Thank You Ironhorse

[LongWayAround]

You don't know me.  We haven't interacted in any threads but I wanted to thank you.  

 

My deconversion is fairly recent and I am still working through what it means to no longer be a christian or to believe in any god and you have helped me along that journey.  As I read your interactions in the Lion's Den and see how you conduct yourself, it is a vivid reminder of why I left christianity.   The attitude that comes across in your posts is one of arrogance fueled by blind adherence to the company line.  I keep waiting to see a genuine answer from you when questions are posed; an answer where you show us what you, Ironhorse, really think but one never comes.  Instead, there is more of the same tired, copy and paste, logic twisting, word definition changing, fingers in the ears apologetics that we have all heard a million times.  That is, if you answer at all.

 

Something that surprised and disappointed me about you and some of the other christians in the lions den is the total lack of love and empathy that is expressed in your posts.  I know it is difficult to be kicked in the head by 15 different ex-christian posters at the same time but I expected more from someone who is claiming to emulate christ.  I can't say that I have ever read anything in a post from you that demonstrates that you care about the people on the ex-christian forums as human beings.  I am honestly unsure why you are even here.  It is hard for me to fathom that you think that your example might lead someone back to christianity or strengthen the faith of some christian that is lurking.  It comes off more as some sort of ego thing where you enjoy the attention you get here.

 

In short, thank you.  When I am working through the hard times associated with deconversion, it helps to watch a cosmos episode, read on an atheist website, or watch how you conduct yourself in the Lion's Den.  They all reinforce that I am now on the right path.

[florduh]

Thank you for illustrating an important reason this place exists and how it's working.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

It's too bad that you never got to meet the believer who used the name Heavenese. I'd say he was probably the most rational and friendly Christian to have ever shown up on this website. He was only here a little while before he just stopped showing up. If he were to ever return, we'd all get a breath of fresh air here in the Lion's Den.

 

Congratulations on becoming free from Christianity. Now we have one more cool person that's going to Hell with us.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Good post!  I feel exactly the same way as you do.

[Deidre]

Excellent post, Longwayaround.

 

I'm thinking back to the way I "defended" the faith before deconverting, and I wonder if it all sounded like unfeeling rhetoric, as well.

 

Inspiring thoughts this day!

[midniterider]

 

You don't know me.  We haven't interacted in any threads but I wanted to thank you.  

 

... Ironhorse ...

I am honestly unsure why you are even here.  It is hard for me to fathom that you think that your example might lead someone back to christianity or strengthen the faith of some christian that is lurking.  It comes off more as some sort of ego thing where you enjoy the attention you get here.

LongWayAround,

 

Thank you for your eloquently worded post. To your question (quoted above) as to why IH is here... I suspect he may be trying to secretly work through his own doubts and consider deconverting himself.

 

Human

 

 

Mt 12:30  - Whoever is not with Jesus is against him.

 

Luke 9:5 - If people dont welcome you then leave town and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them.

 

People here are definitely against Christ and against IH but IH refuses to shake the dust off his feet and leave. This leaves one to conclude that on some level, IH is against Jesus. Probably just below the "lip service for Jesus" level is the real IH. Part of him enjoys the anti-Christian banter here. Of course, the more time you spend here with the anti-religious the more you will understand and come to think like them. The more you will learn about your own religion than the sanitized shit you experience at church.

 

Oh well, like any other Christian, IH doesn't really follow the bible. Christians are #1 - Love Jesus , and #2 Take on the ugly task of defending the bible, which really is of zero importance to Christians. They only defend the bible so they don't look like a douche when they spout the verses they like. I doubt IH personally gives a damn about defending the bible or really cares about what's in it.

[moanareina]

Just the way I feel about Ironhorse and other Christians on this forum.

[Fernweh]

 

 

You don't know me.  We haven't interacted in any threads but I wanted to thank you.  

 

... Ironhorse ...

I am honestly unsure why you are even here.  It is hard for me to fathom that you think that your example might lead someone back to christianity or strengthen the faith of some christian that is lurking.  It comes off more as some sort of ego thing where you enjoy the attention you get here.

LongWayAround,

 

Thank you for your eloquently worded post. To your question (quoted above) as to why IH is here... I suspect he may be trying to secretly work through his own doubts and consider deconverting himself.

 

Human

 

 

Mt 12:30  - Whoever is not with Jesus is against him.

 

Luke 9:5 - If people dont welcome you then leave town and shake the dust off your feet in testimony against them.

 

People here are definitely against Christ and against IH but IH refuses to shake the dust off his feet and leave. This leaves one to conclude that on some level, IH is against Jesus. Probably just below the "lip service for Jesus" level is the real IH. Part of him enjoys the anti-Christian banter here. Of course, the more time you spend here with the anti-religious the more you will understand and come to think like them. The more you will learn about your own religion than the sanitized shit you experience at church.

 

Oh well, like any other Christian, IH doesn't really follow the bible. Christians are #1 - Love Jesus , and #2 Take on the ugly task of defending the bible, which really is of zero importance to Christians. They only defend the bible so they don't look like a douche when they spout the verses they like. I doubt IH personally gives a damn about defending the bible or really cares about what's in it.

 

 

The bible says whatever IH wants it to say.

[violetbutterfly]

Great thread.

[directionless]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

[bfuddled]

I tend to believe similarly to what Human stated. I think maybe the hit and run posters are just in it for shock value, but the ones that stick around like IH are satisfying some need by being here. I suspect that they're on the road to realizing the truth about Christianity, but don't quite have the ability to admit it (even to themselves) yet.

 

I said it before in another thread, but I at least give them respect for sticking it out here and taking the beating. To me there's more courage in doing that than in never confronting any of the issues.

[moanareina]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

 

Of course they are outnumbered. If you are atheist and go to a Christian forum you ll be outnumbered too. Everyone who joins this forum as a Christian is fully aware of that. If they are discouraged by that...not our problem. No one forced them to join.

[Guest end3]

I think this thread is a demonstration that we are all on a particular journey for lack of a better word. Don't know that this particular thread would be the highest choice in traversing the journey path, but heck, the good news is the man is moving...

[Leo]

A couple ideas:

First, true confessions. I did something similar on a gay tolerance website when I was still a Xian: I admitted my outward bullying attitude towards gays in my early 20s, and rather than claim we didn't know better, I acknowledged it for what it was, a young punk attitude and we did know better.

To that end, if this was 20+ years ago, I would have been full of rough edges and completely tactless in my narrow defenses of Christianity, thinking I sounded smart, thinking I was defending the faith, afraid that if I did any less I would consign someone to Hell. That is in no way an excuse. But when I see some of what the Lions' Den Christians post, just as when I see so-called "homophobia" (anti-gay bullying) on the Internet, I am reminded of my own youth. For the past 15 years, you would not have found me posting here, but a lurker, because as a "reasonable Christian" I agreed with a lot of what nonChristians thought of us, and knew the apologetic I was upholding was really unconvincing. I'm not excusing Ironhorse or any of the others, because I'm not excusing my younger self. There is behaving like a human being, and then there is behaving like a trapped animal. The dogmatic, whatever their persuasion, tend to do the latter.

Also on the minority bit: The only reason I as a white Christian knew anything about being an actual minority is because I am also blind. The minority argument simply does not hold water. Minority status on a particular forum is not minority status. But as Christians are not used to being anything but the supermajority, they lack the skill set necessary to behave as a minority. The Lions' Den Christians and others don't know when to pick their battles, or don't know enough to say, "I can't answer that." If they were to say they were uncomfortable with the Biblical response, they would be violating the ever so delicate Biblegod.

It is strange, and I've read about this on other places where people deconvert from Islam also: The trouble is the orthodox have rough edges and cannot see validity outside their narrow view. The reasonable who try to defend some orthodoxy, end up coming off as unconvincing to both the orthodox and outsiders. I don't mean their term wishy-washy, or lukewarm: I mean what I say, unconvincing. You'll not find Christians as I was for the past 15 years on here, because those know enough to know the Evangelicals can't be right. They also know they can't claim to be Christians and not support the dogma, just as one cannot claim to build a car and produce an airplane. So the only ones who could respond on here are the evangelicals with the rough edges, people who are cock-sure of everything as I was at age 22-25, because they claim to support the True Christianity ™. They are also the ones who are out to make new ones. The Liberal Christians are not trying to make new ones, it seems, and don't particularly engage in these types of conversations.

As to expressing the love of Christ, at least the populist version of what the love of Christ would look like, these True Christians ™ exemplify the highest form of love a desert god could produce. They have come not to bring peace but a sword: to divide a child from its father, to set daughter-in-law against mother-in-law and so on. Again, all very a propos for bronze-age, resource-scarce desert cultures. They are showing us desert-love. I'm glad they haven't graduated to Bin Laden-love. But that crowd prides itself on toughlove, corporal punishment of the children, church discipline, and so on.

I think they leave when they finally realize they have run out of gas. They've quoted all the multi-billion-dollar apologists and that's it. They're not free to say what they personally believe. Remember those Sunday school classes where they say, "We're going to teach you what we believe?" I remember in my 'reasonable Christian' days, I nearly got myself booted because when they went around the circle asking why wee were there, I said, "I'm curious as to whether or not I can be convinced of this." And that's simply not how they roll: You're supposed to be convinced ahead of time, with maybe a few questions but ready to lap it all up. You can get away with some fractional minor differences, but not many.

The fiery kind, like I was in my fiery early 20s, they don't consider why or why not they believe a particular doctrine. They've merely memorized it, and perhaps memorized what heretical sects say about the same thing.

I share everyone's frustration. But I remember my fiery youth, with a bit of incredulity if nothing else. And the "reasonable" kind like I was for the past 15 years never engaged seriously in debate with secular people, because we thought in a lot of ways the secular people were right. We doubting types more often engaged with fellow Xians in debates in our own churches.

When they run away from here, perhaps they lurk. Perhaps they become some form of what I was. Not yet willing to drop the faith, maybe even imagine their reasonable Christianity is an improvement, but don't dare come back in and engage. And I bet the deconversion process goes a lot faster than it did 15 years ago, now with the Internet and a lot more popular atheist and secular critiques of Christianity made available.

Just some random thoughts.

[Lucynia]

Thanks for sharing, LongWay!

 

I had similar thoughts early in my deconversion. The poor example that some christians set is clearly documented here and a great reference in moments of doubt. ( or would that be undoubt?)

 

It's hard to question sincere beliefs you've had for years, or have them challenged. I also think it takes a certain personality type to come to a place that's essentially a support group for those with an opposite position and think everyone should listen to your version of truth.

 

I've not once seen IH acknowledge that we have heard everything he has to say. It's blinders on and copy paste.

 

I don't feel the need to go on a Christian forum and try to destroy their belief. Yet here is a Christian trying to tell me that I just need to read a few more out of context quotes and ill be back for more Jesus!

 

This got a little longer and more rambling than I intended. Migraines aren't good for clarity.

[bornagainathiest]

I think this thread is a demonstration that we are all on a particular journey for lack of a better word. Don't know that this particular thread would be the highest choice in traversing the journey path, but heck, the good news is the man is moving...

 

Please show us where he has moved on any issue in any thread, End.

 

Having made your claim that he (Ironhorse) is moving, the burden of proof is now on you to show where and how.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

 

I think this thread is a demonstration that we are all on a particular journey for lack of a better word. Don't know that this particular thread would be the highest choice in traversing the journey path, but heck, the good news is the man is moving...

 

Please show us where he has moved on any issue in any thread, End.

 

Having made your claim that he (Ironhorse) is moving, the burden of proof is now on you to show where and how.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Was referring to the person starting this thread BAA, not IH.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

I think this thread is a demonstration that we are all on a particular journey for lack of a better word. Don't know that this particular thread would be the highest choice in traversing the journey path, but heck, the good news is the man is moving...

 

Please show us where he has moved on any issue in any thread, End.

 

Having made your claim that he (Ironhorse) is moving, the burden of proof is now on you to show where and how.

 

Was referring to the person starting this thread BAA, not IH.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification, End.

[midniterider]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

 

Christians are as good as any other people. But it doesnt appear that IH is getting discouraged. :-) Probably enjoying his perceived persecution.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

 

Christians are as good as any other people. But it doesnt appear that IH is getting discouraged. :-) Probably enjoying his perceived persecution.

 

 

He's probably enjoying it very much. I imagine that IH is a troll who isn't actually a believer.

[bornagainathiest]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

 

If Ironhorse is a decent person who means well Directionless, then surely he'd have the honesty and integrity to thank us when we show him where he's wrong?

 

As Miekko and sdelsolray did in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64034-women-in-the-ministry-and-teachings-of-jesus/page-5#.U-xrBfk9JmM ...?

 

As I did in this thread... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62720-no-shit-sherlock/page-28#.U-xrS_k9JmM ...?

 

And here, where I'm helping him to see that his understanding of skepticism is deeply flawed... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63715-thomas-the-skeptic-something-for-ironhorse/page-4#.U-xrgPk9JmM ...?

 

And here, where he mistook the daughters of Philip for preachers, when they were actually prophets...http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63715-thomas-the-skeptic-something-for-ironhorse/page-4#.U-xrgPk9JmM ...?

.

.

.

Aren't decent, well-meaning Christians supposed to be lovers of the truth, Directionless?

.

.

.

 

Perhaps you'd like to compare Ironhorse's 'love' of the truth to the actions of the hard-nosed, skeptical scientists described in this Wiki page?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lyne (Please read the, 'Pulsar Planet?' section, paying close attention to the last sentence.)

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think Ironhorse and the other Christian members seem to be decent people that mean well. I'm sure it is discouraging for them to be out-numbered all the time.

 

Christians are as good as any other people. But it doesnt appear that IH is getting discouraged. :-) Probably enjoying his perceived persecution.

 

 

He's probably enjoying it very much. I imagine that IH is a troll who isn't actually a believer.

 

 

Sometimes I too think he's a troll.

[buffettphan]

I think he's a believer AND a troll.  They're not mutually exclusive.  

[Thackerie]

... As I read your interactions in the Lion's Den and see how you conduct yourself, it is a vivid reminder of why I left christianity. ...

 

In short, thank you.  When I am working through the hard times associated with deconversion, it helps to watch a cosmos episode, read on an atheist website, or watch how you conduct yourself in the Lion's Den.  They all reinforce that I am now on the right path.

 

Well, at least Iron Horse is good for something.

 

I hope he's reading this thread.

[Guest Marty]

Almost 2 full pages of replies yet nothing from IH himself.  He was here posting last night, I'm sure he has seen this.  I wonder why he has nothing to say?