Having Their Conscience Seared With A Hot Iron

[xtify]

I was reading this apologetic bullshit about peoples' consciences being seared and, sorry christians, but it made me want to puke.  I decided to post it here, wondering what other christians and non-christians thought of this subject:

 

http://simpleapologetics.com/cauterizingconscience.html

... 

Our society under the prince of the power of the air has two objectives. Objective number one is destroy the moral law so that the conscience is misinformed. Train people against what is innately the law that is in their hearts when they're born, give them a new morality, not the morality of the Bible, not God's law. We want people not to think biblically. We want them freed from that so we'll construct another morality that will pour that into their lives through every means possible. That's destructive.

And then the second thing that society wants to do orchestrated by the enemy of your souls is to tell you that your conscience is a liar. That's what's wrong with you isn't sin, it's a lack of...what?...self-esteem. It isn't that you're bad, it's that you're good and you need to think better of yourself. And so you need to turn off your switch. You need to say to your conscience, "Shut up, Gringo." The wisdom of our age, the modern psychology says that guilt feelings are nearly always wrong, always erroneous, always harmful...switch them off. You're good, you're noble, and if you do go wrong it's because you're a victim of someone else's views, or negative influence. The guilty conscience isn't healthy, it shouldn't be tolerated, switch it off.

So we have a whole society of people who are working hard to do that and succeeding and flying blind into a deadly crash. So the society wants to do two things, misinform the conscience and desensitize it. And so, always the world works on overturning biblical morality and replacing it with the tolerance of sin and it works on silencing the conscience...and that's doubly deadly. The conscience is the soul reflecting on itself.

And frankly, the conscience is at the core of what it means to be human, as opposed to being an animal. What distinguishes human beings and animals is self-consciousness, that is the ability of the soul to reflect upon itself. Humans are the only creatures in the material world who can think about their thoughts, who can contemplate why they think the way they think, who can understand their motives, who can make moral self-evaluations. And that is a God-given gift, the innate ability to sense what is right and wrong, the innate ability to know that I am flying into a deadly mountain. And when conscience is violated, it produces feelings of shame, feelings of regret, feelings of guilt, feelings of fear. You think somebody's watching, feelings of anxiety, feelings of disgrace and feelings of anguish and feelings of depression. And conscience is designed by God to create those feelings when the law is violated.

Conventional wisdom today says "Shut that stuff up. Those are illegitimate internal indictments, guilt and shame are not legitimate, you are good, you maybe just made a mistake. You're not to blame, society is to blame, or your parents are to blame, or you ate too many Twinkies, or whatever. You're having a reaction." Everything has a quasi or medical psychological explanation, it's some disorder, or some syndrome that is somehow invaded your innate goodness. Just tell your conscience to shut up.

Now sadly, if you work at this you can succeed. The pilate could flip the switch and shut it off, and he did and so can people. It is possible to nullify, to minimize, to silence conscience. In fact, there are people who have worked so hard at it and so well at it that their conscience has become so convoluted that their conscience which was a device given by God becomes so twisted that they are actually proud about their sins. We say about people like that that they have done something that is unconscionable. There are people who parade their iniquities like notches on their belt.

I always think about that when I see the Gay/Lesbian Pride Parade. How do you get to that point? How do you get to that point where you're reveling and boasting in your iniquity? What happened to conscience?

Paul describes such convoluted consciences in Philippians 3:19 when he says, "Their glory, their boast is in their shame." Amazing, you can so destroy your conscience that you literally come to the point where you consider the highest point of your honor your iniquity. Paul described it in Titus 1:15, "To those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, both their mind and their conscience are defiled." You can get to a point where nothing is pure, your conscience is silent, non-functioning, totally defiled. Everything comes to you defiled because your mind is defiled.

 

 

When I was a christian, I used to suffer from severe guilt and shame from having impure thoughts and from being remorseful for the crazy things I did when I was unsaved.  I quite literally gave myself a mental illness of my own making because of my perceived sins against the creator of the universe.  I really must have grieved him because I was one of those bad girls.  He wouldn't have had to kill his own son if it wasn't for me and my misdeeds and evil, lustful thoughts.  I probably cried a million tears over how I had let him down.  

 

I would try to stop my eyes from seeing impure things that would hurt my imaginary friend jesus. There were so many things that hurt his precious ass all the time, that it got to the point where I wouldn't allow anything in my life that would cause him grief.  I stopped watching movies, listening to the music I liked and I only listened or watched His stuff.  I wanted so badly to be pure, but I never got there.  I would ask him to cleanse me with his blood, but all that would do was make a bloody mess.  

 

I suffered inside and out trying to live up to his standards.  Even if I sucessfully did it for a while, there would always be some Evangelist, Pastor, or gospel schoolmarm who could "convict" me of some new crime against His Holiness.  Eventually, I was a useless mess of a person.  I was unable to function in a society full of sinfullness and I became a bit of a hermit there for a bit.  Then I had the guilt of not being "used" by god.  How was I being a useful servant for him if I wasn't out there leading people to his magic lordship?  I would tear myself apart with fear of him rejecting me for not being a good and faithful servant, and all for what???

 

How is punishing yourself for thought crimes a good way to live?  How does doing this result in psychological peace?

 

And christians... do you even know what the law is?  When you eat at Red Lobster after church on Sunday, why is that ok?  Does the holy spirit give you a pang of guilt then?  Why is it that you are ok with breaking almost all the original laws that you claim fall under the grace loophole?  

 

But as for lust, there's no grace for that. 

 

[xtify]

I take offense at this line:

"Shut up, Gringo."

This article is racist.

 

Yep, racist, but let's not forget... homophobic.  The line about Gay pride just makes me want to cringe.  Maybe it's the holy spirit telling me it's bad. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

The writer does the usual religionist's job:

 

take something that is part of human nature

make people feel guilty about it by redefining it as 'sin'

sell them the solution to take the away the 'sin'

but keep them feeling guilty and fearful anyway, so they have to buy refreshers of the solution

repeat

[zuker12]

I always thought my conscience was at odds with God's morality. When I contemplated satanism and apatheism I thought our conscience was ingrained within us but not holding up to God's law. I think it follows some base line set of rules, almost equal to the Ten commandments.

 

This is just christianity trying to own a human base function. It is important to us but it does not tell us which god to worship, except when are indoctrinated in totalitarian systems.

[xtify]

The idea that grace covers some sins is an interesting subtopic.  Does a person have to be remorseful for grace to work?  For example, when a christian wears a polyester/cotton blend shirt, do they have to be sorry the whole time for the grace covering to apply?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

That's what's wrong with you isn't sin, it's a lack of...what?...self-esteem. It isn't that you're bad, it's that you're good and you need to think better of yourself.

How many more children need to suffer from feelings of low self-esteem and worthlessness before we finally define indoctrination as the child abuse that it is?  I'm a grown man with a child of my own and I still struggle sometimes with self-esteem.

[xtify]

 

 

That's what's wrong with you isn't sin, it's a lack of...what?...self-esteem. It isn't that you're bad, it's that you're good and you need to think better of yourself.

How many more children need to suffer from feelings of low self-esteem and worthlessness before we finally define indoctrination as the child abuse that it is?  I'm a grown man with a child of my own and I still struggle sometimes with self-esteem.

 

 

I agree.  Teaching children that they are evil from conception and that there's something wrong with them is child abuse.  

[xtify]

 

from the OP article:

...

John Flavil wrote in the seventeenth century, "Conscience which should have been the sinner's curb here on earth becomes the sinner's whip that will lash his soul in hell. That which was the seat and center of all guilt now becomes the seat and center of all torment," end quote. Conscience will make the damned sinner acutely aware that he deliberately, freely, gladly chose the life that led him to hell. It will force him to admit the truth of every charge it brings and the absolute justice of every pain he suffers.

If you're going to win the battle with sin, folks, there's only two ways that can be done. You can't mask your internal vice permanently. There's two ways to win the battle. One is to fully inform your conscience by having a high understanding, a thorough understanding of the holy law of God. And secondly, learning to respond to every pang of conscience.

...

 

Do you even know what  the "holy law of God" is anyway, christians?

If it's supposed to be what informs your conscience, then why do you only pick the laws you want, and discard most other laws?

 

I say you are just brainwashed people, following the rules of your denomination.  You haven't likely a clue what the law says and if you did look it up, you'd be shocked at how absurd some of the laws actually are.

[Roz]

One thing caught my attention from that passage: 

"You're good, you're noble, and if you do go wrong it's because you're a victim of someone else's views, or negative influence. The guilty conscience isn't healthy, it shouldn't be tolerated, switch it off."

 

Christians love to turn morality into a digital switch, either on or off.  This is how the majority view atheists.  "They think they're good, so if they do wrong they think they're victimes of someone else's views or influence."

 

Bullshit.  If I wrong someone that's on me.  I have the choice of apologizing or not.  I feel bad when I see them because of the wrong I've done. 

[xtify]

But Roz, 

 

How can you have morality without an invisible dictator and an old goatherding book?

[Roz]

You're right, going back to barbeque more babies for literal baby back ribs.

[xtify]

Roz, without the bahbull, you truly are a lost cause . 

[xtify]

[Yusef]

How is punishing yourself for thought crimes a good way to live?  How does doing this result in psychological peace?

 

Well the bible says you can have peace if you focus on non-sinful things and not sinful things. 

 

For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6

 

But what is the minimum amount of non-sinful things needed to focus on before you can get this peace?

 

If I have a lustful thought can I not have this peace? What if I forget to follow the speed limit or put on my seat belt? Does that disqualify me from getting the peace? 

 

Do I have to focus on a large amount of non-sinful things to get the peace or a small amount of non-sinful things to get the peace?

 

Most people would probably say a large amount of non-sinful things.

 

Okay, so how much is a large amount of non-sinful things?

 

Most people would probably say, "Well we don't know because the bible doesn't really tell us but it's definitely more than a small amount of non-sinful things."

[xtify]

 

How is punishing yourself for thought crimes a good way to live?  How does doing this result in psychological peace?

 

Well the bible says you can have peace if you focus on non-sinful things and not sinful things. 

 

For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6

 

But what is the minimum amount of non-sinful things needed to focus on before you can get this peace?

 

If I have a lustful thought can I not have this peace? What if I forget to follow the speed limit or put on my seat belt? Does that disqualify me from getting the peace? 

 

Do I have to focus on a large amount of non-sinful things to get the peace or a small amount of non-sinful things to get the peace?

 

Most people would probably say a large amount of non-sinful things.

 

Okay, so how much is a large amount of non-sinful things?

 

Most people would probably say, "Well we don't know because the bible doesn't really tell us but it's definitely more than a small amount of non-sinful things."

 

 

How is beating myself up about normal thought processes going to allow me to feel at peace with myself?  And if I walk by a billboard with a half naked woman on it and accidently like it, why should I harm myself with self-inflicted thoughts of guilt and shame? How does this help me as a person?

 

My observation has been that the more people follow and adhere to the bible, the more miserable they are.  

 

What do you make of the law?  Do you think Jesus really had to die because his daddy made a bunch of stupid rules that the Israelites couldn't follow?  And why is the morality portrayed in the bible so much less acceptable than the morality of today?

 

Jesus supposedly died so that we could be free from sin.  But there is no power in that for christians.  It doesn't stop them from sinning or allow them to feel forgiven and at peace.  Maybe the odd one, but most of them are living in fear that they are not measuring up.  

 

Ficino is right in post #4.  The church keeps people feeling guilty and fearful so that they can sell and resell them solutions to fake problems.  It's just a way to hook a fish (or herd a sheep in this case).

 

People make mistakes and feel guilty.  The church magnifies a person's guilt and makes it seem like you owe a debt you can never repay.  Then they tell you the creator had to torture and kill his only son for you.  How the hell is one even supposed to sleep at night with this scenario, let alone experience anything remotely like peace?

[Roz]

 

How is punishing yourself for thought crimes a good way to live?  How does doing this result in psychological peace?

 

Well the bible says you can have peace if you focus on non-sinful things and not sinful things. 

 

For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6

 

But what is the minimum amount of non-sinful things needed to focus on before you can get this peace?

 

If I have a lustful thought can I not have this peace? What if I forget to follow the speed limit or put on my seat belt? Does that disqualify me from getting the peace? 

 

Do I have to focus on a large amount of non-sinful things to get the peace or a small amount of non-sinful things to get the peace?

 

Most people would probably say a large amount of non-sinful things.

 

Okay, so how much is a large amount of non-sinful things?

 

Most people would probably say, "Well we don't know because the bible doesn't really tell us but it's definitely more than a small amount of non-sinful things."

 

 

Hmmmm new christian...

 

Provide proof that your god exists.  You sin all the time against all the other gods proposed by all the other religions, but you don't give a shit. 

 

Provide proof that your christian god is the real god, then your christian definition of sin would matter. 

[Roz]

And christian, if you can't answer that, at least humor me and tell me this.

 

Give your definition of sin.  (let's see if it's different from all the other den christians' definitions of sin)

[Margee]

 

 

 

For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6

 

 

 

 

This makes a whole lot of sense you think? We have a god that is all powerful and yet he makes man in his own image completely covered in 'flesh'....then gave us eyes to see other 'flesh', and then gave us all animal, sexual desires and 'drives'... along with all our senses to feel, hear, see, taste, smell. Yep, he's a pretty dumb god if you ask me. Why the fuck didn't he just make us all 'spirit' in the first place if that's what he wanted.?? No, No...god wants to place the blame on his own creation that he made in the first place. 

[xtify]

 

 

 

 

For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6

 

 

 

 

This makes a whole lot of sense you think? We have a god that is all powerful and yet he makes man in his own image completely covered in 'flesh'....then gave us eyes to see other 'flesh', and then gave us all animal, sexual desires and 'drives'... along with all our senses to feel, hear, see, taste, smell. Yep, he's a pretty dumb god if you ask me. Why the fuck didn't he just make us all 'spirit' in the first place if that's what he wanted.?? No, No...god wants to place the blame on his own creation that he made in the first place.

 

 

Thank you so much for that Margee.  I've thought that many times.  Why does such a perfect god make so many things he hates?

[Yusef]

What do you make of the law?  Do you think Jesus really had to die because his daddy made a bunch of stupid rules that the Israelites couldn't follow?  And why is the morality portrayed in the bible so much less acceptable than the morality of today?

 

 

My understanding of the law is that Jesus fulfilled the law and as a result he gave us a new set of rules.

 

I guess bible morality is less acceptable today because not many people take it seriously.

 

Jesus supposedly died so that we could be free from sin.  But there is no power in that for christians.  It doesn't stop them from sinning or allow them to feel forgiven and at peace.  Maybe the odd one, but most of them are living in fear that they are not measuring up.  

That goes back to what I was saying.

 

The bible says it's possible to have peace by having some undefined number of good works, but since it never defines the number of good works required to have peace you can never be 100% sure that you have peace or that you're measuring up.

 

I guess fear of hell motivates people to do good works and the more good works they do the closer they get to obtaining peace.

 

So it's like for every good work you do you get 1% closer to getting peace, but you never reach the full 100% because the bible never defines the minimum amount of works needed to have 100% certainty of peace.

[Yusef]

 

Provide proof that your christian god is the real god, then your christian definition of sin would matter. 

 

I believe the reports from Tacitus and others that Jesus existed, and the fact that Christianity has been around for so long makes me think that the story is more than a myth. 

[Roz]

 

 

Provide proof that your christian god is the real god, then your christian definition of sin would matter. 

 

I believe the reports from Tacitus and others that Jesus existed, and the fact that Christianity has been around for so long makes me think that the story is more than a myth. 

 

 

1.  Tacitus never mentioned the name jesus.  His words (per wiki): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

 

Furthermore, there is no original manuscript for his work.  Oldest script is from the 11th century from a christian abbey, hardly compelling evidence.

No original manuscripts of the Annals exist and the surviving copies of Tacitus' works derive from two principal manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, written in Latin, which are held in the Laurentian Library in Florence, Italy. It is the second Medicean manuscript, 11th century and from the Benedictine abbey at Monte Cassino, which is the oldest surviving copy of the passage describing Christians.

 

2.  Going by the age of one's beliefs, why aren't you a Hindu?

[Roz]

And Yusef, I don't know you at all so I'm trying not to be as pointed as I am with the other Den christians. 

 

But you do know that proving a historical man named jesus existing is totally different to proving that he is the one true god, right?

[Roz]

"I guess bible morality is less acceptable today because not many people take it seriously."

 

-do you truly know biblical morality?

[Yusef]

 

 

 

Provide proof that your christian god is the real god, then your christian definition of sin would matter. 

 

I believe the reports from Tacitus and others that Jesus existed, and the fact that Christianity has been around for so long makes me think that the story is more than a myth. 

 

 

1.  Tacitus never mentioned the name jesus.  His words (per wiki): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

 

Furthermore, there is no original manuscript for his work.  Oldest script is from the 11th century from a christian abbey, hardly compelling evidence.

No original manuscripts of the Annals exist and the surviving copies of Tacitus' works derive from two principal manuscripts, known as the Medicean manuscripts, written in Latin, which are held in the Laurentian Library in Florence, Italy. It is the second Medicean manuscript, 11th century and from the Benedictine abbey at Monte Cassino, which is the oldest surviving copy of the passage describing Christians.

 

 

I do believe Tacitus was talking about Jesus there, and I also believe the reports from Josephus, Lucian, etc.

 

And Yusef, I don't know you at all so I'm trying not to be as pointed as I am with the other Den christians. 

 

But you do know that proving a historical man named jesus existing is totally different to proving that he is the one true god, right?

 

but him existing and dying in accordance with old testament prophecy is convincing to me.

 

"I guess bible morality is less acceptable today because not many people take it seriously."

 

-do you truly know biblical morality?

 

Yeah love God and love your neighbor as yourself is sort of acceptable, but when topics like homosexuality come up is when biblical morality becomes less acceptable.