Exploring Buddhism

[Deidre]

It seems there's no escaping it. hahaha ^^

hahaha! wth?

[Antlerman]

Yes, you are very intuitive to say this, and at the right time, it seems. I guess I still have some ''hang ups'' with some parts of Christianity, a residue that I can't shower off. lol I view all other spiritual philosophies through that lens. ''I refused to let the Christian system falsely claim ownership over all things spiritual.'' Yep, well said. Can an atheist still be...spirital? Idk. You're not a theist or a deist, are you an atheist, may I ask?

For years I identified as a "spiritual atheist", but I find the term somewhat distracting at this point. I'm an atheist in regard to a mythic-literal view of "God". But that's just one part of the equation, so I don't use the term much any more. I really don't identify with any "ism".

 

You know? I'm going to experiment this weekend with the main mantra. Just to see how I experience it. I take yoga classes, and there are some meditative qualities to this class I'm involved in, but nothing like this. Different than Christian prayer, I think this type of meditation is going to empty me out, as opposed to Christian prayer...being burdening? I don't know how to explain that.

If you're going to try something like this, I'll make a suggestion. In any meditation one's intention is central to it. Part of that is creating a space set aside for meditation practice. I recommend finding a quite, controlled space. Maybe light a candle at the beginning as part of it. Sit up strait, on a strait back chair, or better still on the floor cross-legged if you can with your back straight. Take a moment to focus on your breath and relax. Then enter into a simple repetition of the mantra, focusing on compassion. As the mind wanders off doing its normal thing, just bring it back gently with understanding that's what the mind does. It's all about giving yourself permission to be in that place. Don't freak out when your mind goes crazy being asked to be still. It's normal. Try simply telling it, "I'm just taking a moment to be still. We can get back to thinking about things later." That was a trick that worked miracles for me at first.

 

That's so cool! What a neat experience of channeling through music. Thank you so very much for sharing a lot of your own experiences with me, here. It's been fun learning from you.

I did put "channeling" in quotes. It's really just part of inhabiting music as a musician. I'm very happy if anything I share from my own experience helps you in yours. As I said before, take what works for you. It's very individual, but with some commonalities we can all draw from.

[Antlerman]

You know? I'm going to experiment this weekend with the main mantra. Just to see how I experience it.

I thought to come back to this for you with an additional recommendation. There's the wonderful CD that Deva Premal did with the Gyuto monks of Tibet that includes the compassion mantra. I own and use the CD sometimes in meditation, chanting with them on it as I sit on my cushion. I highly recommend purchasing it and owning it yourself. She does a wonderful treatment of the mantras with music surrounding them and flowing. The booklet explains the mantras. The Compassion mantra in on this recording of the whole CD at 4:06.

 

 

 

BTW, I'd like to add here that I know and am friends with those who are Gyuto monks. I recently had the rare opportunity and pleasure to spend the day with the former teacher teacher and close friend of the Dali Lama, talking with him for a couple hours in my car as I drove him to a home his was staying at here, spending the afternoon at the lake there, playing the piano in the home as the monks toured the home and grounds, and having dinner with him. It was quite an experience as he is a high lama in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. It had quite an impact on me following that. He's gone back to India now. Interesting how things like this open for you unexpectedly like that.

 

 

Different than Christian prayer, I think this type of meditation is going to empty me out, as opposed to Christian prayer...being burdening? I don't know how to explain that.

I think what you may be saying is that it is more about opening yourself to experience love and compassion and truth, as opposed to looking for answers and asking for things typical to the petitionary prayer style common to most Christians. This is meditation, and it's about experiencing the Truth and Beauty within you. It's selfless in this way, as opposed to self-facing asking God to fix you. It's more like taking a bath, than standing in line at the welfare office.

[Deidre]

Diedre, Alan Watts is a very good explainer of Buddhism--you can search for him on youtube and I think you might find it interesting. He was also an ex-Christian (former Episcopalian minister). Here's a start: 

Oh my gosh, this is absolutely amazing. I finally had the time today to listen, and think it was done so well, explained so well. Between this and Antlerman, I've decided that this is a path I want to explore in its entirety. I understand the reasons behind certain disciplines, and to strive towards nirvana? I never thought that would be possible, for the 'idea' of a type of nirvana in Christianity, is illustrated very differently. In Christianity, nirvana is never anything any human being can actually achieve. In the video he states that to reach nirvana, that will lead you to being compassionate. That Buddhism isn't so much concerned with being good, but rather being compassionate. I can't thank you enough for this vid, Orbit!

 

''We are the cosmos...'' How beautiful is that??

[Deidre]

 

You know? I'm going to experiment this weekend with the main mantra. Just to see how I experience it.

I thought to come back to this for you with an additional recommendation. There's the wonderful CD that Deva Premal did with the Gyuto monks of Tibet that includes the compassion mantra. I own and use the CD sometimes in meditation, chanting with them on it as I sit on my cushion. I highly recommend purchasing it and owning it yourself. She does a wonderful treatment of the mantras with music surrounding them and flowing. The booklet explains the mantras. The Compassion mantra in on this recording of the whole CD at 4:06.

 

 

 

BTW, I'd like to add here that I know and am friends with those who are Gyuto monks. I recently had the rare opportunity and pleasure to spend the day with the former teacher teacher and close friend of the Dali Lama, talking with him for a couple hours in my car as I drove him to a home his was staying at here, spending the afternoon at the lake there, playing the piano in the home as the monks toured the home and grounds, and having dinner with him. It was quite an experience as he is a high lama in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. It had quite an impact on me following that. He's gone back to India now. Interesting how things like this open for you unexpectedly like that.

 

 

Different than Christian prayer, I think this type of meditation is going to empty me out, as opposed to Christian prayer...being burdening? I don't know how to explain that.

I think what you may be saying is that it is more about opening yourself to experience love and compassion and truth, as opposed to looking for answers and asking for things typical to the petitionary prayer style common to most Christians. This is meditation, and it's about experiencing the Truth and Beauty within you. It's selfless in this way, as opposed to self-facing asking God to fix you. It's more like taking a bath, than standing in line at the welfare office.

 

haha I like your explanation, last line. What did you think of the vid clip Orbit posted?

 

I will listen to the vid clip you posted here, and can't thank you enough for helping me to understand Buddhism on a more practical scale. I'm excited to go further, now. I'm 'ready,' if that makes sense. I'm a little scared, for some reason. For to 'let go' of all, my own ego even, I wonder if I can accomplish this. I don't consider myself egostisical, so to speak, but my ego drives the bus of many of my decisions, I'm realizing. It is time for a new way of thinking, and I'm ready. I will let you know what I think about the video later today/tomorrow.

 

Hugs Orbit and Antlerman, and for everyone else here who has helped me understand this a bit better.

[Orbit]

 

Diedre, Alan Watts is a very good explainer of Buddhism--you can search for him on youtube and I think you might find it interesting. He was also an ex-Christian (former Episcopalian minister). Here's a start: 

Oh my gosh, this is absolutely amazing. I finally had the time today to listen, and think it was done so well, explained so well. Between this and Antlerman, I've decided that this is a path I want to explore in its entirety. I understand the reasons behind certain disciplines, and to strive towards nirvana? I never thought that would be possible, for the 'idea' of a type of nirvana in Christianity, is illustrated very differently. In Christianity, nirvana is never anything any human being can actually achieve. In the video he states that to reach nirvana, that will lead you to being compassionate. That Buddhism isn't so much concerned with being good, but rather being compassionate. I can't thank you enough for this vid, Orbit!

 

''We are the cosmos...'' How beautiful is that??

 

I'm glad you liked it. watercourseway on youtube has a ton of Alan Watts. He did write an autobiography, but doesn't really focus on the process of de-consversion so much as he talks about what led him TO Buddhism. He did a great PBS TV show in the late 50s on Eastern thought that's excellent if you can find it on youtube. I would search "Alan Watts KQED" for that.

[Deidre]

Deidre,

Best wishes to you on your new path.

I'll be interested to know what your impressions and views are as you journey within.

Peace,

Human

Thank you, dear Human I'm ready. Have been on the fence with it, but what am I waiting for. I plan to follow the disciplines as well, and see where it leads. Hope you are doing well, this day. <3

[Deidre]

 

 

Deidre,

Best wishes to you on your new path.

I'll be interested to know what your impressions and views are as you journey within.

Peace,

Human

Thank you, dear Human I'm ready. Have been on the fence with it, but what am I waiting for. I plan to follow the disciplines as well, and see where it leads. Hope you are doing well, this day. <3

 

Thanks, Deidre. I think I saw myself a couple times while I was rummaging around inside there today.

 

we're gonna make it. haha

[Antlerman]

I'm excited to go further, now. I'm 'ready,' if that makes sense. I'm a little scared, for some reason. For to 'let go' of all, my own ego even, I wonder if I can accomplish this.

Of course you can let go of the ego. You already do it all the time in various moments. Everyone does, such as those moments your forget about yourself and are absorbed in the moment, before the night sky, the glowing sunset, seeing into another with love alone. In those moment we experience a taste of that liberation, and we are at true peace. But those moments are fleeting for us and we fall back into our habitual self-reflexive thoughts.

 

Meditation is key to retraining how we think of ourselves, resting evermore in this awareness beyond egoic thought. The more we do this, the more it becomes the dominant set of eyes through which we see and experience the world, and the mode of our being in interaction with others and our own self.

 

I don't consider myself egostisical, so to speak, but my ego drives the bus of many of my decisions, I'm realizing.

Something to understand about the ego is that this is not the same thing as being 'egotistical'. Ego is simply "I". Being egotistical is simply a stage of development in building the ego which sees only itself and not the other. That is natural in early childhood development, and a problem in later ego development which should begin to incorporate the other into its own self awareness.

 

So ego itself is not a "problem'. I disagree with those who say the ego is "bad", or that we should get rid of it. That's like saying get rid of our bodies! What we need to do is not be stuck in egoic thought, which is the world seen and experienced by this mental construction of our self-identification that we see differentiates us from others; a child touches his body and says this is me, differentiating himself from the other; an adult looks to his personhood, his personality, his job, likes, dislikes, emotions, family, friend, social group, etc and says "this is me". To move beyond simple egoic identification does not rid you of ego. You don't want that! We need ego as part of socialization. It's a functional thing, just like our unique body is.

 

What needs to be transcended is exclusive identification with ego as the center of gravity of the "self". In early childhood, that center of gravity of the self was the body. As we developed that center of gravity shift to the ego, transcending, but also including body-identification as self. The body ceases to be the dominant point of self-identification, but it is included in our higher self-identification, now in the ego. And thus, in transegoic, or transpersonal growth, we move beyond those objects of self-identification in the ego. We move beyond it, transcending but including it into the next stage of our development, the next and newer center of gravity shifts upward, as it did previously in the earlier stages of growth.

 

What meditation practice does is it allows us to 'step out of' that egoic mind, of ideas of self, and to see the mind actually creating this. We become the observer of our ego. And as we become that observer of the ego, we are no longer the ego seeing itself! It's no longer that self-reflexive cycle we are embedded within and unable to see. It is no longer the reality of who we are, as we are now outside of it and observing it. Then the path becomes one of knowing who we are beyond the ego. The result is we loosen our grip our the ego and begin to move more freely in self-discovery. And that's where the path of integration begins.

 

You'll need to chew on that for awhile, but I think it will eventually help you.

 

It is time for a new way of thinking, and I'm ready. I will let you know what I think about the video later today/tomorrow.

 

Hugs Orbit and Antlerman, and for everyone else here who has helped me understand this a bit better.

Just remember, this is something you can already do naturally. This is just deliberately creating an environment for you to explore this as part of a disciplined exercise. It's like going to school to learn. Except you are you own teacher. The teacher you have yet to really meet and know in yourself whose been there all along.

[Deidre]

Hi Antlerman, I see what you're saying. I want to comment more, and will do so later.

 

As a quick note, I've meditated before, but definitely differently than last night. I have a long way to go to nirvana, we'll just say that.

It left me feeling sad, for some reason. Perhaps because I was focused on clearing my thoughts, and instead, thoughts of deconversion filled my mind. No matter how much I tried to rid my mind of these thoughts, they just prevailed. Perhaps, this means, like a cluttered room or house, I have to clean out the toxic thoughts that I didn't even realize were still present, before I can truly experience more beneficial aspects of meditation. Did you struggle in your beginning days with disciplined meditation?

[Deidre]

Thanks Matty. Yea, it will take patience, so we'll see how it goes. :-)

[Antlerman]

As a quick note, I've meditated before, but definitely differently than last night. I have a long way to go to nirvana, we'll just say that.

It left me feeling sad, for some reason. Perhaps because I was focused on clearing my thoughts, and instead, thoughts of deconversion filled my mind. No matter how much I tried to rid my mind of these thoughts, they just prevailed. Perhaps, this means, like a cluttered room or house, I have to clean out the toxic thoughts that I didn't even realize were still present, before I can truly experience more beneficial aspects of meditation. Did you struggle in your beginning days with disciplined meditation?

A lot of stuff comes up, but you have to realize this is a safe space to experience them. Try to simply observe them without judgment. You may be tempted to become embroiled in 'thinking about them', but just simply let them go without judgement. If you get hooked into them and pulled away, no big deal, just gently bring yourself back. There are no shortcuts to nirvana, so to speak. Nor is nirvana the end of anything, that once you've "arrived" you're now all done. No way. It's all a process, and the fact things came up is in fact a good sign.

[Deidre]

 

As a quick note, I've meditated before, but definitely differently than last night. I have a long way to go to nirvana, we'll just say that. :(It left me feeling sad, for some reason. Perhaps because I was focused on clearing my thoughts, and instead, thoughts of deconversion filled my mind. No matter how much I tried to rid my mind of these thoughts, they just prevailed. Perhaps, this means, like a cluttered room or house, I have to clean out the toxic thoughts that I didn't even realize were still present, before I can truly experience more beneficial aspects of meditation. Did you struggle in your beginning days with disciplined meditation?

A lot of stuff comes up, but you have to realize this is a safe space to experience them. Try to simply observe them without judgment. You may be tempted to become embroiled in 'thinking about them', but just simply let them go without judgement. If you get hooked into them and pulled away, no big deal, just gently bring yourself back. There are no shortcuts to nirvana, so to speak. Nor is nirvana the end of anything, that once you've "arrived" you're now all done. No way. It's all a process, and the fact things came up is in fact a good sign.

Thanks for this! Made me feel better, I guess, lol

Last night went better, so I will stick with it and going to buy some meditation "companions" on my kindle to help me.

I'll let you know how I continue on and appreciate all the feedback.

[Orbit]

When I meditate I hook into the same serenity that I had during "religious experiences". It just feels good to clear the mind. It will take practice for you to clear your mind, but if you keep at it I think you'll be pleased.

[Antlerman]

When I meditate I hook into the same serenity that I had during "religious experiences". It just feels good to clear the mind. It will take practice for you to clear your mind, but if you keep at it I think you'll be pleased.

The truth is it allows you to reclaim what were valid religious experiences, without all the mythological baggage attached.

[Orbit]

 

When I meditate I hook into the same serenity that I had during "religious experiences". It just feels good to clear the mind. It will take practice for you to clear your mind, but if you keep at it I think you'll be pleased.

The truth is it allows you to reclaim what were valid religious experiences, without all the mythological baggage attached.

 

I agree. I was attaching a meaning to the experience that really wasn't there. I am glad not to have lost that feeling, though.

[Deidre]

When I meditate I hook into the same serenity that I had during "religious experiences". It just feels good to clear the mind. It will take practice for you to clear your mind, but if you keep at it I think you'll be pleased.

Yea, orbit, I remember that serenity from prayer. Thank u for this.

 

So, I have a question...for anyone who wishes to reply...

 

This nirvana. If we experience it at some point on this path, does it mean we no longer care about ourselves?

[Orbit]

 

When I meditate I hook into the same serenity that I had during "religious experiences". It just feels good to clear the mind. It will take practice for you to clear your mind, but if you keep at it I think you'll be pleased.

Yea, orbit, I remember that serenity from prayer. Thank u for this.

 

So, I have a question...for anyone who wishes to reply...

 

This nirvana. If we experience it at some point on this path, does it mean we no longer care about ourselves?

 

It means that you lose the boundary between yourself, others, and the universe. You realize that you are everyone, a manifestation of the Brahman (life force), part of the universe, and not separate from it. That is an experience. You don't stop caring about yourself, rather you extend that care to all beings. Buddhism is also practical, however. You still have to live life on earth, though, and I use a book called the Tao Te Ching as a philosophy to guide my life.

[Deidre]

And while I'm thinking about it, one more question...

 

I've been working in corporate America since out of college. I make a very good living, but my job is far from a humanitarian effort. I'm looking at my life through the lens of Buddhist principles if you will, and idk. How does a person reconcile following capitalism and also this? I imagine one will win out.

 

 

I spend time keeping a journal since exploring Buddhism, and sometimes it is not so great the things that I've seen come to light about my life.

[Antlerman]

So, I have a question...for anyone who wishes to reply...

 

This nirvana. If we experience it at some point on this path, does it mean we no longer care about ourselves?

It's hard to explain. We care about ourselves, but in a way that's more like "caring" for ourselves. We love ourselves, because we are alive. I don't know how to express this. It's just that. It's an expression of ourselves. We care, because we are an expression of Life. There is no division, yet there is uniqueness. This is the nondual. We find ourselves, we become liberated from the small ego self, to the Authentic Self, and in that we find who we truly are, and live it. We find our life, by rising above the ego-self.

 

Don't expect everything, or anything. Just come to know yourself, and grow. It isn't anything you find that wasn't there the whole time. Don't be anxious about it.

[Orbit]

Buddhism is usually coupled with a life philosophy like Confucianism or Taoism that provides a way to live practically in the world. Unlike Christianity, there is no idea that you're supposed to bring all your ideals into your everyday life, like the Xtian idea of "being in the world but not of the world". Buddhism says "you cannot be separated from the world"--and instead gives life skills for surviving the mess that is life. For example, the Tao teaches you to be flexible when the currents of life, society, and the world change. The idea is to be wise about how you live your life, meaning long life, peace, and prosperity are goals.  Buddhism recognizes that you have to live in an imperfect world. The only thing Buddhism would say to capitalism is that you need a way to survive and participate in it if required, and still keep your sanity, offering meditation as the answer. That's my take, Antlerman may say something different.

[Deidre]

Thanks Orbit and Antlerman. Okay, I understand better. Guess I should just flow and as you say Antlerman, not be anxious about it.

Grateful for your advice.

 

I read about this but it's nice to be able to ask about the practicality of it from ppl who follow it

[Antlerman]

I always thought it meant that the "I" no longer exists, that one no longer conceived of one's self as separate and distinct.

It's a state where the illusion of form dissolves into Emptiness. The separate self is not seen. But to throw a wrench into this for all concerned, Nirvana is the first turning of the wheel of dharma. There are two other turnings of the wheel, the first being 'beyond' Nirvana into nonduality. The first turning of the wheel is the injunction to escape samsara and seek emptiness, or escape the world of form and rest in the formless, or flee the many and find the One. It seeks enlightenment to see that the world of form is an illusion, and we should rest in Emptiness. This first turning of the wheel is found in the teachings of Theravada Buddhism, which tends to be rather purist in form.

 

The second turning of the wheel of dharma is found in Mahayana Buddhism. Beginning with Nagarjuna, he realized that Emptiness or Nirvana, is itself a form of duality. Perceiving emptiness as the truth alone creates a dualistic separation itself from lived experience. He saw that beyond Nirvana was the nondual nature of reality. That is that form is emptiness and emptiness is form. We have to first encounter Emptiness, or Nirvana, to see that the world of form is none other than Emptiness in form. So you now have not only the injunction to escape the world of form into emptiness, but to then follow emptiness into form. So it's not just "from the many to the One", but "from the many to the One, and from the one to the many". We first see that the world without emptiness, a radical dualistic reality of separation is an illusion. But then we see the world of form as paradoxically both emptiness and form.

 

Then the third turning of the wheel of dharma is found in the Vajrayana schools of Buddhism, mainly in Tibetan Buddhism. This is tantric Buddhism. It's practices find emptiness in exploring the world of forum, rather than renouncing it. Since form is emptiness, to seek emptiness through form is to find both the nature of emptiness and form united.

 

A little academic, but it may be helpful to understand this when looking at what exactly Nirvana is about, and is it considered the "highest" goal or realization. It's not, actually.

 

That's such a transcendent state of awareness, it seems rare

"Seems" rare is just the problem. Rarifying this makes it nearly "unattainable" in the minds of people, which when made that becomes that. It's not rare at all, actually. People experience it all the time. I first did when I was 18.

 

-- or if achieved it does not necessarily remain constant.

It can through practice and development. It doesn't remain constant because we haven't learned how to integrate it into our "normal" states of consciousness.

 

One could experience an "aha" moment or live in nirvana for an extended period of time but later become self-conscious again, due to circumstances of life and effects from experiences.

I'll give it a better term. Because of the habits of mind. We can learn new habits.

 

That's my impression.

 

Someone please enlighten me further.

We are all already fully enlightened. It's really just a matter of awakening to that reality.

[Deidre]

Antlerman, that was a great explanation, thank you.

 

I'm struggling with some things now, and idk. I can't believe after all this time since deconverting, that I still miss the pretend refuge I had in prayer to a make believe deity.

 

Life is hard sometimes.

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, that was a great explanation, thank you.

 

I'm struggling with some things now, and idk. I can't believe after all this time since deconverting, that I still miss the pretend refuge I had in prayer to a make believe deity.

 

Life is hard sometimes.

I wouldn't see this as a problem, actually. Much of what I have found in my practice has in fact fulfilled what was lacking in my practice as a Christian. Remember, there is a baby in the bathwater. Again, this is about reclaiming what was good for you, and casting off what hindered. In my personal practice, I tend much more towards Mahayana and Vajrayana style practice, a lot towards Hinduism as well. In my meditation, it could be describe as very devotional, but through the vehicle of archetypal forms. This can be various deity forms which represent these higher ideal attributes, such as love and compassion, wisdom and clarity, and so forth. This may be the form of say, Tara, a Buddhist Bodhisattva.

 

One doesn't "believe" in them, in the sense of asking them to do stuff for you (though plenty people do at that stage of growth), or seeing them as literal entities you interact with "out there", or "up there". Rather what they are is an embrace of what is within you, projected "above" so to speak. One imagines this Bodhisattva with their mind, and embraces and merges themselves with these qualities that they represent. And I will add here, this does not need to take the forms of these deities, but it can any form that works for you to visualize - such as pure flowing water from a diamond mountain, or something like this. I often move in meditation in my mind to a place I am sitting in a field meditating beside a pure stream of water and snow falling on me, purifying my mind and body and heart. As you inhabit this space, in calm and still awareness, it's hard to describe what happens. Love flows from you to the world, and from the world to you in exchange. This action, this place, is very much the same sort of "good" experiences we had in our own religious past at the core of it, without all the garbage piles polluting that pure field, so to speak. That's the baby in the bathwater.

 

The scary part of this for many is that to feel that opening in themselves frightens them on some level such as self-mistrust. They fear getting sucked back into what we believed before. I can tell you, it's unlikely that would happen, because we already know too much to shift our thinking all the way back again. Instead, I liken it to reclaiming what was in fact good and true within it, and making it ours beyond the denial of reason which was the price we paid for it before. It's not necessary, nor good on any level, to pay that price! Really, its about learning to trust ourselves. But this is where having those who have experience moving beyond myth into a more mature spiritual practice comes in. It's not the same at all as prerational belief systems. It's very integrative with the rational, without having to kill the baby that was in the bathwater.