amateur Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I have a question I've wondered about since I was a teenager and I have never heard any type of clarity on this, in fact no mention at all. So god chose the Jews to be the Chosen People. But then jesus was born, lived, died, and people who believe in his godship are xians who get to go to heaven when they die. And jesus was Jewish, but then I guess he was a xian too. The first hybrid? So my question is what happens to jews? What does it mean to be a chosen person if you end up getting sent to hell because you never believed in jesus? Do they get a free pass? Do they go somewhere that's more fun? Is it just "Chosen People" on earth (and that certainly hasn't worked out well historically, has it)? I mean, I figure that when we all die we just quit existing and it's all made up, BUT somebody in synagogues and churches must believe something else about this. The jews got the special seat with god for years, then jesus is born and the xians get the special seat. But nobody (god or jesus) ever pulls the "Chosen People" label off the jews. Is this just more biblical pretzel logic? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 He was their Joseph Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2014 My understanding is that the Hebrews were God's chosen people. One of those people of the tribe of Judah, Jesus, opened the door for Gentiles to reap the benefits of the chosen people, should they choose to do so. Jesus handed down some new rules that didn't negate the old impossible-to-keep Law but allowed anyone to be saved by grace. Jesus was a Jew since Christianity didn't exist during his lifetime. The worship of Jesus the Christ began after his death and became known as Christianity. Or so the story goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 ^^^^ Ooooooh! That kinda makes sense in a church-y sort of way! So Jews are the Chosen People, but xians get to reap the benefits of being the Chosen People by going through the jesus door. And the other jews don't get the benefits. I kinda get it and I'm kinda twisting my brain here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2014 So Jews are the Chosen People, but xians get to reap the benefits of being the Chosen People by going through the jesus door. And the other jews don't get the benefits. Again, my understanding; the Jews can observe the Law or take Door Number Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 23, 2014 I was taught something similar, but not exactly like, florduh mentions. The Jews were the Chosen People but they aren't any more. They were chosen by god to be blessed and prosperous (so long as they worshipped only him); and ultimately, god's chosen people would produce the long awaited Messiah. Since jesus came, though, the Jews are no longer god's chosen people; rather, all who call on the name of the lord, including the goyum, belong to god's Chosen People. That's why things like the holocaust and Palestine keep happening to the Jews: because they rejected christ as the Messiah, they forfeited their status as the Chosen Nation. So, according to the train of thought I was taught, yes, hell must be full of Jews as they do not look to jesus as their personal lord and savior. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 From what I remember of Catholic teaching, in the old days, they said that the Jews are just screwed as Christ killers. Vatican II had a whole decree on the Jews. I think it says that they retain their special position as God's covenanted people and implies that they can be saved (by Christ's atoning work, of course) if they're good Jews. I'm too lazy to go look it up, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 So ALL jews are chosen, but SOME jews are more chosen than others. This is like Animal Farm! OR the jews were the chosen people and were bff's with teenage-girl god and got to sit at teenage-girl god's lunch table, but when jesus showed up as the new girl in class, from LA and wearing the best clothes and to-die-for shoes, god dumped his original bff's and became bff's with the new girl and her cooler friends, who now sit at teenage-girl god's lunch table. This is like junior high school! They really should have clarified this in the bible. It would make for more interesting reading, like "Animal Farm" or any "Mean Girls"-type teenage-girl book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Considering the Jews are the Athiests Number one Goal to debunk Christianity I would say the Jews and their Monotheistic God makes most sense. I always felt that Jews would goto hell for 'Getting it wrong' but with the knowledge I have now I would say the Jews never really harmed people - Christians on the otherhand created the worlds biggest crimes against humanity. Even back in the days of Josephus - Jews were always seen as a breakaway group of their own. Growing up I never believed in Jesus even though I heard it in sunday school, To me it seemed futile to pray and worship to something that is not the Ultimate Creator God and rather a Demi-God. Heck even reading the stuff about Jesus and what he did in his Childhood makes me question him as a person and his morales. Lastly I do think that part of the OT is UFO/Alien - Call me a wierdo but alot of stuff said and themes are alien like, The book of Jasher has Enoch on a horse riding for 3 days in the sky and if memory serves Elijah also got taken the same way. Perhaps Abductions or that these people were infact Aliens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Well, Revelation states that the 144,000 will be from the 12 tribes, so I can only assume that Jews will be in heaven. If a Jew accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, does he continue to be a Jew or is he a Christian in God's eyes? and how does that not conflict with the serving other god's issue, since Jews don't believe in the trinity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 ^^I never got the "Jews for Jesus" either. They still identify as jews, but accept jesus. Are they hedging their bets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 First problem is that different groups of christians are going to give you different answers. Here's a few that I can remember: The Jews had their chance, but fucked it up. Christians are the new Jews, and all the promises that God made to the Jews are now for the Christians. Jews aren't an different than other non-Christians. That's called "Replacement Theology". The Jews are cursed for denying Jesus. That whole Christ-killer thing. Jesus was a Jew, so Christianity is a Jewish thing, so if the Jews really wanted to be Jewish then they'd be christian. That's the Messianic group; sometimes those of Jewish ancestry like to call themselves "Completed Jews". The Jews are still the chosen people, they're just too dumb to get that their Messiah has already come, but one day they'll all (well, all the ones alive on earth at the time) be saved. This is where a lot of modern US Fundy support for the nation of Israel comes from; God promised Abraham that "I will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you", therefore the economy of the USA is directly correlated with our foreign relations with that country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Here's what I was taught: Jews were the chosen people. Jesus was born and died a Jew. When the Jews rejected Jesus, they were the disobedient, hardheaded Chosen people. The end times disasters are meant to convince the Jews, and other unbelievers, to accept Jesus. Christianity was created by Paul, and that's when the Gentiles are invited to be Xtians. There are no Christians before Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 There was a huge fight (at least in the NT narrative) between Paul and the disciples over circumcision and what makes someone a "chosen one of God". I think this hints to early religious infighting between those who wanted to keep it inherently Jewish, or wanted the religion to become Hellenized and eventually Roman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 My understanding is that the Hebrews were God's chosen people. One of those people of the tribe of Judah, Jesus, opened the door for Gentiles to reap the benefits of the chosen people, should they choose to do so. Anyone could join the YHWH religion, it wasn't exclusive to ethnic Jews. Those who did were called "theosobeis" (god-fearers). A really dedicated few went the whole route and became circumcised proselytes, i.e. men whose authority was supposedly equal to that of the kohenim. According to Cassius Dio, people who converted to the religion called themselves Judaioi, regardless of their ethnicity. There were Egyptian, Syrian, Greek, and Italian Judaioi. This was going on hundreds of years before the supposed birth of the supposed savior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 9 postsPosted Today, 05:50 PM "Here's what I was taught: Jews were the chosen people. Jesus was born and died a Jew. When the Jews rejected Jesus, they were the disobedient, hardheaded Chosen people. The end times disasters are meant to convince the Jews, and other unbelievers, to accept Jesus. Christianity was created by Paul, and that's when the Gentiles are invited to be Xtians. There are no Christians before Paul" Orbit It is interesting to me that the OT, so far as I know, never said that acceptance by the Jews of the Messiah was a requirement in order for the Jews' Covenant with god to continue to be valid. Nor did it say that the identity of the messiah by the Jews would be any problem at all. This is evidence to me that the Jews being excluded from the Covenant in the NT was not foretold in the OT, but was a creation of the NT writers, If god wanted to foretell of the coming of the Messiah and that most Jews would be "hard of heart" and therefore not be able to identify him when he came He could easily have done so. But there was no suggestion of that in the OT, even though it was one of the most important events in the history of the Jews and the Xtians and altered the course of history of the world in major ways. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I have a question I've wondered about since I was a teenager and I have never heard any type of clarity on this, in fact no mention at all. So god chose the Jews to be the Chosen People. But then jesus was born, lived, died, and people who believe in his godship are xians who get to go to heaven when they die. And jesus was Jewish, but then I guess he was a xian too. The first hybrid? So my question is what happens to jews? What does it mean to be a chosen person if you end up getting sent to hell because you never believed in jesus? Do they get a free pass? Do they go somewhere that's more fun? Is it just "Chosen People" on earth (and that certainly hasn't worked out well historically, has it)? I mean, I figure that when we all die we just quit existing and it's all made up, BUT somebody in synagogues and churches must believe something else about this. The jews got the special seat with god for years, then jesus is born and the xians get the special seat. But nobody (god or jesus) ever pulls the "Chosen People" label off the jews. Is this just more biblical pretzel logic? Two religions, two groups of special members. Add a third religion, and you'll get a third group of chosen ones. What's the question again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 This is speculation, as I'm trying to recall (without re-studying it) the "logic" of the issue. I appreciate anyone offering further enlightenment. So, does this make sense? The Jews were the Chosen People to prepare the world to receive the Messiah. But they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Paul taught that this opened the way for the Gentiles to receive Jesus. Since the Jews blew their opportunity, it was given to the Gentiles. Israel is no longer the "chosen one." Messiah (Jesus Christ) is the Chosen One. And everyone who enters through Door Number Jesus becomes a chosen one. But what if the Jews had received Jesus and acknowledged him as Messiah? Would Christianity never have exited? Would everybody be required to convert to Judaism, in order to get to heaven? Jesus taught that he came to save the whole world. But he gave the Jews the first opportunity to be receive him and be his kingdom crew. Since they rejected him, the offer went to the Gentiles. If the Jews had received Jesus, it seems he would not have been crucified. So, did he have a backup plan for implementing salvation? Maybe his death wasn't really for salvation. Maybe his death was simply the inevitable result of him being rejected by the Jews. And in his death, Jesus fulfilled the Law and put an end to Judaism as the means to enter the kingdom of heaven. Now the only valid means of entering the kingdom of heaven is through faith in Jesus himself, because of his death. But if the Jews had received him, and he had lived, then the valid way into the kingdom of heaven would have been through his life, according to the Law, because in his life he fulfilled the Law. But when the Jews rejected him and had him crucified, Judaism became invalidated. Judaism was never a method to "enter the kingdom of ouranos." YHWH and his messengers are the sole occupants of ouranos. In Judaism, you go to Sheol when you die. According to the story, many Jews did accept Jesus as the messiah. It was only "the chief priests and scribes" who launched a conspiracy to have him executed. So even by its own logic, the story doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I understood it as Jews go downstairs and a very very small number of Christians go upstairs, as according to the Son, He is the only way and according to St Paul, there is no salvation to be found outside Jesus. Guess God decided to un-choose His chosen people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I understood it as Jews go downstairs and a very very small number of Christians go upstairs, as according to the Son, He is the only way and according to St Paul, there is no salvation to be found outside Jesus. Guess God decided to un-choose His chosen people Ooh, that reminds me of another weird thing I was taught. So, the Jews are the Bride of YHWH/God the Father, while gentile believers are the bride of Jesus/God the Son (but we're totaly monotheists, really!). At the end of revelation, after the current creation is destroyed, there's both the new earth and the new jerusalem. (Saved) Jews, both those before and after Jesus, live in the city of the New Jerusalem, while saved gentiles live on the New Earth. So, even in heaven, there'd be a separation of humans based on blood lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted July 24, 2014 Moderator Share Posted July 24, 2014 I once believed that all Jews by birth would eventually be saved because of God's one-way covenant with Abraham. God promised to save Abraham and eventually bless all nations through Abraham. Paul taught that followers of The Law would be justified or condemned based on The Law. Martin Luther, the reformer saw things differently, as did the Roman Catholic church at the time of the holocaust. Many Christians see them as condemned for rejecting the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts