 

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV)--"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

So even according to the Bible, all sickness is traceable back to GOD, not to man.

 

Amen, bfuddled!

 

This entire topic started off with the wrong premise, or ignoring the correct premise. And bfuddled just got us back on track.

Thank you, bfuddled

 

 

 

Human

 

If it's all true, I think it's a rather stark demonstration of how little we know. How little we know about the choices that are best for our mind and body.....and how routinely we violate those choices.

[Roz]

"If it's all true..."  is the same thing Muslims use to justify their 'scientific connections' with the Koran.

 

You're not required to believe really hard in your hypotheses in science, you're required to prove it with falsifiable testing.

[Guest end3]

"If it's all true..."  is the same thing Muslims use to justify their 'scientific connections' with the Koran.

 

You're not required to believe really hard in your hypotheses in science, you're required to prove it with falsifiable testing.

Can you not see that the more we know about behavior etc, combined with what research reveals that "my" hypotheses is in an infantile state?

 

The problem is you are forming a conclusion based on the same small amount of data.....or attempting to separate the two as totally independent from each other.....(Prof).

 

And another point....if it's true, as I said earlier, we are all so far removed from the original state that we are all in the same boat....i.e. love thy neighbor because you are fubarred as well.

[Roz]

"Just skimmed this, but one would speculate that we could make a case for loving everyone as we may be finding out that we may be predestined in some manner and even to "sin". Thinking this fits the fallen world/ original sin/ epigenetic research.....basically the whole nine yards. "

 

Prove.  Your.  Statement.  

 

And prove it scientifically.  Not just with your "oh look at this, i think it fits here!" bullshit.

 

You're as bad as Ken Ham and the Muslim website I put up.