Double A7 Christian Question Avoidance

[moanareina]

lol bible is wrong God doesnt exist ok sure but based on what kind of evidence could go back in time  rewrite the bible that will fit the evidence you are looking for? if none then not only there is no evidence but there wont EVER BE any evidence if that is everyones line of logic

 

OMFG really, lol or better lmfao

With your line of logic you can get on a stage and make tons of money by making people laugh.

lol.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

i know right you tell them Moanaerina These people have no clue that they are talking about ROFL  your cool lets hang out some time sees you in the distance :::waves frantically::::

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Folks this is a loss cause

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

what have we learned in class today?....that if you meet me in person you wouldnt classify me as loving but as a maniac

[Neverlandrut]

lol bible is wrong God doesnt exist ok sure but based on what kind of evidence could go back in time rewrite the bible that will fit the evidence you are looking for? if none then not only there is no evidence but there wont EVER BE any evidence if that is everyones line of logic

Precisely! No evidence = no rational reason to accept it as true. You're trying to paint us into the same picture that you are in. We aren't looking for evidence that it's true. We know it isn't because all the evidence is to the contrary. Evidence is the reason we stopped believing. We ask Christians to present evidence so we can show them they don't have any, not any that supports their super natural claims.

 

To comment on the hitler thing:

 

Do you not agree that what hitler did was morally wrong? I'll refrain from the word "evil" because it isn't necessary. Do you agree that there is evidence that hitler did those morally wrong things? If you say yes, why do you not apply that same reasoning to the killings god commanded in the OT? He commanded infanticide and genicide on massive scales simply because those people were in the way of his real estate transaction. If the bible is true, then those stories are evidence that god commanded things that are morally wrong. If you deny this, then you are hypocritical for not applying the same moral reasoning to those acts that you would if they were committed by anyone else.

[zanOTK]

Is it too late for me to ask some questions, Steaksauce?

 

I feel, as someone who is still religious after leaving Christianity and who actually still believes the Bible has truth in it, I may have a slightly different perspective than most of the posters here.

 

So, here's my first one:

Why don't you accept the Quran?

 

The Bible was written over the course of thousands of years, sometimes by people who didn't really agree with eachother (Peter and Paul are good examples: both claimed to be the apostle to the gentiles, Paul pushed giving up all the Jewish laws, while Peter still followed the ones not abrogated by Christ), and was not even agreed upon before the Church (that being the Orthodox/Catholic Church, pre-Schism) decided they had to have all the "correct" books in one place. And to this day not all Christians agree on which books are correct!

 

The Quran is one book, composed within a single lifetime and then written down, which actually agrees with the Bible in many ways. Such as: its strict monotheism, Jesus being a Prophet (He said himself that He was), the virgin birth, that God made an agreement with the Israelites, that they didn't hold up their end, that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and so on.

 

All of these things are also in the Bible. So why do you say the Bible is valid and the Quran is not? Is it because you believe Muhammad is a false Prophet? On what grounds? The Bible itself has very specific ways you're suppossed to test a person to see if they're from God. And Muhammad passes them all, at least He passes them just as much as any Biblical Prophet.

Miracles, a call to worship the monotheistic God of Abraham, prophecies which were fulfilled, and He stated Jesus came in the flesh and was sent by God.

 

So, why not the Quran?

 

(Quick note: I'm not a Muslim and I'm not trying to convert Steaksauce to Islam. I am actually curious why he doesn't accept the Quran as valid if he accepts the Bible as valid.)

 

I'll have more questions for you after you answer this one.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Thanks for asking quite simple really, i wasnt convinced to christianity becasue of the bible itself, so not quran or any book could convince me it was how God was there for me is what attributed to my change of heart. In a nutshell i did not choose the bible because it sounds better or nice. It chose christianity because i was impacted eprsonally in real life.

 

but if you are looking for traditional reasons here is a list

 

1. Quran or any religion for that matter doesnt have offer a solution for the issue of sin, the inherent urge for us to disobey God, i believe Jesus is the only one to erase our sin and restore our relationship with God not anyone else, seeing how he is the one that died for humanity and grabbed the keys from hell

 

2 John 3 31 “He has come from above and is greater than anyone else. We are of the earth, and we speak of earthly things, but he has come from heaven and is greater than anyone else.  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

 3. To avoid circular reasoning, the first question we must ask is: how would we know if God communicated something in the first place? Well, God would have to communicate in a manner that people could understand, but that also means that people could make up their own messages and simply claim that they came from God. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE WORLD TODAY  So, it seems reasonable to think that if God wanted to authenticate the bible in a manner that could not be duplicated by mere humans For example, in Genesis 12:7, God promises that the land of Israel was to be for Abraham and his descendants. In 1948 Israel was returned back to the Jewish people for the second time in history. This may not seem so astonishing until you realize that no nation in the history of the world has been scattered from its homeland and returned! Israel has done it twice.

 

4. Another Prophecy In Ezekiel 26 we can see in astonishing detail how the city of Tyre was to be destroyed, how it would be torn down, and how its debris would be thrown into the sea. When Alexander the Great marched on that area, he encountered a group of people holed up in a tower on an island off the coast near there. He could not cross the sea, so he could not fight those in the tower. Rather than wait them out, the proud conqueror had his army throw stones into the sea to build a land bridge to the tower. It worked. His army crossed the sea and overthrew the occupants of the stronghold. But where did he get so much stone? The rocks that were used for the land bridge were the leftover rubble from the city of Tyre . . . its stones cast into the sea!
 

 

5. Muslim says they are the true religion which all religions claim the same thing but If the Quran is really from God, then it should at least be able to accurately report what Christians believe It cant be trusted. it makes judgments against Christians for believing things that they do not (nor have they ever) believed. For example, the Quran teaches that Christians believe the Trinity is the Father, the Mother (Mary), and the Son (Sura 5:73-75, 116) and the Quran also teaches that Christians believe that God had sex with Mary to have a son (Suras 2:116; 6:100-101;
 

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

also Joseph Smith, the author of the Book of Mormon, tried to do some miracles such as prophecy (a test for a true prophet in Deuteronomy 18:21-22) but failed several times. He foretold of Christ's second coming in History of the Church (HC) 2:382. Joseph Smith preached that the coming of the Lord would be in 56 years (about 1891). The second coming did not occur in 1891, and the Mormon Church does not claim that it did. Nor has it occurred since.

[zanOTK]

There are those that would contest that the Second Coming has not happened. I'm not supporting Joseph Smith, as I do not believe he was a true Prophet (for various reasons). But as a Bahá'í, I believe Bahá'u'lláh is the second coming of Christ. True, He didn't come in a way Christians expected. But then, Jesus did not come in the way the Jews expected their Messiah, either.

 

Thank you for your reply, I will be back later to respond to the rest of your points.

[Ravenstar]

"1. Quran or any religion for that matter doesnt have offer a solution for the issue of sin, the inherent urge for us to disobey God, i believe Jesus is the only one to erase our sin and restore our relationship with God not anyone else, seeing how he is the one that died for humanity and grabbed the keys from hell"

 

I had to stop here… First, 'Quran' is not a religion, it's the holy book of Islam, which is an offshoot of Judaism just as Christianity is. Muslim call Jews and Christians, "the people of the book".. acknowledging the connection… Their God is the same one you have.. The God of Abraham and Moses. They venerate the Torah as well and all the prophets, including Jesus. 

 

Islam focuses on Abraham (Arabic: إبراهيم‎ʾIbrāhīm) more than either Judaism or Christianity. There is, nevertheless an important difference with the other Abrahamic faiths: where Judaism holds that one becomes a descendant of Abraham through birth, and Christianity that one becomes a descendant through faith, Islam holds that descent is unimportant – Abraham, in other words, is not the father of the believing community, but a link in the chain of prophets that begins with Adam and culminates in Mohammad.^[22]

Ibrāhīm is mentioned in 35 chapters of the Quran, more often than any other biblical personage apart from Moses.^[23]He is called both a hanif (monotheist) and muslim (one who surrenders to God),^[24] and Muslims regard him as a prophet and patriarch, the archetype of the perfect Muslim, and the revered reformer of the Kaaba in Mecca.^[25]

Islamic traditions consider Ibrāhīm (Abraham) the first Pioneer of Islam (which is also called millat Ibrahim, the "religion of Abraham"), and that his purpose and mission throughout his life was to proclaim the Oneness of God. In Islam, he is referred to as "Ibrahim El Khalil" (إبراهيم الخليل), meaning "Abraham the Friend [of Allah]". When Ibrahim (Abraham)was asked for sacrifice, he took Ismā'īl (Ishmael) to sacrifice. When he was about to use the knife, God placed a sheep under his hand. From that day onward, every Eid al-Adha (عيد الأضحى ‘Īd al-’Aḍḥá) once a year many Muslims around the world slaughter a sheep to follow the path of Ibrāhīm (Abraham) that is called Qurban ("sacrifice").^[26] 

^Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

 

ISLAM means, literally 'submission to God'. Sounds like a 'solution' to me.

 

^{Please educate yourself before spouting off about things you are obviously ignorant in.}

 

^{I, for one, have never had an inherent urge to disobey God. Just a burning desire for truth.}

 

^{Sorry my dear, but we don't speak the same language. Stick around, you may learn something.}

[zanOTK]

Ravenstar said a lot that I planned to, although I wasn't going to question your education or say you're spouting things off. Your knowledge of Islam is about standard in my experience. I did find your statement that the Quran is a religion odd. That's like saying the Torah is a religion.

 

Additionally, Islam does speak of sin, and has a method of dealing with it: repent and change your ways. This is, actually, exactly what the Bible says to do:

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" - Acts 3:19

 

"yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us." - 2nd Corinthians 7:9

 

In response to beliefs condemned by the Quran: I urge you to study Christian heresies. What you claim is not and never was believed by Christians was, in fact, believed by certain groups of Christians at the time.

 

I will return to respond to the rest of your points tomorrow.

 

Again, my thanks. And my thanks to Raven for educating you on the Quran. I simply could not have done it any better.

[zanOTK]

It's interesting that you use John, seeing as how it was considered a Gnostic gospel at one point and almost didn't make it into the Bible. No matter, it does not negate my point. I'll show you why:

 

If we take John 3:31 to refer to Jesus' person alone, then the followers of Abraham, Moses, and ALL Prophets before Jesus would be unable to "come to the Father."

 

This can easily be solved, though. The Gospel of John is a very mystical text, and it begins by connecting the person of Jesus to a pre-existent Logos (Word or Reason).

 

There are several times when Jesus seems to be disagreeing with Himself in the Gospels. Such as when He says He is not good, because only God is good. And then He also says, speaking of Himself, that God has come among the people. Which makes it sound like He is God. Unless, in reality, when He says things like that, He is speaking as the Logos and not Jesus.

 

Now John 3:31 makes sense! It is the Logos, currently being made available through Jesus, that is the Way, Truth, and Life. And thus Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life. But the same can be said any time God speaks through a human being, a Prophet. They are the Way, Truth, and Life. No man comes to God except through Them.

 

Muhammad also said "I am Jesus" in the Quran. What could this mean? He is clearly not Jesus, He's Muhammad! The statement makes sense, though, when we accept that each of God's Prophets has that same, pre-existent, Logos.

 

Points 3-4 are about prophecy. As already stated, this applies to the Quran as much as the Bible. As well as the Bahá'í Writings, actually. If you expect to use prophecy as proof, then you would have to accept the Quran and the Bahá'í Writings. Since you don't, I have to ignore your use of prophecy to support the Bible.

 

Do you have any more reasons?