Thank You Ironhorse

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

HAHA your right, thats because it doesnt WORK with wrong motives. period.

[moanareina]

midniterider that verse is talkign about people who are rpaying with right motives, If i pray that God makes you deny your own existence and go crazy and get put in a mental asylum should God Honor it?

 

IF i pray all guys who are bigger than my anatomy get their balls shrunk so that i can be the breadwinner should God honor it?

 

If i pray all Atheists girlfriends look like they did a 40yard dash in a 30yard room and an christians partners looks perfect with absolute perfect body symmetry? Should Go honor it?

 

Yeah. Like we all only prayed silly prayers like that. Got it. My prayers of getting to know God for real have not been answered because my motives had been wrong. Because to know God for real is wrong, he does not want to be known that way. And every other prayer I prayed was wrong motive as well. Because wrong motive always works...

[sdelsolray]

HAHA your right, thats because it doesnt WORK with wrong motives. period.

Says you.  Please demonstrate this particular sky fairy of whom you speak exists to begin with.  First things first, after all.  This is because if your favored sky fairy does not exist, then your statement is merely a mundane expression of wishful thinking and not part of reality.

 

Of course, you could provide evidence of those who have prayed with the "right" motive, and had those prayers answered by demonstrable supernatural means.  Good luck with that, theist.

[RipVanWinkle]

1AcceptingATheist:

 

Can I jump in here with a question? I'm testing your intellectual honesty: I think you would agree that your saying that every baby god caused to be killed  was going to end up a killer or some other similar criminal is pure speculation. Also it seems to me that god would disclose his motives if he had killed babies to prevent something worse in the future. Otherwise it's like saying the reason for all  genocides in history was so those millions of people who died were going to do something worse in the future. It's speculation and downright ridiculous.

 

Aside from your speculation on some very important fact left unstated in the biblical story of genocide which would have been  important to know, but nevertheless was somehow left out of the bible, can you come up with a plausible reason why god was justified in ordering genocide? Can you imagine one? I can't without making up something that would have been  critical information, but which god forgot to mention, Don't play dodge ball. Just answer the question.  

 

Oh, one more thing. The questions you are being asked here are not trick questions, but rather very straight forward. It's your trying to come up with responsive answers that is tricky.  bill

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

William perhaps you read to fast, in that same chapter people like to cherry pick. you would see that it wasnt speculation it actually happened Some were left to live....and exactly what God didnt want to happen. ...Happened they slaughtered isrealites later on.

 

Now my question.....WHY????? is everyone IGNORING grown adults in that civilzation all the bad thigns the criminals that were tortuting babies and raping people, God didnt kill the people in that area because they were just sitting back and eating ice cream. Why why defend the people who were already bad?

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of the King, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated
 

[sdelsolray]

William perhaps you read to fast, in that same chapter people like to cherry pick. you would see that it wasnt speculation it actually happened Some were left to live....and exactly what God didnt want to happen. ...Happened they slaughtered isrealites later on.

 

Now my question.....WHY????? is everyone IGNORING grown adults in that civilzation all the bad thigns the criminals that were tortuting babies and raping people, God didnt kill the people in that area because they were just sitting back and eating ice cream. Why why defend the people who were already bad?

It's the same people who killed the infants - certain humans.  No sky fairy required.

 

Imagine, for the moment, that your "god" does not exist and its existence is merely wishful thinking.  Before I go any further, let's see if you can handle this first step.

[Roz]

Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of the King, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated

 

 

So when those 19 men flew into the tower and killed 3000 because their god ordered them to, they were wrong, right?  Why?  Because their god is the wrong god, but your god is the right god?

 

Do you not see how you're instantly revolted by 9/11's religious motives but yet you're attempting to justify the same thing when it's your religion? 

[bornagainathiest]

Psalm 139 : 13 - 18, NIV.

 

13 For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God!
    How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
    they would outnumber the grains of sand—
    when I awake, I am still with you.

 

 

This psalm has always troubled me.

 

God knits together every baby in it's mother's womb and also knows all the days that baby will live for.

Meaning that he foreknows which babies will grow up to persecute the Israelites - before they are born.

.

.

.

But he doesn't act directly on his foreknowledge and simply un-knit those babies.

Instead he carries on knitting them together in their mother's wombs until the Israelites do the killing for him.

.

.

.

THAT...troubles me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Roz nice comparison but doesnt quite hit the nail on the head. I can see if God ordered things he did in the OT as he did today so 2014 then you can make a fair comparison but TODAY cannot be compared to ad or bc times that is genetic fallacy to make such a comparison. Even if you dont like that answer furthermore logically speaking the people in twin towers were doing their normal everyday job, texting peeing in the bathroom etc. filing reports for thier boss etc. in the OT the people that were killed were not lounging around or doing work they were slaughting kids and bruning them as a scarfice so tell me?? why are you DEFENDING these people?

 

 

Bornagainst here is your logic... IF i trusted science and the single solitary means for truth I would have been let down now THAT distrubs me

 

Laugh or cry (take your pick), but up until the late 19th century, doctors didn't really see the need to wash their hands before picking up a scalpel. until 1860

Now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists didnt understand the circulatory system very well until 1628

now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists used to beleive the earth was the center of the universe

now THAT Troubles me

 

 

eh no need to add to the list...the point is this....All these are simple misunderstanding due to lack of information at the time more resources became avaible science grew and found the truth eventually. But the fact remains WE can point to ANYTHING BAD about an opposing view, cherry pick it  and say SEE...."THIS" is why i dont believe it.

[midniterider]

midniterider that verse is talkign about people who are rpaying with right motives, If i pray that God makes you deny your own existence and go crazy and get put in a mental asylum should God Honor it?

 

IF i pray all guys who are bigger than my anatomy get their balls shrunk so that i can be the breadwinner should God honor it?

 

If i pray all Atheists girlfriends look like they did a 40yard dash in a 30yard room and an christians partners looks perfect with absolute perfect body symmetry? Should Go honor it?

 

"Right motives" is your addition to the bible, sir. It does not say that.

 

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13. If I pray that your momma has uncontrollable farting episodes on Christmas day that the father may be glorified in the son....then Jesus has promised to fulfill that...He said "Whatsoever." Whatsoever is an absolute. Surely Jesus would know what he was getting into if he said, "Whatsoever", knowing that his creations have wild imaginations. So he reneges on his promise. He in fact does not do "whatsoever" we ask for, in contradiction to his word. So his word means nothing. 

[Roz]

You know, there's a million different things your god could've done instead of ordering genocide.  He was very specific in the clothing, hairstyles, jewelry, personal hygiene of the hebrews.  He could've given them lessons in moral ethics.  He could've redirected the jews to other non-occupied lands.

 

Yet he didn't do all of those things.  He chose genocide, to kill infants, women, small children, and any other defenseless creatures.  Oh by the way, he ordered the rape and forced marriages of virgin captives as well.  And he institutionalized permanent slavery of non-hebrews.

 

Can't you see that you're going to have to twist your mind into knots defending your god?

 

How do you KNOW that those 19 muslims were not god's chosen people but your israelites were?  How do you KNOW that all of those Canaanites deserved to die, or else they were going to all turn out to be murderers (just like the israelites)? 

 

How do you know that the census of Quirinius required people to travel to the lands of their long dead ancestors?  How do you know that your jesus, the son of god, really did exist?  How do you know that the flood / the exodus / the death of your god really did happen?

 

The answer is you don't, aside from what your bible told you.  Yet you will still preach "my god is the true god, and he loves everyone!"

[midniterider]

Withdrawn.

[midniterider]

Withdrew this one also.

[midniterider]

Roz nice comparison but doesnt quite hit the nail on the head. I can see if God ordered things he did in the OT as he did today so 2014 then you can make a fair comparison but TODAY cannot be compared to ad or bc times that is genetic fallacy to make such a comparison. Even if you dont like that answer furthermore logically speaking the people in twin towers were doing their normal everyday job, texting peeing in the bathroom etc. filing reports for thier boss etc. in the OT the people that were killed were not lounging around or doing work they were slaughting kids and bruning them as a scarfice so tell me?? why are you DEFENDING these people?

 

 

Bornagainst here is your logic... IF i trusted science and the single solitary means for truth I would have been let down now THAT distrubs me

 

Laugh or cry (take your pick), but up until the late 19th century, doctors didn't really see the need to wash their hands before picking up a scalpel. until 1860

Now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists didnt understand the circulatory system very well until 1628

now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists used to beleive the earth was the center of the universe

now THAT Troubles me

 

 

eh no need to add to the list...the point is this....All these are simple misunderstanding due to lack of information at the time more resources became avaible science grew and found the truth eventually. But the fact remains WE can point to ANYTHING BAD about an opposing view, cherry pick it  and say SEE...."THIS" is why i dont believe it.

 

God doesnt let doctors know about microscopic bacteria and viruses until 1860? THANKS JESUS!

God doesnt tell doctors anything about the circulatory system until 1628? THANKS JESUS!

God waited till when to tell us the earth was not the center of the universe? THANKS JESUS!

 

Or maybe we just found out all that stuff on our own cuz Jesus was only in our imaginations.

[bornagainathiest]

Roz nice comparison but doesnt quite hit the nail on the head.

 

My example from the Psalms was not a comparison.

It's a Biblically-accurate description of God's nature.

 

I can see if God ordered things he did in the OT as he did today so 2014 then you can make a fair comparison but TODAY cannot be compared to ad or bc times that is genetic fallacy to make such a comparison.

 

I'm not making any comparison between God and man.  You just think I am.

I'm simply troubled by what the Bible says about the nature of God.

 

Even if you dont like that answer furthermore logically speaking the people in twin towers were doing their normal everyday job, texting peeing in the bathroom etc. filing reports for thier boss etc. in the OT the people that were killed were not lounging around or doing work they were slaughting kids and bruning them as a scarfice so tell me?? why are you DEFENDING these people?

 

I'm not defending the adults who were born and grew up to do these things.

I'm defending the unborn babies who God ordered the Israelites to kill.  If you can argue that these unborn children deserved to be killed on account of what that hadn't yet done, please go for it.

 

Btw, there's no comparison between this and medically aborting unborn children.

When a baby is aborted like this, that's not done because of any knowledge the doctors have about it's future life.  They have no such knowledge.  They don't terminate the baby because they know it's going to grow up into a murderer, a pedophile or a genocidal maniac.

 

But that's what God did... using the Israelites to do the killing.

 

Bornagainst here is your logic... IF i trusted science and the single solitary means for truth I would have been let down now THAT distrubs me

 

No.  That's not my logic.  You only think it is.

 

Laugh or cry (take your pick), but up until the late 19th century, doctors didn't really see the need to wash their hands before picking up a scalpel. until 1860

Now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists didnt understand the circulatory system very well until 1628

now THAT Troubles me

 

Scientists used to beleive the earth was the center of the universe

now THAT Troubles me

 

 

eh no need to add to the list...the point is this....All these are simple misunderstanding due to lack of information at the time more resources became avaible science grew and found the truth eventually. But the fact remains WE can point to ANYTHING BAD about an opposing view, cherry pick it  and say SEE...."THIS" is why i dont believe it.

 

You still don't get it, 1AAT1.

 

Science doesn't give us the absolute truth about anything.  

It's a tool and process of gaining a more accurate picture of what the facts about reality are.  Our grasp of the truth about reality will ALWAYS be incomplete - not absolute.  So you can't point to examples of science's lack of understanding of this or that and say that science it doesn't work.  Science will always lack understanding of something.  It's not absolute.  

 

And I've already told you in this thread that I don't "BELIEVE IN" science.

That's another mistake you keep making.  You think you should believe in science as some kind of religion, something to replace God and something to put your faith in.

 

 

No.  Science is not something you should 'believe in'.

[Thackerie]

... Laugh or cry (take your pick), but up until the late 19th century, doctors didn't really see the need to wash their hands before picking up a scalpel. until 1860

Now THAT Troubles me

...

 

Maybe those doctors were christians, and they were simply following Jesus. He didn't wash his hands either. (Luke 11:35; Matthew 15:2)

[disillusioned]

eh no need to add to the list...the point is this....All these are simple misunderstanding due to lack of information at the time more resources became avaible science grew and found the truth eventually. But the fact remains WE can point to ANYTHING BAD about an opposing view, cherry pick it  and say SEE...."THIS" is why i dont believe it.

 

There is almost a significant point here. You are correct that to argue that because Christianity is a horrible doctrine it must therefore be false would be fallacious. I don't think that's what most people are doing here, however. I can only speak for myself, but my process of deconversion began with the realization that there is no real reason to think that Christianity is true. I then recognized that there are quite a few good reasons to think that it is false. That is all that matters as far as the veracity of the belief system goes. But this leaves us free to discuss that if Christianity were true, then it would be a terrible truth indeed. You have been given several examples of why this is the case. Again, these examples do not demonstrate that the belief system is false, but they do raise two very important questions: first, "do you really believe this?" and second, "is this really good news?" The answer to the first is up to you, but the answer to the second is a resounding "no".

[mymistake]

Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of the King, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated

 

 

 

You do realize that the books of Samuel are not history.  They are myth.  They don't describe real events.

[Orbit]

HAHA your right, thats because it doesnt WORK with wrong motives. period.

It doesn't work with any motives. 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

in the OT the people that were killed were not lounging around or doing work they were slaughting kids and bruning them as a scarfice so tell me?? why are you DEFENDING these people?

 

What about the innocent children and infants that were slaughtered with the sword? What about the man that was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath? What about the Israelites that were swallowed up by the ground (including their families) because they didn't like the way Moses was leading them? What about the children that were mauled by bears for teasing a prophet for being bald (they were sent by your god, if the event was indeed a historical event)? 

 

No one is trying to defend people who were slaughtering kids and burning them as a sacrifice (in fact, most of us openly condemn humans that do such things as sick barbarians). It is dishonest of you to say that the people that were killed in the OT were only those that slaughtered kids and/or burned them as sacrifices, because that is simply not true. Also, since the topic of slaughtering children was brought up; why was it acceptable for the Israelites to do it, but not for anyone else? Isn't that a double standard?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

HAHA your right, thats because it doesnt WORK with wrong motives. period.

 

What if I pray for all children infected with cancer, AIDS, genetic diseases, or any other horrible illness, to be cured instantly? If I do this because I am motivated by a desire to see those diseases cured, will the prayer work? If it doesn't work, then clearly motive has very little to do with it. Perhaps when a prayer is answered in a way in which a person might want it to be answered, it is nothing more than coincidence and/or placebo at work?

 

What if humans somehow manage to cure every known illness? Should we give your god the credit for answering that prayer, regardless of how much time has passed since the prayer was made, despite the fact that humans did all the work?

[moanareina]

HAHA your right, thats because it doesnt WORK with wrong motives. period.

 

And...why did God not answer my prayers to be happy? On his terms...

I guess I had wrong motives in my wish to be happy? Then it must have been Gods will for me to be unhappy? And then, why would he want me to be unhappy? As the loving father...isn't a father someone who wants his children to be happy, I mean a loving father?