amateur Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 But, according to xianity, jesus WAS god and jesus went around in a physical body presenting himself to people for 33 years, three of which he was doing his god-work. Jesus, in a physical body, went around and performed miracles in public. This apparently did not interfere with people's free wills back then. Even his own disciples weren't always 100% sure who jesus was, and Judas turned him in. And the majority of the jews back then did not believe that jesus was the messiah, even when they could see him. And SOMEBODY crucified him who saw him, who apparently did not lose their free will to not believe in his godship. And back in Moses's day, Moses spoke to the burning bush and they followed the pillar of smoke and fire around the desert, and they had manna from heaven, which I think shows that god was showing himself, BUT STILL as soon as Moses went to get the ten commandments (the first set) the people collected their gold and made a golden calf to worship. Obviously, they saw SOMETHING but their free will let them ignore it. And as far as cars and driving. As a professional driver, I do NOT trust that everybody else is going to drive safely. I was taught to drive defensively and to expect that everybody else on the road was either 98-years-old and legally blind, OR a 16-year-old texting with one hand and eating fries with the other and smoking with yet a third. When I drove bus, being up high it was easier to watch the cars in all four directions from me, and I could see in advance before most people were going to do something not safe. But I could SEE the cars and the drivers. I do NOT drive with trust, I drive with a close eyes on the cars around me, and for deer ready to leap out of the trees at me (I live in Pennsylvania, this is what we do). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 30, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2014 my mistke i would hope people wouldn take me seriously if i was purposely being willfully blind, there is a difference between willfully ignorant and simply not knowing or genuine misunderstanding. To me non emperical and non physical is the same feel free to help me see the the difference using an example for each. Professor thanks for that info about logic, that is subjective correct because humans use it differently to explain and describe phenomenon. But logical absolutes are timeless and unchanging what if i presented a case built around this for God? What florduh said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 james 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. You cannot ask for anything if it conflicts with sellfish desires since being selfish is not a desire God wants us to have. God will not present himself because that would eliminate trust him like ina relationship, We can never fully know any other person. We cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions areBecause we are incapable of fully knowing other people, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, a wife gets into a car with her husband driving, trusting him to drive safely, even though he often drives faster than she would on winter roads. She trusts him to act in their best interest at all times. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they will not betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships. Your god, in the Bible, DEMANDS that people love him and to do that, it is necessary for us to know that he exists. If we do not love him, he throws us into a lake of fire to be burned (how long we suffer there still isn't agreed upon by believers, though the ones I am most familiar with believe that the suffering lasts forever, without end, and without so much as a temporary break from the suffering). Is it selfish to not want to be tormented in a lake of fire? Probably, but how can you possibly think that there is ANY such thing as free will if we are required to believe, WITHOUT EVIDENCE, only to end up burning in a lake of fire for not believing in the correct dogma? Also, how can you possibly think that you have a relationship with your god if he never shows himself to you? If a person never sees their parents, never hears their voice, and never even receives a phone call from them, do they have a relationship? Should they trust that their absent parents have their best interest at heart? You comparing a relationship with your god to a relationship between a husband and a wife is a HORRIBLE comparison. Any time your god supposedly does something, it looks like a random event with no cause. A husband and a wife that actually have a relationship communicate and can see each other. They don't remain separate and expect each other to know what they are thinking or what they want from the other based on a bunch of assertions made by people who claimed to have known them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 midniterider again God is not a cosmic genie, a toy, that you play with and press a button and noise comes out. Furthermore, if he presented himself to you, that would erase free will, you would beleive him because you had no other choice. Not because you wanted to but because you ahd to you were forced to. God does want to Force anyone to do anything otherwise he would have already oh bullshit, weapons grade bullshitium. Free will would be unaffected if the gutless coward showed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 james 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. You cannot ask for anything if it conflicts with sellfish desires since being selfish is not a desire God wants us to have. God will not present himself because that would eliminate trust him like ina relationship, We can never fully know any other person. We cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions areBecause we are incapable of fully knowing other people, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, a wife gets into a car with her husband driving, trusting him to drive safely, even though he often drives faster than she would on winter roads. She trusts him to act in their best interest at all times. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they will not betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships. what wrong motive could their be to helping innocent children?! How much of a horrible monster is your so called "god" to allow innocent children to suffer, when they've done nothing wrong, and dont give me any of that "original sin bullshit", nor "sins of their whatever" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Furthermore, if he presented himself to you, that would erase free will, you would beleive him because you had no other choice. Not because you wanted to but because you ahd to you were forced to. God does want to Force anyone to do anything otherwise he would have already I have heard this argument from other apologetics. Where in the bible is this concept stated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 So what does this mean? I know it doesnt mean God exists, but what DOES it mean? This alone doesnt connect instantly to a God. Christians will say I don't know so must be GOD, athiest will say i dont know so must be science. Both are incorrect logic I think the mistake in the thinking you make here is, that you confuse science with being a persona or so. An atheist will not say it must be science. He will simply say I don't know so lets find out by USING science. Science is just a tool. Like a microscope or a spectrometer or a centrifuge. It also is a method. Like you make statistics, compare the data and draw your conclusions. It is an instrument that allows you to investigate and explore. So the logic in a case of someone who has been declared dead and coming back to life would be: We don't know but we can try to find out and see if we have a brain scan from before, while and after this persons brain was shut down to appear being dead. And maybe we have some other data like blood samples, heart movement, breath rates, nervous inputs etc. And then we might have other cases with those data and we can compare them. Maybe there is a hint of an idea and we set up a hypothesis. Then we seek to find further evidence do experiments, observations, analysis and draw conclusions and if it supports the hypothesis, we get closer to a theory. If not we need to do more experiments and research etc. and one day maybe we can know. But until then we just don't and don't make any claims. Science is helping us finding answers but it is not the answer itself. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 The burden of proof is on the Christians as they are the ones making the positive claim that God exists. Science can't prove a negative, it can only show absence of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 OOOOOOOOh here we now its starts to get HOT in here. Where Roz when the action is actually in progress Hm perhaps you are right Jesus was here and it didnt erase free will, in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now?Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, the Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. They chose instead to trust the word of ten men who frightened them with their stories of the walled cities and the giant stature of some of the people of the land (Numbers 13:26-33). These events show that God's further revelation of Himself to us would have no greater effect on our ability to trust Him. Were God to interact in a similar fashion with people living today, we would respond no differently than the Israelites because our sinful hearts are the same as theirs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Christians, your god appeared to people with no problems about their "free will" being taken away. http://www.immanuela...god-appendix-5/ Follow that link. Get it through your heads. You christians preach that "even the devil believes" (James 2:18-20). Does that mean that the devil is going to your heaven? NO. You christians butcher your very own theology up so badly that you trip and fall over yourselves defending it. What's the real reason you guys say "believe in him?" Believe that he exists? NO. You guys say "believe that he died for your sins and ACCEPT his sacrifice and FOLLOW him." But you leave those last two parts out when you say "if he appeared then he's taking away your free will, you'll automatically believe in him!" Bull fucking shit. Yes, your argument is just like a bull fucking his own shit. And yes A1 sauce, I'm right here. Stop using your impotent male organ to fuck your own theological bullshit up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 midniterider again God is not a cosmic genie, a toy, that you play with and press a button and noise comes out. Furthermore, if he presented himself to you, that would erase free will, you would beleive him because you had no other choice. Not because you wanted to but because you ahd to you were forced to. God does want to Force anyone to do anything otherwise he would have already If he presented himself to me I would then obviously know as fact that he existed...though I would not be forced to follow his rules or kiss his butt. My free will would still be intact. Whether or not God exists doesn't erase my free will. How would knowing God existed take away my free will? Christians choose to believe something exists even though it obviously DOES NOT exist. When faced with the fact that God DOES NOT exist does this take away your free will to believe otherwise? No, of course not. :-) You choose to believe in God even though it is obvious there is no such being. That which does not exist cannot force anyone to do anything anyway. :-) But assuming for a moment that your God does exist but does not want to force me to do anything, then I'm good with that. I choose not to believe in him and that appears to be acceptable to both parties, correct? God's fine with it and I'm fine with it. To say that God would take away my free will if he showed his face is a lame excuse Christians use for God's chronic absence. Another lame excuse Christians use is saying that he won't answer prayers 'cuz God aint no cosmic genie....' Please give me some more lame excuses for why he exists yet does nothing but wants a 'personal relationship.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 Thansk moanareina for your explanations altho the doctors with all the staff and with other doctors and they all seen people die and come abck withina few minutes after their heart stopped but this person heart stopped for 45minutes. But i see what your saying when atheist do not knwo, they remain in that state until evidence presented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 you are right i stand corrected it probably wouldnt take away free will, it would fortify the bibles predictions again as i repeat "in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now?" A1 Sauce now that has a nice ring to it. And wow im so happy the Real athiests are coming out now man took yall long enoughFLORDUCH AND ALLL OTHERSSS!!!!!........ Now its time...for your presentation my friend, not evidence for God just a presentation for rational discourse My ArgumentIf The laws of Logic came from man, and man didn't always exist, then laws of logic didn't always exist because it would be contingent upon man existing first in order for it to be created by Man.If laws of logic have always existed and is timeless then this proves that it did not come from man, because man would not have existed yet to create it.Logic is immaterial so it cannot be buried or found under a rock. So it cannot be tested scientifically if someone's definition was that science can only observes things that are material or properties of the universe. If it is not a property of the universe science cannot measure it in the same way that it would measure a rock or a chair. it would have to measure philosophically or by some other methodology.If Laws of Logic are properties of the universe then it should be able to be observed in the same manner as a water, dirt etc. But laws of logic cannot be observed in that specific manner so then it is not a property of the universe. If Man is a property of the universe and laws of logic is not so it cannot come from man.To all here...So we can simply observe the laws of logic but can we account for where it comes from, if so where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 Thansk moanareina for your explanations altho the doctors with all the staff and with other doctors and they all seen people die and come abck withina few minutes after their heart stopped but this person heart stopped for 45minutes. But i see what your saying when atheist do not knwo, they remain in that state until evidence presented 45 minutes happens. Don't get what your point is there. And well, to remain in that state too sounds a bit weird but if you want to, thats ok with me. I think the crux with the Christian explanation is that they just call it God and thats it. If it was God there is no need for further investigation because the case is closed. But what if we can find the cause for this that is beyond the explanation Christians have? Maybe it could help medicine and humanity by finding out new things about the brain that helps with all kinds of struggles humans have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 james 4:3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. You cannot ask for anything if it conflicts with sellfish desires since being selfish is not a desire God wants us to have. God doesn't want me to be selfish? That erases my free will then , because it is my will to be selfish. A few messages back you said God doesnt want to take away my free will. WTF. Make up your mind. God will not present himself because that would eliminate trust him like ina relationship, Super duper bullshit, sir. These types of catfishing relationships are showcased on the Dr Phil Show. The victims send lots of money to someone they've never met in person who has some lame reason why he 'cant' meet them in person but he sure loves the victim (well, their money anyway). Jesus is a catfish! Sounds like a great scam. It's worked for the church for two thousand years. We can never fully know any other person. I dont know EVERYTHING about my wife but I do know she really exists and we have real live two way conversations and sometimes even arguments. God never appears and never says anything so I conclude he is non-existent... or doesn't want a relationship with me. And I'm good with that. We cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions areBecause we are incapable of fully knowing other people, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, a wife gets into a car with her husband driving, trusting him to drive safely, even though he often drives faster than she would on winter roads. She trusts him to act in their best interest at all times. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they will not betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships. Try having God drive your car...oh wait, right .... he's not a genie to do your bidding. Why should I trust a God with my best interests if he can't even show his face? On YOUR word? haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 But, according to xianity, jesus WAS god and jesus went around in a physical body presenting himself to people for 33 years, three of which he was doing his god-work. Jesus, in a physical body, went around and performed miracles in public. This apparently did not interfere with people's free wills back then. Even his own disciples weren't always 100% sure who jesus was, and Judas turned him in. And the majority of the jews back then did not believe that jesus was the messiah, even when they could see him. And SOMEBODY crucified him who saw him, who apparently did not lose their free will to not believe in his godship. And back in Moses's day, Moses spoke to the burning bush and they followed the pillar of smoke and fire around the desert, and they had manna from heaven, which I think shows that god was showing himself, BUT STILL as soon as Moses went to get the ten commandments (the first set) the people collected their gold and made a golden calf to worship. Obviously, they saw SOMETHING but their free will let them ignore it. And as far as cars and driving. As a professional driver, I do NOT trust that everybody else is going to drive safely. I was taught to drive defensively and to expect that everybody else on the road was either 98-years-old and legally blind, OR a 16-year-old texting with one hand and eating fries with the other and smoking with yet a third. When I drove bus, being up high it was easier to watch the cars in all four directions from me, and I could see in advance before most people were going to do something not safe. But I could SEE the cars and the drivers. I do NOT drive with trust, I drive with a close eyes on the cars around me, and for deer ready to leap out of the trees at me (I live in Pennsylvania, this is what we do). Seems like flipping over tables (Mt 21:12) and yelling at people and 'driving them out' would affect someone's free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 you are right i stand corrected it probably wouldnt take away free will, it would fortify the bibles predictions again as i repeat "in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now?" A1 Sauce now that has a nice ring to it. And wow im so happy the Real athiests are coming out now man took yall long enough FLORDUCH AND ALLL OTHERSSS!!!!!........ Now its time...for your presentation my friend, not evidence for God just a presentation for rational discourse My Argument If The laws of Logic came from man, and man didn't always exist, then laws of logic didn't always exist because it would be contingent upon man existing first in order for it to be created by Man. If laws of logic have always existed and is timeless then this proves that it did not come from man, because man would not have existed yet to create it. Logic is immaterial so it cannot be buried or found under a rock. So it cannot be tested scientifically if someone's definition was that science can only observes things that are material or properties of the universe. If it is not a property of the universe science cannot measure it in the same way that it would measure a rock or a chair. it would have to measure philosophically or by some other methodology. If Laws of Logic are properties of the universe then it should be able to be observed in the same manner as a water, dirt etc. But laws of logic cannot be observed in that specific manner so then it is not a property of the universe. If Man is a property of the universe and laws of logic is not so it cannot come from man. To all here...So we can simply observe the laws of logic but can we account for where it comes from, if so where? That isn't an argument. I thought you said you wanted to be rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 OOOOOOOOh here we now its starts to get HOT in here. Where Roz when the action is actually in progress Hm perhaps you are right Jesus was here and it didnt erase free will, in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now? Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, the Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. You are talking about fictional event mentioned in a series of novels. They didn't happen. God didn't do anything back then because God is imaginary. The people didn't respond to the things God didn't do because it didn't happen. There have been no demonstrations of God's love, guidance or power. Imaginary things can't demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 OOOOOOOOh here we now its starts to get HOT in here. Where Roz when the action is actually in progress Hm perhaps you are right Jesus was here and it didnt erase free will, in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now? Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, the Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. They chose instead to trust the word of ten men who frightened them with their stories of the walled cities and the giant stature of some of the people of the land (Numbers 13:26-33). These events show that God's further revelation of Himself to us would have no greater effect on our ability to trust Him. Were God to interact in a similar fashion with people living today, we would respond no differently than the Israelites because our sinful hearts are the same as theirs all that is in accordance with the crap book, buybull. nothing of those "visual experiences" have any evidence of existance beyond said crapbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 you are right i stand corrected it probably wouldnt take away free will, it would fortify the bibles predictions again as i repeat "in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now?" A1 Sauce now that has a nice ring to it. And wow im so happy the Real athiests are coming out now man took yall long enough FLORDUCH AND ALLL OTHERSSS!!!!!........ Now its time...for your presentation my friend, not evidence for God just a presentation for rational discourse My Argument If The laws of Logic came from man, and man didn't always exist, then laws of logic didn't always exist because it would be contingent upon man existing first in order for it to be created by Man. If laws of logic have always existed and is timeless then this proves that it did not come from man, because man would not have existed yet to create it. Logic is immaterial so it cannot be buried or found under a rock. So it cannot be tested scientifically if someone's definition was that science can only observes things that are material or properties of the universe. If it is not a property of the universe science cannot measure it in the same way that it would measure a rock or a chair. it would have to measure philosophically or by some other methodology. If Laws of Logic are properties of the universe then it should be able to be observed in the same manner as a water, dirt etc. But laws of logic cannot be observed in that specific manner so then it is not a property of the universe. If Man is a property of the universe and laws of logic is not so it cannot come from man. To all here...So we can simply observe the laws of logic but can we account for where it comes from, if so where? Have you ever studied calculus? When I did I was really amazed at the concepts humans have found to calculate impossible stuff. Pretty creative. Like adding an artificial zero to something in order to regroup the formula and then get a limit value etc. At one point I wondered if calculus had existed all along or if it was just something humans defined. Fact is, you can calculate almost everything by some weird definition humans have found to get to the results and actually our computers and machines work due to that fact. No one came up with that stuff because he prayed and God showed up and told him how to solve his problem. People did experiment and find new things and collected the data for the next generations and now you can become a doctor of mathematics because of this. So Newton has found the law of gravity. There have been other ideas of why an apple falls from a tree for example then gravity. But newton was willing to proof those ideas and find out about gravity and how it works. Gravity has existed before...it has been there all along. But only when Newton came on the scene it has been defined so it could be used to calculate various things. So he applied logic thinking. Not by knowing about gravity. But by testing and finding out about it. He did experiments and drew conclusions about it. So how do we learn to think logic? By experience. Step by step. Logic is not something that is given to you as a magic present and then you start using it. It is learnt. Like when you step into shit you learn that shit is warm but smells terribly. Curiosity is needed. As a child you want to explore the world. You let things fall to the ground to see how it falls and what happens when it does. As you understand that a cup breaks when you let it fall you eventually learn that it is better not to throw cups around. It is a slow process too. A child needs quite some time to understand the consequences of breaking a cup. But I guess you get the point. Now why do you think a God is needed to think logic of for logic itself to exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 midniterider again God is not a cosmic genie, a toy, that you play with and press a button and noise comes out. Furthermore, if he presented himself to you, that would erase free will, you would beleive him because you had no other choice. Not because you wanted to but because you ahd to you were forced to. God does want to Force anyone to do anything otherwise he would have already Presupposition. You assume we have free will without evidence. Truth is we don't understand neurophysiology well enough to make definitive statements about the nature of free will and it's definition and existence. If we don't know, we admit that we don't know. We do not fill the gaps in with presupposition and magical sky daddies. Also, everything else in this universe has been discovered in the very way you described. We interact with a physical system and the measurements are associated with reliable findings. If you want to exempt your god from this process, then your god doesn't exist and interact with the universe and as such is about as valid as any other assumption about what may or may not be "beyond" our universe. As long as your god continues to hide out there with leprechauns and flying spaghetti monsters, we are under no obligation to believe in this fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted July 30, 2014 Author Share Posted July 30, 2014 But still if logical absolutes didnt come from humans and we use them we observed them we discovered them but they came from somewhere they originated somehow they NEED a source of beginningLogic seems to have transcendent properties, they apply whether we recognize them or not. they exist whether we go back in time or forward in time. If Logic then came from man then it loses its transcendental properties. If logic is something a group of people agreed upon, then it still does not answer Where it comes from only recognized. and if its just something people agreed upon then its subject to popular vote and becomes subjective but logic is not subjective in the sense that I applies to reality as we know it. Logic could be just chemical processes or reasoning manifested in the brain but then it differ from people to people if it was based on reason and chemical process, because people don't all reason the same and chemical processes can change If Logic is a process of the mind, conceptual by nature It seems we all agree Logic do not depend on the physical universe for their existence, they are conceptual realities. Since human minds are not timeless and changeless and Logic Absolutes are timeless and changeless , Then it is also fair to conclude that if logic is of the mind, then there must be be a timeless and changeless MIND to which these logical absolutes origin is derived from since logic can only exist if there is a mind.and we also agree Logic is absolute and not subjective and based on the law of excluded middle(humans cannot posses both timeless and changeless and non timeless and non changeless attributes at the same time. It seems humans did not originally create logic but can only observe and recognize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 If Laws of Logic are properties of the universe then it should be able to be observed in the same manner as a water, dirt etc. But laws of logic cannot be observed in that specific manner so then it is not a property of the universe. If Man is a property of the universe and laws of logic is not so it cannot come from man. To all here...So we can simply observe the laws of logic but can we account for where it comes from, if so where? ----------------- Logic is a set of thoughts created by man (and women) and passed down to man (or woman). I can observe logic in my mind using my brain. Maybe you cant. Sorry. :-) "Laws of logic" is just a thought, a concept. It isnt physics. "Laws of logic" isnt like a planet or an electron. It's an idea. Your idea. :-) Can I account from where the idea of "logical laws" comes from? Probably the same place the idea "I want to have sex with a celebrity" comes from. My head. Or someone else's head. Do you ever have thoughts? If so, where do they come from? Or in your case you pretend they come from Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 OOOOOOOOh here we now its starts to get HOT in here. Where Roz when the action is actually in progress Hm perhaps you are right Jesus was here and it didnt erase free will, in fact back in bible days God did many visual experiences but people STILL DIDNT BELIEVE THEN... so what makes you think people would now? Yet, in spite of these repeated demonstrations of His love, guidance, and power, the Israelites still refused to trust Him when He wanted them to enter into the Promised Land. They chose instead to trust the word of ten men who frightened them with their stories of the walled cities and the giant stature of some of the people of the land (Numbers 13:26-33). These events show that God's further revelation of Himself to us would have no greater effect on our ability to trust Him. Were God to interact in a similar fashion with people living today, we would respond no differently than the Israelites because our sinful hearts are the same as theirs You need to provide proof that God exists, outside of the Bible which says he does. We don't recognize the Bible as true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts