I Think I'm Going Mad

[zuker12]

I don't know what to believe. I have a lot of conflicting information from multiple sources and I don't know what to do.

 

I've been reading up a lot on conspicary theories. Let's just say that many of them are unfounded. But, for example, the satanic ritual abuse thing there are seemingly a lot of testimonials regarding people sacrificing to Satan. No evidence found, no bodies, and nobody got arrested. It still seems out of place that there are so many testimonials. It may just be an attack on witchcraft and personally I have never heard of real cases of WIccans sacrificing to Satan. Just people purporting to doing that. Is mass hysteria such a powerful phenomenon that people start lying and believing in lies? Or is there really a witchcraft conspiracy to control the world? I think I may need some help with my critical thinking skills and various end-time prophecies and conspiracies.

 

Even reading up on "normal" things like evidence for the Bible, christianity, prophecies, I simply don't know what to believe. Was Jesus inspired by earlier saviour deities or not? DId the conquest of Joshua ever happen? Last time I read about it it did not. Were there religions before Judaism such as the Sumerian religion or were the hebrew texts just written late but had passed as oral tradition.

 

I think I really have two paths I can go now. Either, I become an atheist and live life like I used to (well I'm hoping to get away from this damn computer as soon as possible) or I become a crusading christian and live in conspiracyland. Problem is, I don't know what to believe. I may have spent too much damn time on the computer but summer vacation is oft boring and my OCD keeps me looking at religion.

 

I may need some help here. Regarding conspiracies, regarding evidence for christianity, everything.

 

Oh boy, this will be the most schizophrenic thread I ever made. When I was a crazy nutty believer and paranoid I spent time on a 2012 forum and I was on the verge of collapse. I feel a bit like the same now. Only I'm not really fazed and afraid when I read up on outlandish things.

[pratt]

zuker12,

 

sorry that you are having kinda anxiety over conspiracy theories,,,,,

biblical jesus is probably NOT real,,,,,,

wiccans sacrificing to satans? before you wanted to believe that, maybe you should check out what wiccans practice,,,,,,

 

my guiding principle in life now is

 

absence of evidence is a high possibility of evidence of absence,,,,,

[zuker12]

I know what wiccans practice. They don't sacrifice humans. BUt these reports are making me doubt even the slightest bit of information as "Illuminati propaganda". It's hard seeing what's real and what is not.

[dutchie]

Zuker, 

 

I can relate to the drowning information, and not knowing where to go. A lot of information conflict with each other. A lot of scolars in the field of theology debate about endlessly about a variety of subjects.  I have one youtube video, that gives me some peace. 

 

 

You can be a ex-christian without knowing everything about the history of christianity, the bible, archeology, evolution etc. 

[Ravenstar]

Step away from the computer… seriously. Information overload can play havoc. Spend some time in nature, exercising, with friends and family… get a hobby (something creative). SPEND LESS TIME ON THE COMPUTER.

 

 

Until you find your own way of weighing information  it can be dangerous to gather too much. Snopes is good for urban legends and conspiracy stuff, but ultimately you need to find a personal bullshit meter. Learning about logical fallacies is helpful, as i becoming somewhat conversant in science… because some conspiracy things are just really bad science.

 

Ask here, there is a wealth of information here and people who have done a lot of the research already - especially on history and religion. This is a fairly trustworthy place when it comes to those issues… science too.

 

If they (anyone, really) don't have citations from reputable scholars/sources…. you can pretty much write most info off as internet babbling. Learn about proper forms for evidence.

 

Take it easy…. fear will drive you mad, but I'm pretty sure the sun came up today, the grocery stores have food and the birds are singing. Doom and gloom scenarios frequently have little to do with what your SENSES will tell you. You are safe… enjoy life a little. Sometimes we need to switch off the brain and just live.

 

hugs!

[Deidre]

Sorry too that you're going through this, I think ravenstar's advice is really great. It's easy to become overwhelmed but if you just take every day as it comes, you will find your way through. Find the joy in the present. Set aside time to think about all of this, and when that time is up, move on from it mentally. It's important to deal with these feelings and thoughts, but just don't let them consume you.

 

We're here for you, if you need to vent anytime.

[moanareina]

The only satanic ritual I have heard of that sounded credible to me was performed by CHRISTIANS who went to Bolivia to translate bibles...and it was only for sexual reasons, no one got killed in a ritual murder, "just" abused. They abused various children while pretending to be good people and the parents of those children did not become aware of it due to their Christian induced neglect of their own (the God priority thing). I saw a documentary/interview of one of the brave victims who wrote down her story in a book because she wanted to go public with it. And guess what. It is the Wycliffe organization that has no interest in investigation etc. and who protects the suspects by not taking the victims serious.

 

I stay away from people who love conspiracy theories. There are some theories that sound quite appealing but then again why should I jump into something I have no real knowledge of. For example we have lots of people at work who love to talk about 9/11 and how has been an inside job etc. If it was or not...really, what makes the difference for my everyday life? The only thing those discussions do is entertaining people. I mean, they don't go and create a group who honestly want to investigate the whole thing. They just want to talk and are seeking an audience. And everyone who listens and gives in his two cents is welcome because it strokes their ego.

 

For me I have found that the one thing that matters most is my own happiness. When something gets me confused and feel the way you describe I just leave it because even if there was something to Christianity what was real I don't think it would make me feel that way. If there was a God I still hold on to him as being love. If I go crazy and all I consider this not to be love and therefore a lie.

So far I have found no more agony then I had when I was a Christian. I go through my regular episodes of depression as I did when I was a believer. Just that I don't think that satan is after me or whatever anymore. I can accept it as a result of chemical imbalances due to brain development influenced by trauma and neglect in my childhood and probably religious indoctrination.

 

One interesting thing I just have found is, the more I let go of the idea that there is some spiritual world or supernatural the better I feel. According to religion this would be the other way round...like the more you deny God and leave his path the more desperate you feel. And the believe that every human has this inner knowledge that there must be a God and they would feel this inner emptiness but just not admit it turns out to be the biggest BS ever.

 

Maybe it helps you if you give yourself a time frame in which you decide to not think of God or religion or spirituality AT ALL. If the bible was true, there is something in it that says, even if you go astray you will be saved. Because the good shepherd is looking for you...leaving the other 99 sheep alone to find the one that got lost.

So you are looking for the truth. One way of looking for truth is, to do experiments. This is an experiment and you can always go back to old believes when the test is failing.

[zuker12]

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6452

 

What do you think of these two passages? Authentic or not?

[Deidre]

...

[zuker12]

What do you think of this?

 

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html

 

Let's just say I could worship Satan if he didn't require human sacrifice and the killing of Christians.

 

GOd requires the killing of heretics too... It's all just a matter of choosing which violent side you want to pick...

[Deidre]

There is no Satan. There are no 'heretics.'

[RenaissanceWoman]

Ah yes, conspiracy theories. They're kinda fun, aren't they? When I first realized Christianity is bogus, I started to question if everything I know is bogus. So I got sucked into conspiracy sites for a while. Sucked in big time! Those people seem so genuine, and they seem to "know stuff", and they seem to have links and references for so many things. Gaaaahhh! It must be true. The whole world is upside-down from what I ever knew to be true!

 

Really, all they ever did was waste my time, especially when I would get sucked down rabbit holes chasing all kinds of juicy theories. But it did, over time, help my bullshit meter. Lesson learned.

 

Maybe something catastrophic will happen to the earth one day. Maybe the banks will crash. Maybe governments will war. Who knows. All I know is... the conspiracy nuts don't know. I still visit one site once in a while to see the latest craze for a laugh, and intermittently someone will put together a list of threads from the past 10 or so years showing all the times the sun was supposed to have exploded, all the times the earth was supposed to have been destroyed by some incoming deep space object (which NASA knew about but did not tell us, of course), all the times some government was supposed to do something truly big and evil. The point is -- even the conspiracy nuts make fun of conspiracy nuts.

 

So what if 9/11 was an inside job? Do you want to go through life with the thought hanging over your head that the entire government is evil and spying on you and about to strike you or others down? (OK, mistrusting the government is probably healthy on some level, but you know what I mean.) What can you do about it? Nothing, really. Sit online and whine and rant with a bunch of other frenzied believers? Nah. Move on.

 

And what of 2012? The new craze is to say the experts were off, and 2012 is actually next year, or the next year, or ... whatever. What...Ev... Er.

 

What if there was there more than one JFK shooter? So, the government lied to cover some rogue operation. Would this surprise anyone? Ummm, no. How does it affect your life today as you walk out to get your mail, drive to the grocery store, go to work? Yep, some people in government have mailicious goals. Some people in religious institutions have malicious goals. Some people in education institutions have malicious goals. Some people in (fill-in-the-blank)... ad nauseum. Where there are humans, there will be stupid stuff. Dwelling on it will make you paranoid. Seriously. Don't do that.

 

And what of the "conspiracy" Christians who don't save for the future because Jesus is going to show up "any day now"? I assume we have about 2000 years of people here and there who lived that way. Seems kinda silly in that perspective, doesn't it?

 

If it makes you feel better, store up a bit of food, water, and cash (silver, whatever) in case of emergency. (Tornadoes, hurricanes, blizzards, power outtages are real. Aliens de-cloaking tomorrow... not real.) Assume Jesus isn't coming soon, so plan for retirement. But also remember to live your life now. Have fun. Eat good food. Go on vacation. Buy a few things that bring you comfort and joy.

 

As for the Jesus myth... well, my opinion is that science and history trump all apologetics I've seen. Once you start to see the circular arguments in Christian apologetics, the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly. And yes, I realize that archaeologists and historians can interpret artifacts and ancient texts to support their theories about the precursors for the Jesus story -- but in my opinion, the Mithras/Horus similarities are pervasive enough to be evidence enough for me that Jesus is an amalgamation of previous religions for political reasons. That's just one tiny example.

 

You're never going to know everything there is to know. You're never going to read everything there is to read. The best you can do for now is find a good book or two referenced by the smart folks here -- just enough to cover the basics and ease your mind that deconverting is a logical avenue.

 

As for witchcraft... I'm an artist so I sometimes hang with circles of creative pagan / witch / nature types. I can tell you -- they don't believe in Satan (or God), so there is no need to sacrifice to or worship such entities. See what I mean? Can't worship something that does not exist for you. So maybe you did not mean the word "witchcraft" in its technical sense, but I know what you mean about the conspiracies of Illuminati or whoever who supposedly do such dastardly deeds. In this world, yes there are bad people who kidnap children and break into homes and kill people and steal cars and such -- so yes, it is wise as part of the human condition to take reasonable measures to protect ourselves from general bad guys. But to dwell on evil forces and organizations will not do much but add paranoia, fear, and possible depression to your soul.

 

Long story short... been there, done that. I know how you feel. It's overwhelming and it sucks! (Yes, it sucks the life and joy right out of you!) It will pass. Stop focusing on such things.

 

Maybe make a goal to stay away from conspiracy sites for 2 months or something. Then go back and see that they are still talking about the same stuff which never comes to pass.

 

Set a goal to read 1/4 or 1/2 of a recommended book about the fallacy of the Abrahaimic god/Jesus. Then take a break.

 

Take a break. This will pass. Your brain has been spun around and needs time to settle. You will get there.

[zuker12]

Well... now that I think about it, I see testimonies and theories about various organizations being evil or worshipping Satan, but I don't see any real links to nefarious activity. There is not even a supported general thread that the world is going to shit. I see no evidence for human sacrifice or criminal activity, only that rich and powerful people do stuff that rich and powerful people do. Like, being greedy for more money and power. There probably will be a global government at soḿe point, it's basically just an inevitability. What about that new government being heralded by Satan and magicians and new ageirs and other such people? Seems unlikely.

 

Still, all these testimonies about people coming out as malevolent Demon worshippers... Something seems strange. Granted, I know Mike Warnke, Michelle somethingsomething and John Todd are frauds. BUt there are more than that apparently.

 

My baseline hope is to be moral always. I don't think anyone can be judged by their allegiance. If they can be something is wrong. If someone does magic and worships Satan and has free sex but is otherwise the most reasonable human being on earth why throw him to hell. Seems like a major injustice to me especially in this fucking post-modernist world where I can't apparently know shit about shit. God hides, Illuminati hides and possibly creates anti-Christianity evidence (yeah something I coined up) and God lets this shit happen. Why? To test our faith it seems.

 

It isn't really that simple choosing a master. Jesus says his burden is light, but exercising thought control, giving up on medicine, giving up on sex, mutilating yourself and hating your parents and failure leads to eternal hellfire to us worthless imperfect beings is just plain wrong.

[directionless]

zuker, it seems like your whole problem is OCD. How do you normally deal with OCD when it flares up? If you can get the OCD under control then you will forget all about these worries IMO.

[Overcame Faith]

Everybody on earth must distinguish between that which is true and that which is not, including all the shades between the extremes. So how do we know the difference? Not an easy question to answer. Most forms of Christianity call on faith to accept the "truth" of the alleged underlying facts set forth in the Bible.

 

Fortunately, a different path was blazed beyond faith. It may be called the historical-critical method. Here is a link which gives an overview of it.

 

http://users.wfu.edu/horton/r102/hc-method.html

 

Something along these lines is helpful for all the conspiracy theories and other things that bother you so much. Always remember that especially online, people can and will say many things. The issue, though, is the credibility of what they say. Let's take a common example. There are those who claim there is much evidence of past or present life on Mars, including past intelligent life. However, these people say that NASA is covering it up and are deceiving us for various reasons.

 

Here is some critical thinking of this issue. Why would NASA coverup evidence of past or present life on Mars? If they had such evidence, their funding would be almost unlimited! NASA would be in funding heaven and we would be taking off for multiple human missions for Mars. But look at the reality of NASA today. For the first time in decades, the U.S. Is incapable of sending people into space. Rather, we are hitching rides with the Russians. Obvious conclusion: NASA is not nor would it coverup evidence of past or present life on Mars.

 

Do you see my point about critical thinking?

[zuker12]

What about the prophecies predicting Jesus? How truthful are they?

 

OF, I see your point about critical thinking.

 

I am still along the lines that there's not enough evidence to support Christianity or Judaism as a legitimate true religion. I'm just drowned in information from all sides and I can not decide what side to trust. The apologetists will go to any length to make their side seem good and/or plausible.

 

I can't believe some thinking that behind every bad decision is a demon, as some christians seem to posit. That seems just... off, to me. Then again, everyone of us might be drowned in demons and we just don't know.

 

I have no way of controlling OCD. It simply flares up and leaves me spending hours reading and feeling bad when I don't.

[Deidre]

What about the prophecies predicting Jesus? How truthful are they?

 

OF, I see your point about critical thinking.

 

I am still along the lines that there's not enough evidence to support Christianity or Judaism as a legitimate true religion. I'm just drowned in information from all sides and I can not decide what side to trust. The apologetists will go to any length to make their side seem good and/or plausible.

 

I can't believe some thinking that behind every bad decision is a demon, as some christians seem to posit. That seems just... off, to me. Then again, everyone of us might be drowned in demons and we just don't know.

 

I have no way of controlling OCD. It simply flares up and leaves me spending hours reading and feeling bad when I don't.

Do you believe there is 'one God?' The Christian 'version?' Or are you done with that, and getting confused over conspiracy type theories, etc?

[zuker12]

I subconsciously believe in the whole Satan and God premise. I can't help it. BUt it might be due to all these paranoid things I've been reading. I was heavily paranoid when I was a christian last time and constantly on guilt trips and feeling bad for the world.

 

I sort of forgot it for a while, when I became severely depressed and had to go to therapy. It happened VERY QUICKLY I was just crushed with the weight of the world and for my mental health's sake I had to forget. Now that I am reminded of this issue, it has prompted me to go back reading all these conspiracy theories. It has made many things I held self-evident after forgetting the whole christian thing seem conspicuous and deceptive. Or worthless. Or a million of other things I could link to them.

 

Only thing is, I no longer fear the conspiracies. They don't put me in a hysterical state of fear anymore. They just make my mind mush.

 

I think I need to be reminded why christianity is bogus. I have to say these conspiracy theories don't convince me but they certainly make me confused.

 

Could we do a sort of a recap on the main points why christianity is held to be true? The archaeology, the prophecies, the historicity of Jesus and other events in the BIble... What more can I think of. All I know is I have to review christianity and not any philosophical arguments for god. They are nonsense.

 

Also, why do conspiracy theorists write conspiracy theories? They get book sales out of them, but what about all those supposed testimonials by ex-illuminati and ex-satanists and what have you. What are their motivations? Not all of them write books or get famous for this "information".

 

I am waiting for the end of the world again.

[Deidre]

I see. That makes sense.

 

My only thought is, when you're ready to let go, you will. Until then, you won't.

[directionless]

Also, why do conspiracy theorists write conspiracy theories? They get book sales out of them, but what about all those supposed testimonials by ex-illuminati and ex-satanists and what have you. What are their motivations? Not all of them write books or get famous for this "information".

Some people simply enjoy pulling off a hoax. Other people start with a small semi-truthful account that snowballs into a big lie through repetition. Maybe they weren't intending to lie at the beginning - the lie grew on its own, but now they don't have the courage to admit they have been fibbing. Maybe they enjoy the attention.

 

Some people put a lot of money and effort into hoaxes. Here is an example from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Giant

[zuker12]

It might be that those who weren't writing books about themselves tried to get attention and possibly fame and money through other sources. John Todd did get cash to set up a "rehabilitation center for ex-witches" so I guess there are some motives after all for these kinds of things. Mike Warnke decidedly got a lot of money and publicity out of his hoax.

 

Well, the Illuminati don't exist. Serpent symbolism in freemasonry does not link to Satan automatically since it is simply an ancient religious symbol - but what about all those references to Lucifer in masonic writings? Do they simply mean what the word means (light bringer) and not Satan? Is it a personification of some sort of universal being or entity that brings enlightenment and self-empowerment to people?

 

I don't see nothing bad in and of itself in witchcraft. I currently believe in spiritual phenomenon, so magick is entirely possible. It's how you use it that counts. So I don't necessarily see anything bad in magick, or anything Satanic. Magick and occultism is just an amalgamation of nearly all religious paths that exist - that's why there's the serpent, and karma and reincarnation and all other doctrines mish-mashed together in a sort of a universal religious paradigm. Why would those people who adhere to occultism try to take over the world? Of course christians think it is a satanic deception, because it's coming out of the wrong religions, even when occultists draw parallels to christianity.

 

Also end of the world. Major reasons why christians are so provoked by conspiracy theories.

 

http://xenlogic.blogspot.fi/2012/04/debunking-conspiracy-theories.html

 

This was a good read on conspiracy theory and lies.

[zuker12]

I know a god of love is incompatible with fundamentalism, or allegiances, or oaths of loyalty. A god who hides and then kills for failing to believe in him is not loving. A god who kills and tortures for failure is not love. No matter if there is a greater good for his actions; eternal torture should be banished from this existence. No one asked to exist and thus end up doing evil actions, when god knows what will happen. Either god is not all-knowing or fully good; or has an impulse to eternally punish sinners, us god damned imperfect beings who never asked to be here, to endure eternal punishment. He set up the whole system, knowing full-well what the consequences were. Yet he is supposedly loving. I simply can't return love to such a deity. I might be intimidated to be good, but really is that honest? Or will I end up in hell for not HONESTLY loving god? Are my ideas just hellishly mistaken?

 

I know what kind of a live I want to live and it isn't entirely compatible with the christian god.

 

I also know I have to begin a new life, with no computers or information or stupid sources of shit polluting my thinking. I hjope to move out soon and finally end this misery where I live in right now.

 

I know I'm going through a lot of negative energy in my life right now. I've been angry enough to trash places and I'm causing a great lot of harm to the people I love most. I am not normally like this. BUt something has to give in in this insane shit world.

[directionless]

I know a god of love is incompatible with fundamentalism, or allegiances, or oaths of loyalty. A god who hides and then kills for failing to believe in him is not loving. A god who kills and tortures for failure is not love. No matter if there is a greater good for his actions; eternal torture should be banished from this existence. No one asked to exist and thus end up doing evil actions, when god knows what will happen. Either god is not all-knowing or fully good; or has an impulse to eternally punish sinners, us god damned imperfect beings who never asked to be here, to endure eternal punishment. He set up the whole system, knowing full-well what the consequences were. Yet he is supposedly loving. I simply can't return love to such a deity. I might be intimidated to be good, but really is that honest? Or will I end up in hell for not HONESTLY loving god? Are my ideas just hellishly mistaken?

 

I know what kind of a live I want to live and it isn't entirely compatible with the christian god.

 

I also know I have to begin a new life, with no computers or information or stupid sources of shit polluting my thinking. I hjope to move out soon and finally end this misery where I live in right now.

 

I know I'm going through a lot of negative energy in my life right now. I've been angry enough to trash places and I'm causing a great lot of harm to the people I love most. I am not normally like this. BUt something has to give in in this insane shit world.

What you said at the end sounds like a good insight. I've noticed I care more about religion, UFOs, and conspiracy theories when I'm stressed or depressed. When everything seems hopeless or pointless in my life then I start looking for something to care about?

 

Anyway, I hope you can reduce some of the sources of stress and also find ways of coping.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I have no way of controlling OCD. It simply flares up and leaves me spending hours reading and feeling bad when I don't.

 

Have you discussed it with a doctor?  There is good evidence for medication, and cognitive behavioural therapy by a psychologist.

[Fweethawt]

I remember going through the whole religion, conspiracy theory, alien/Satan worship thing, too.

 

Then one day it hit me. I asked myself what's REALLY going on here. It was then I realized that my mind could be tricked into believing ANYTHING.

 

After that, the struggle of learning to think critically ensued and today, I can pretty much smell bullshit before most bullshitters even start talking.