LongWayAround Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 It's too bad that you never got to meet the believer who used the name Heavenese. I'd say he was probably the most rational and friendly Christian to have ever shown up on this website. He was only here a little while before he just stopped showing up. If he were to ever return, we'd all get a breath of fresh air here in the Lion's Den. Congratulations on becoming free from Christianity. Now we have one more cool person that's going to Hell with us. I would like to see a christian like that in the Den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Been here 7 years I think....never have seen you before. If you want to talk, let's talk. Please just don't sit on the sidelines and point fingers. Poor form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Fyi, there's now 22 'poorly formed' fingers pointing at Ironhorse, End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 But as Christians are not used to being anything but the supermajority, they lack the skill set necessary to behave as a minority. The Lions' Den Christians and others don't know when to pick their battles, or don't know enough to say, "I can't answer that." If they were to say they were uncomfortable with the Biblical response, they would be violating the ever so delicate Biblegod. Thanks for sharing. I have heard my christian Mom express concern over apparent contradictions but go on to say that she has faith and will let it go with that. It would be refreshing to see a christian in the Lion's Den be honest and admit when things don't makes sense or when there is not a reasonable explanation for a contradiction instead of copy/posting apologetics. Can't allow any chinks in the armor or the whole thing might collapse! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 I am glad you said this so I don't feel so much like a conspiracy theorist. It had crossed my mind that Ironhorse is actually an ex-christian posing as a christian to make christians look bad. I don't really believe this but if it is true, he deserves an Oscar for his performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Fyi, there's now 22 'poorly formed' fingers pointing at Ironhorse, End. No, he's making general statements about Christians in this sub-forum...and qualifying how they should respond. Certainly this place has a purpose but it's somewhat disingenuous to say come stand in our bomb shelter but don't pick up our weapons. Christianity and salvation would be a process, not instantaneous. (You and I have had that discussion before). Hence my earlier comment in this thread. "Have care for my behaviors and feelings, but if necessary, we get to nuke yours". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Fyi, there's now 22 'poorly formed' fingers pointing at Ironhorse, End. No, he's making general statements about Christians in this sub-forum...and qualifying how they should respond. Certainly this place has a purpose but it's somewhat disingenuous to say come stand in our bomb shelter but don't pick up our weapons. Christianity and salvation would be a process, not instantaneous. (You and I have had that discussion before). Hence my earlier comment in this thread. "Have care for my behaviors and feelings, but if necessary, we get to nuke yours". This sub-forum is the Lion's Den, isn't it, End? A place where the concept of 'form' is irrelevant and where Christians enter and post at their own peril. After 7 years of membership and almost 6,500 posts i'm somewhat surprised that you'd need reminding of that. LongWayRound can say (almost) anything he likes without worrying about 'form'. As you can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Fyi, there's now 22 'poorly formed' fingers pointing at Ironhorse, End. No, he's making general statements about Christians in this sub-forum...and qualifying how they should respond. Certainly this place has a purpose but it's somewhat disingenuous to say come stand in our bomb shelter but don't pick up our weapons. Christianity and salvation would be a process, not instantaneous. (You and I have had that discussion before). Hence my earlier comment in this thread. "Have care for my behaviors and feelings, but if necessary, we get to nuke yours". This sub-forum is the Lion's Den, isn't it, End? A place where the concept of 'form' is irrelevant and where Christians enter and at their own peril. After 7 years of membership and almost 6,500 posts i'm somewhat surprised that you'd need reminding of that. LongWayRound can say (almost) anything he likes without worrying about 'form'. As you can you. If he want's to sit on the sideline and bitch at folks...no problem....just poor form in my opinion....not the highest road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 In other words, "I want this type of relationship, but I don't want to participate in ANY relationship that I don't feel safe". My question is, if you don't endeavor in a relationship, how can you really know the outcome. And he's within his right to do whatever. I just think not many of us like being judged without actually knowing who we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 There are plenty of soft-spoken Christians in this world that would not hesitate to confirm their doubts about belief. But doubt many of them come and post in this place. Ultimately Grace for him would be called for....but it's a little difficult sometimes given the location and tone in here. And those that do come in here probably have their own issues and paths that they are on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 In other words, "I want this type of relationship, but I don't want to participate in ANY relationship that I don't feel safe". My question is, if you don't endeavor in a relationship, how can you really know the outcome. And he's within his right to do whatever. I just think not many of us like being judged without actually knowing who we are. None of what I wrote was directed at you end3. I have seen you around but can't say I really know much about you or what you are about. I felt compelled to start this thread to point out when someone's self image does not seem to be in line with reality. It is similar to seeing a guy at a party that thinks he is Don Juan but all the girls can't wait to get away from him. You just want to go up to him and say "Dude, you're embarrassing yourself." It is hard to sit by and watch. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 But as Christians are not used to being anything but the supermajority, they lack the skill set necessary to behave as a minority. The Lions' Den Christians and others don't know when to pick their battles, or don't know enough to say, "I can't answer that." If they were to say they were uncomfortable with the Biblical response, they would be violating the ever so delicate Biblegod. Thanks for sharing. I have heard my christian Mom express concern over apparent contradictions but go on to say that she has faith and will let it go with that. It would be refreshing to see a christian in the Lion's Den be honest and admit when things don't makes sense or when there is not a reasonable explanation for a contradiction instead of copy/posting apologetics. Can't allow any chinks in the armor or the whole thing might collapse! You would like a christian to say "I dont know. That scripture doesnt make sense ,does it...." instead of pulling some farfetched baloney out of his butt and presenting it in defense of God? Yes I would like to see that. Christians might get a tad more respect that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 LongWayAround, I can relate to the disappointment you feel with the apologist efforts of Christians. I had the same experience on a Christian forum when I was trying to find a way to make Christianity work. The apologists there seemed so phony and narrow-minded that it was a real turn-off. (BTW you might consider going to a Christian forum if it helps you to find faults in apologist arguments.) Personally, I think Ironhorse seems to be an intelligent and well-meaning member, and I think the same is true of all the other Christian members that I've noticed so far. It's easy for arguments to turn into personal criticisms without even intending it. When I've been ridiculed or debates have become heated in forums, it can be very stressful and depressing. I'm sure part of why the Christian members sometimes seem unresponsive is that the reflexively negative responses they get to even the most innocuous posts must become tiresome, depressing, and stressful. So I agree with your opinion that the arguments and narrow-mindedness of apologists motivates you to disassociate yourself from Christianity, but I hate to see Ironhorse being singled-out for criticism when it's really the belief system that should be criticized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 In other words, "I want this type of relationship, but I don't want to participate in ANY relationship that I don't feel safe". My question is, if you don't endeavor in a relationship, how can you really know the outcome. And he's within his right to do whatever. I just think not many of us like being judged without actually knowing who we are. It is always funny to see you translate English into Endish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 LongWayAround, I can relate to the disappointment you feel with the apologist efforts of Christians. I had the same experience on a Christian forum when I was trying to find a way to make Christianity work. The apologists there seemed so phony and narrow-minded that it was a real turn-off. (BTW you might consider going to a Christian forum if it helps you to find faults in apologist arguments.) Personally, I think Ironhorse seems to be an intelligent and well-meaning member, and I think the same is true of all the other Christian members that I've noticed so far. It's easy for arguments to turn into personal criticisms without even intending it. When I've been ridiculed or debates have become heated in forums, it can be very stressful and depressing. I'm sure part of why the Christian members sometimes seem unresponsive is that the reflexively negative responses they get to even the most innocuous posts must become tiresome, depressing, and stressful. So I agree with your opinion that the arguments and narrow-mindedness of apologists motivates you to disassociate yourself from Christianity, but I hate to see Ironhorse being singled-out for criticism when it's really the belief system that should be criticized. The issue may not be IH in particular, just the culture he's representing and other Christians in the den are similar.... Some things the OP mentions are "blind adherence to the company line" and "logic twisting and word definition changing" (to allow blind adherence to the company line)... Unbending, rigid, black and white thinking makes people look disingenuous. So to keep myself from falling into that category I have to say here that, Christians, there may be a God, there may be a Jesus. I just choose not to worship him (Them?). And there doesn't seem to be any evidence of him/them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 14, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 14, 2014 There are plenty of soft-spoken Christians in this world that would not hesitate to confirm their doubts about belief. But doubt many of them come and post in this place. Ultimately Grace for him would be called for....but it's a little difficult sometimes given the location and tone in here. And those that do come in here probably have their own issues and paths that they are on. Everybody in here has issues!!! Except for ME, asshole! Ahem, moving on... The beauty of having the horse around is his classic and clean apologetic approach. He has standard responses to any of the problems, questions or comments nonbelievers may have; I and I'm sure many other experienced Ex-Cs here can predict every response. He has learned, either consciously or subconsciously, one of the classic schools of verbally defending the faith. What he was taught is always correct, even when it's not. This is in contrast to some other Christians who venture into the Den with some rather quirky personal views and convoluted arguments that would keep them off of Christian forums. But we love 'em! And YOU, end! One classic example is denial of that rare bird, a clear and unmistakable Bible verse. A verse attributed to Paul clearly says X in the Bible but it's an unpopular sentiment, so the defense is that Jesus himself didn't say that. Is the Bible unreliable except for the red letters? If so, why would you think those who wrote the red letters were correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 LongWayAround, I can relate to the disappointment you feel with the apologist efforts of Christians. I had the same experience on a Christian forum when I was trying to find a way to make Christianity work. The apologists there seemed so phony and narrow-minded that it was a real turn-off. (BTW you might consider going to a Christian forum if it helps you to find faults in apologist arguments.) Personally, I think Ironhorse seems to be an intelligent and well-meaning member, and I think the same is true of all the other Christian members that I've noticed so far. It's easy for arguments to turn into personal criticisms without even intending it. When I've been ridiculed or debates have become heated in forums, it can be very stressful and depressing. I'm sure part of why the Christian members sometimes seem unresponsive is that the reflexively negative responses they get to even the most innocuous posts must become tiresome, depressing, and stressful. So I agree with your opinion that the arguments and narrow-mindedness of apologists motivates you to disassociate yourself from Christianity, but I hate to see Ironhorse being singled-out for criticism when it's really the belief system that should be criticized. I agree that many of the christian members here are intelligent and well-meaning. Part of the question I am raising in this thread is, what is Ironhorse's real reason for being here? And I don't mean the one he is telling himself or may tell others. What is the real reason? Some posters have offered interesting theories like: he likes the feeling of persecution, he is having doubts himself, or he is a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 14, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 14, 2014 End3, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with LongWayAround pointing out the things about Ironhorse's behavior that have been of benefit to him. Simply because Ironhorse has helped LWA in a manner that was counter to his intent doesn't mean that LWA is being judgmental in giving thanks. I would speculate that each of us has helped another on this site whether we realized it, intended it, or not. I'm sure one or two lurkers have gone away thinking, "That RedneckProfessor is one seriously messed-up dude, accusing god of setting Adam and Eve up to fail. god would never do that; it's not true. Redneck's just angry at god and wants to sin." What I'm saying is: it goes both ways, and sometimes we "help" in ways we didn't intend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 If he want's to sit on the sideline and bitch at folks...no problem....just poor form in my opinion....not the highest road. This is the Lion's Den, not the highest road, End. This is a place where we Lions don't have to be nice or play nice with our Christian food. This is our playground and it's our rules that prevail - not anyone else's. So there's no 'form' that we Lions have to be mindful of or adhere to - even if you think there is or should be. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the heads of the Christians who come here, forcing them to do enter the Den. If the sign says, "Don't Walk" and you walk, well... that's your fault for not paying attention to the fair warning. There's no highest road here End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernweh Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 IH has made it clear in several posts that he's only here to help the undecided lurkers. This thread is his virtual a golf clap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 IH has made it clear in several posts that he's only here to help the undecided lurkers. This thread is his virtual a golf clap. So I would say: Goal accomplished , badge earned . Ironhorse has given meaning to his existence on the forum . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I've always wanted to write a letter similar to the OP to my former middle school teacher from my parochial school days. He was the first person to make me go "huh"? in regards to the bible and what it says. He was also on some crusade to get me and the other boys away from that satanic heavy metal during the satanism scare of the 80's. He wouldn't allow me to wear all black to class, even if it was otherwise following dress code, because "black is the devil's color". He left the school to become a pastor. I've always wanted to contact him and thank him for showing me the ridiculousness of religious thinking and in effect becoming my inoculation from the disease of christianity before I wasted half my life on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 DO i need a password to join this conversation? lol jk Longway your distrust is logical and your suspicous understandable many people relate to you here very well and i expecially enjoy your skilled writing and ability to relay accuratly your emotions and thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 End3, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with LongWayAround pointing out the things about Ironhorse's behavior that have been of benefit to him. Simply because Ironhorse has helped LWA in a manner that was counter to his intent doesn't mean that LWA is being judgmental in giving thanks. I would speculate that each of us has helped another on this site whether we realized it, intended it, or not. I'm sure one or two lurkers have gone away thinking, "That RedneckProfessor is one seriously messed-up dude, accusing god of setting Adam and Eve up to fail. god would never do that; it's not true. Redneck's just angry at god and wants to sin." What I'm saying is: it goes both ways, and sometimes we "help" in ways we didn't intend. I think most of us like agreement within our relationships...i.e. friends and unity. That feeling to me implies there is something right vs. something wrong. He pointed out to me that he was unable to remain quiet or "grace-filled" but was driven to be thankful he was not as bad as another. Ultimately Grace is the answer, but our shortcomings/sins prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 If he want's to sit on the sideline and bitch at folks...no problem....just poor form in my opinion....not the highest road. This is the Lion's Den, not the highest road, End. This is a place where we Lions don't have to be nice or play nice with our Christian food. This is our playground and it's our rules that prevail - not anyone else's. So there's no 'form' that we Lions have to be mindful of or adhere to - even if you think there is or should be. Also, nobody's holding a gun to the heads of the Christians who come here, forcing them to do enter the Den. If the sign says, "Don't Walk" and you walk, well... that's your fault for not paying attention to the fair warning. There's no highest road here End. That's a cop out BAA. Certainly there is a high road. Justifying this sub-forum as something outside of morality is, like I said, a cop out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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