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Goodbye Jesus

Help Me Debunk Supernatural


directionless

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You need to explain the QM randomness. Why do you need to invoke the supernatural?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

 

I believe in the supernatural (sometimes) because I have seen lots of strange things. I accept now that I had psychosis, but sometimes I wonder if supernatural forces were also a factor. Maybe people with psychosis are more susceptible to supernatural forces.

 

So I tried to find a way that supernatural might exist without violating physics or being observable. The probability waves in QM seemed to provide an interface for supernatural to influence natural without breaking any rules.

 

I have described this idea to a couple of smart people on other forums who seemed to understand QM, and they both thought it was possible. Neither one those guys bought-into my idea, but they said it was possible.

 

But thinking about supernatural worries me sometimes. I feel more comfortable as an atheist, but I am only atheist on the surface.

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How does a probabilistic solution infer the supernatural? You understand we can look at QM in ways other than wave mechanics? Linear algebra (matrices) was used by Heisenberg to formulate QM. However, Schrodinger's wave equation was a bit more intuitive to the physicists of that time who were used to wave equations. In reality, both Schrodinger's and Heisenberg's frameworks were roughly equivalent.

 

You are free to believe in the supernatural, but I fail to see how QM backs your assertions up? Now, if your supernatural hypothesis were to predict and tell me how to create robust chemical bonds using anti bonding orbitals, I'd be all ears.

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Here is my definition of supernatural. If this doesn't work for some reason, then help me refine it.

 

Apparently there is randomness at the quantum level. This randomness can probably trickle-up through systems that are sensitive to small changes. Examples of these systems might be: weather, mentally unstable brains, ... So in some cases there is meaningful randomness in our daily lives.

 

Probably many atheists would accept this idea about randomness. Now we add the idea that something supernatural can control this randomness.

 

For example:

- the idea of a soul outside our brains that somehow makes choices and should be rewarded or punished in the afterlife

- the idea of a god that can be influenced to provide good harvest when people make the proper offerings

- the idea that a person can get supernatural guidance by divination (looking at tea leaves or whatever)

 

Magic and ESP seem a little trickier to me. Many people describe magic as an ESP-like force that we don't fully understand yet. The problem with this view is that we should be able to confirm ESP experimentally, but I haven't read about anything that persuades me.

 

I think it is easier for supernatural to evade scientific experiments if there are supernatural actors with free will that prefer to hide themselves from the unworthy skeptics.

 

Maybe these are just random thoughts. Sometimes I worry about these things and. Maybe it is mental illness.

 

So I hoped that somebody might have some ideas to help me debunk these worries. smile.png

 

 

 

The human grief process is:

 

1 Denial

2 Anger

3 Bargaining

4 Depression

5 Acceptance

 

 

This is natural instinct.  It is the way our brains evolved.  But what if there is nobody to bargain with?  We instinctively desire to bargain anyway.  Bargaining is how humans survive so we want to do it even if there is nobody to listen.

 

 

That is the source of our religion.  When your child is sick you want to bargain with some power that can save your child - even if there isn't any.  If you had a sudden brush with death you want to thank the power responsible even if it doesn't exist.  It is how human brains work.

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How does a probabilistic solution infer the supernatural? You understand we can look at QM in ways other than wave mechanics? Linear algebra (matrices) was used by Heisenberg to formulate QM. However, Schrodinger's wave equation was a bit more intuitive to the physicists of that time who were used to wave equations. In reality, both Schrodinger's and Heisenberg's frameworks were roughly equivalent.

 

You are free to believe in the supernatural, but I fail to see how QM backs your assertions up? Now, if your supernatural hypothesis were to predict and tell me how to create robust chemical bonds using anti bonding orbitals, I'd be all ears.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not inferring supernatural from QM; I am trying to reconcile supernatural with natural and QM seems to provide the interface. I already believe in supernatural due to experiencing it (even though I know that psychosis is a more sensible explanation).

 

It seems like you are hearing what you expect to hear instead of what I am saying. Maybe this can't make sense to somebody unless they have experienced psychosis?

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The human grief process is:

 

1 Denial

2 Anger

3 Bargaining

4 Depression

5 Acceptance

 

 

This is natural instinct.  It is the way our brains evolved.  But what if there is nobody to bargain with?  We instinctively desire to bargain anyway.  Bargaining is how humans survive so we want to do it even if there is nobody to listen.

 

 

That is the source of our religion.  When your child is sick you want to bargain with some power that can save your child - even if there isn't any.  If you had a sudden brush with death you want to thank the power responsible even if it doesn't exist.  It is how human brains work.

That's something I never heard of before, but it makes sense. I have to think about it some more.

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Just to be clear, you admit the psychosis you experienced is a better explanation but you still believe the supernatural is the actual explanation? Additionally, you are attempting to use an incomplete understanding of QM to reconcile all of this?

 

I don't understand why it's so difficult to admit that we just don't know, we just don't have answers?

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Just to be clear, you admit the psychosis you experienced is a better explanation but you still believe the supernatural is the actual explanation? Additionally, you are attempting to use an incomplete understanding of QM to reconcile all of this?

 

I don't understand why it's so difficult to admit that we just don't know, we just don't have answers?

I think you are beginning to understand me now, so that's good. smile.png

 

What you don't understand yet is the following:

 

(1) The reason I can't simply admit that I don't know and drop the question is because I had psychosis. Before I had psychosis, I was an apathetic atheist with other interests.

 

(2) The reason I can't fully accept psychosis is because my experience and reaction was different than most people who have had psychosis. Apparently most people with psychosis have less problem accepting the explanation than me. The duration of the symptoms was different than any type of psychosis I can find.

 

(3) Another reason I can't fully accept psychosis is because some experiences (me and others in my extended family) seemed to contain information and physical results that made them seem to originate outside that person.

 

Oh well, I don't think I can explain these things unfortunately.

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my experience and reaction was different than most people who have had psychosis

 

My psychologist tells me that the way clinicians view mental illness has changed over the years.  In the past, diagnostic labels were the focus.  Nowadays, the focus is on getting to know the individual, because each of us is unique and our particular package of symptoms will be different to anyone else's.  It is quite hard for me to get him to even talk in terms of diagnostic labels.  If my psychologist was talking to you, I am sure he would tell you that your experience is unique and that it doesn't matter if most other people with psychosis seem to have similar experiences to each other, that seem different to yours.

 

I know it is hard for you to accept your experiences as psychosis.  It is very hard when you feel you can't trust your own mind to know what is real and what isn't.  Hopefully if you can find a competent, secular psychologist you can work through these issues with them.

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DL, none of us can help you debunk the supernatural.  I'm going to go ahead and give a different piece of advice for you. 

 

Explore it if it piques your interest.  Why not?  Joining a neo-pagan group?  Sure.  The other folks here like FTNZ already said that the burden's on the ones making the claim, so why not see their reasons for it.

 

And regardless of whether or not they can prove their claims has little bearing on your mindset. 

 

If a being were to suddenly appear before me (malevolent or benevolent, doesn't matter) I've chosen to live my life as full and as honest as I can.  Believing something to be real does not excuse me from any subsequent actions that I take.  If yaweh came at me right now and say "repent, sinner!" I would tell him to fuck off and call him out on his murder and rape.  Whatever he decides to do after that is on him, I want to live my life true to my sense of integrity.

 

That example can be with vishnu, allah, a yet unknown god, some being like the energy cloud Melvar from Futurama, anything. 

 

The main problem I have with christianity is that it's been proven to be debunked long ago.  Christians love saying "you can't prove god doesn't exist!" but they're lying when they say that, substituting a deist's unknown god when they really mean their god.  Yes, we can prove yeshitwa doesn't exist because we have historical evidence of the book's dubious compilations, its physical impossibilities, the outright lies contained within the texts.  And still they have the gall and lie to your face proclaiming "yes it's all true."

 

Go ahead and explore the different supernatural claims.  To me that's not mental illness, that's curiosity.  The problem comes when one becomes dishonest and claim x or y is true without anything to back it up.

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DL, none of us can help you debunk the supernatural.  I'm going to go ahead and give a different piece of advice for you. 

 

Explore it if it piques your interest.  Why not?  Joining a neo-pagan group?  Sure.  The other folks here like FTNZ already said that the burden's on the ones making the claim, so why not see their reasons for it.

There are a few reasons I have not tried a neo-pagan forum:

- I've noticed neo-pagans tend to obfuscate and hedge everything they say about supernatural.

- Many neo-pagans seem to enjoy worrying outsiders (I already worry enough smile.png )

- Even if some neo-pagan members can show how my experiences are not consistent with their understanding of supernatural, I will probably suspect that these members are simply unaware of the truth.

 

But maybe I will try that eventually. I have tried a spiritual forum, but people seemed to be blissfully unconcerned with reality. (However they were helpful when I asked them about meditation.)

 

And regardless of whether or not they can prove their claims has little bearing on your mindset. 

 

If a being were to suddenly appear before me (malevolent or benevolent, doesn't matter) I've chosen to live my life as full and as honest as I can.  Believing something to be real does not excuse me from any subsequent actions that I take.  If yaweh came at me right now and say "repent, sinner!" I would tell him to fuck off and call him out on his murder and rape.  Whatever he decides to do after that is on him, I want to live my life true to my sense of integrity.

 

That example can be with vishnu, allah, a yet unknown god, some being like the energy cloud Melvar from Futurama, anything.

Yes and no for me. Sometimes I think it's very important that I become enlightened in some way - like that spiritual beings are trying to guide me somewhere. If I ignore them then I will kick myself after I die for being too cowardly to hear them.

 

Lately I've begun to accept that even if there is some truth I will not absorb it. The best I can do is to be nicer to things around me (people, animals, nature).

 

The main problem I have with christianity is that it's been proven to be debunked long ago.  Christians love saying "you can't prove god doesn't exist!" but they're lying when they say that, substituting a deist's unknown god when they really mean their god.  Yes, we can prove yeshitwa doesn't exist because we have historical evidence of the book's dubious compilations, its physical impossibilities, the outright lies contained within the texts.  And still they have the gall and lie to your face proclaiming "yes it's all true."

I can't arue with that. smile.png

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"Yes and no for me. Sometimes I think it's very important that I become enlightened in some way - like that spiritual beings are trying to guide me somewhere. If I ignore them then I will kick myself after I die for being too cowardly to hear them." -DL

 

Yes, I think we're in agreement.  I was only trying to say that regardless of any manifestation of any kind of being, the best path I think would be to stay true with one's values. 

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My browser won't do quotes today for some reason.

Roz has a lot of wisdom here. Go explore the supernatural if you really want to. The pagans / Wiccans are pretty tame about it. Not all of them even do spells and things. They (me speaking as an atheist) poetically attribute natural phenomena to the supernatural. I don't know if they will so much have answers, though. Their way isn't so much a dogmatic issuing of answers to all of life's problems. And they have no multi-million-dollar apologists.

But you might find it fascinating.

Or see if you can find some old Art Bell recordings, and play with that some. You'll at least be amused, and at most you'll be more informed on how other people see things. Look at people on here: not everyone has gone atheistic. There's a whole board on here dedicated to ex-Christian spirituality.

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My browser won't do quotes today for some reason.

Roz has a lot of wisdom here. Go explore the supernatural if you really want to. The pagans / Wiccans are pretty tame about it. Not all of them even do spells and things. They (me speaking as an atheist) poetically attribute natural phenomena to the supernatural. I don't know if they will so much have answers, though. Their way isn't so much a dogmatic issuing of answers to all of life's problems. And they have no multi-million-dollar apologists.

But you might find it fascinating.

Or see if you can find some old Art Bell recordings, and play with that some. You'll at least be amused, and at most you'll be more informed on how other people see things. Look at people on here: not everyone has gone atheistic. There's a whole board on here dedicated to ex-Christian spirituality.

I may try a pagan forum. My problem is the paranoia.

 

For example, I often have wandering thoughts, forgetfulness, and a tendency to stare at my keyboard or patterns on the wall - a little like when you are trying to remember a train of thought but you can't. I'll realize what I'm doing and then a few seconds later I go right back to this confused state. This might be blood sugar or depression or even negative symptoms of psychosis.

 

So let's say I join a pagan forum and start chatting with some friendly pagans. Then the next morning I find that I'm having trouble concentrating. My paranoia kicks-in and I start suspecting that one of those rascally pagans is draining my life force through ESP. It's sounds silly, but I know from past experience that this is how my mind works.

 

The same thing happens if I start reading about alternate religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism. I start getting paranoid. The last time I tried to read about Hinduism I lost the book in my sofa. I started worrying that somebody had magically teleported the book. Then my insurance agent included a bible quote in his email that made me worry that he was a prophet shaking his finger at me for reading about Hinduism.

 

It is very very silly, but that's the way it is. smile.png

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Being in a pagan forum doesn't mean you have to cut off your ties with friends / family who you can talk to if you're feeling paranoia.  Hell you have us to talk to about it :)  

 

One of these days I'd like to see a pagan meetup myself to see what they're like.  

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One of these days I'd like to see a pagan meetup myself to see what they're like.  

 

 

As a group, I love Pagans the most! Sure, some believe some incredibly lame woo, but some don't at all. Either way, they are honest, fun loving and make for friends you can count on regardless of your own particular beliefs.
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Directionless, you mentioned blood sugar.  Do you have diabetes, and if not, do you get annual blood tests to screen for it and other things?  

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Directionless, you mentioned blood sugar.  Do you have diabetes, and if not, do you get annual blood tests to screen for it and other things?

I keep wondering if my blood sugar is unstable. The last time I went to the doctor I asked them to test my blood sugar but they said it was fine. It was not a fasting blood test, so I was suspicious that it might not be good enough. I asked my sister who is a family doctor and she said the test they used was good enough.

 

Lately I've been trying to fast from calories until evening. If I wait until evening after I have exercised then I don't seem to feel so bad. Also the fasting seems to help with stress and depression a little bit.

 

I've only been fasting a few weeks so these effects may be my imagination.

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Directionless, you mentioned blood sugar.  Do you have diabetes, and if not, do you get annual blood tests to screen for it and other things?

I keep wondering if my blood sugar is unstable. The last time I went to the doctor I asked them to test my blood sugar but they said it was fine. It was not a fasting blood test, so I was suspicious that it might not be good enough. I asked my sister who is a family doctor and she said the test they used was good enough.

 

Lately I've been trying to fast from calories until evening. If I wait until evening after I have exercised then I don't seem to feel so bad. Also the fasting seems to help with stress and depression a little bit.

 

I've only been fasting a few weeks so these effects may be my imagination.

 

 

If you don't eat regularly then your blood sugar will be unstable.  Easiest way to fix that is to eat 3 healthy meals and up to 3 healthy snacks a day.  The blood test they used was probably HbA1C, which indicates how stable your blood sugar has been over a 2 month period.  It will be normal unless you have pre-diabetes or diabetes.  Everyone over 40 should have this and certain other screening blood tests annually.

 

I'm not aware of any evidence that fasting helps with stress or depression, in fact the available evidence suggests it would make things worse.  Loss of appetite can be a symptom of depression too.

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If you don't eat regularly then your blood sugar will be unstable.  Easiest way to fix that is to eat 3 healthy meals and up to 3 healthy snacks a day.  The blood test they used was probably HbA1C, which indicates how stable your blood sugar has been over a 2 month period.  It will be normal unless you have pre-diabetes or diabetes.  Everyone over 40 should have this and certain other screening blood tests annually.

 

I'm not aware of any evidence that fasting helps with stress or depression, in fact the available evidence suggests it would make things worse.  Loss of appetite can be a symptom of depression too.

Thanks. There are a few websites that advocate the health benefits of fasting, and some of them mention fasting to treat depression. I can't find them right now, because they were a little hard to find through google.

 

The argument was that the loss of appetite sometimes experienced during depression is actually part of the body's attempt to heal itself from depression. Also, fasting gives the body a break from the daily grind of processing food and it improves the immunes system.

 

I suspect fasting isn't discussed much as a treatment for depression because many people can develop eating disorders.

 

I got the idea for fasting when I looked back on my Christian period. The Eastern Orthodox have official fasting days that amount to about 50% of the calendar. While I was going to church, I didn't exercise every day like I do today, but I don't remember being severely depressed. I didn't feel good or happy, but I was able to function. The one time I remember feeling pretty good was during a two week fast where I ate one meal every 48 hours and went for a walk every evening. Usually I felt crummy while fasting, but that particular fast seemed to be just the right balance. So that gave me the idea.

 

Also, I had noticed feeling crummy every time I ate a meal or snack unless it was in the evening after exercising.

 

I don't know. Fasting seems to make me feel better sometimes. Other times it is difficult. I give myself a break every few days, because I've noticed I can become obsessive about fasting. I try not to eat too much even when I'm not fasting, but I eat light meals like a biscuit or a coke to cheer myself up on weekends.

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