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Goodbye Jesus

Why Don't Apologists Use Testimonials?


directionless

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When I was growing up in the late 70s my mother often watched the 700 Club. (I always like Ben Kinchlow smile.png ) Often there would be a story about a person whose life was turned around miraculously by Jesus.

 

I've noticed Christian apologists on forums today rarely refer to personal testimonials. Instead they simply try to explain-away contradictions or absurdities in the Bible or their denomination's theology.

 

This seems so dumb to me, because the Bible is just a book and theology is just somebody's theories. This is like arguing about the beauty and structural integrity of your church building. The important question is: do we have any evidence that God even exists and do we have any evidence that Christianity is a path to God? Christians rarely address those questions for some reason.

 

Has anybody else noticed this or it is just my imagination?

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

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Muslim:  Look, Allah blessed my life in X and Y scenarios, so he must be the true god!

Christian:  Look, jesus blessed my life in Z, Q, A, B scenarios, so he must be the true god!

Mormon:  Look, mormon jesus blessed my life in C, D, E scenarios, so he must be the true god!

JW:  Look, Jehovah blessed my life...

 

And on and on it goes.  The most useless conversations to have are with testimonials about some god.

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It seems like to deconvert people (or from the Christian perspective to reconvert people) we need to address the reasons that people believe in Christianity: childhood indoctrination, social benefits, and experiences that seem to provide evidence for Christianity (gifts of the spirit, answered prayers, escape from addictions, visions, ...)

 

I don't think too many non-Christians pick up the Bible and become Christians because it all makes sense to them, so why do we debate the Bible? People can be Christians without believing the Bible, so proving the Bible wrong doesn't accomplish anything.

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directionless, do you mean on a forum such as this? Do you think an apologist's testimonial might be effective somehow? Maybe it's as others here have suggested, it would just be "my god did this" versus "your god did that" type scenario.

 

I agree Ben Kinchlow was the coolest person on that show. Even when I was a Christian, I quit watching it after Ben left the show.

 

edit: Kinchlow was the 'only' cool person on that show.

If I put myself in the shoes of an apologist, I would try to think of some evidence to persuade people that Christianity is real instead of trying to show that the Bible makes sense. Similarly if I was trying to prove that Christianity is not real, I would attack the testimonials and not waste time attacking the Bible.

 

(Glad you agree about Ben Kinchlow. smile.png )

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As an example of this apparent disregard for testimonials among apologists, several times I have asked apologists on a Christian forum to describe the experiences that helped them to believe and continue to sustain their belief. Nobody responded. I assumed they would all be eager to share these experiences based on my experience watching testimonials on 700 club as a child.

 

The only meaningful response I got was from somebody who said she didn't have any reason to believe but for some miraculous reason she did believe. That was an interesting and sincere answer. But mostly the apologists quote the Bible as if that would persuade a doubter.

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DL, I'll be the apologist for a minute.  "Loki came to me in a vision last night, and told me that in order to go to Asgard I must tell you about how awesome and fantastic he is."

 

What would be your reply?

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DL, I'll be the apologist for a minute.  "Loki came to me in a vision last night, and told me that in order to go to Asgard I must tell you about how awesome and fantastic he is."

 

What would be your reply?

First, it would help me understand why you believe in Loki.

Second, if you seemed rational aside from this vision, and if you seemed to be profoundly affected by the vision, then I might think you experienced something supernatural.

 

So it would be more persuasive than if you gave me no reason for your belief in Loki and simply quoted from a story about the adventures of Loki.

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I believe in Loki because he showed himself to me in a vision.  I am profoundly moved by this vision because it was real.  

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I believe in Loki because he showed himself to me in a vision.  I am profoundly moved by this vision because it was real.

Sounds interesting. If I knew you enough to know that you are being honest and have no psychological issues, then I would be even more interested. This is no different than if you claimed to have seen a UFO. Maybe your memory of Loki was actually implanted to cover up an abduction experience? At least we have something to work with.

 

Do you think it would be more convincing if somebody quoted from Nordic myths about Loki and claimed that it was all true and all made sense but no evidence at all?

 

Also if you had actually seen Loki in a vision and were profoundly moved, would you care if somebody found mistakes, lies, and forgeries in a Nordic myth about Loki?

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No, those nordic myths were all lies.  Loki told me he's the one true god, but won't display any supernatural powers because that would just take away people's free will to choose him.

 

My vision is the only one he will give, but he wants you to know that he has a plan for you and wants the best for you.

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

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They just write it off as peak emotional experiences and say so what. Pretty simple

That is true, but I have noticed that the "they" seems to be both Christians and atheists. In fact many of the Christians I've interacted with on forums seem even more skeptical and cynical than atheists. It's always made me wonder how or even why those Christians believe. I guess those Christians must seek the charitable and self-improvement and social benefits? (BTW, End3, I don't know what types of beliefs you have, so no criticism of you is intended.)

 

Here is an analogy. Imagine you are trying to sell Weight Watchers frozen dinners. Wouldn't you want somebody to talk about how much weight they lost over the last few months by eating these tasty dinners? I don't see any of that type of discussion from apologists - not just on this forum but on other forums as well.

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You can see the weight watches dinners.  You can just google search to see if the meals are safe to eat or not.  You can gather lots more evidence than simply testimonials. 

 

What I honestly don't understand is how you can dismiss the bible stories.  Yes, it's all fiction.  However, those who believe in it believe that at least some some of the stories are true (example, virtually every christian believes in the historicity of jesus' birth, despite the huge improbability of the events that caused the journey of M+J).  I believed that Noah's flood really did happen, and that the earth was made by this god in 6 days.  RNP, a man with a doctorate, freely admitted that he believed that the flood really did happen as depicted.

 

I'm just saying that it takes different points to trigger doubt in different people.  I was jarred by the slavery bit, due to my skin color.  I was jarred by the orders of genocide and rape/forced weddings of women under orders of bible god.

 

To answer your question, how come christians seem to be more skeptical?  It's because they're already confined to their own religion.  It mandates that everything 'not of christ' is of the devil, so they shun all other curiosities about the supernatural.

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You can see the weight watches dinners.  You can just google search to see if the meals are safe to eat or not.  You can gather lots more evidence than simply testimonials. 

 

What I honestly don't understand is how you can dismiss the bible stories.  Yes, it's all fiction.  However, those who believe in it believe that at least some some of the stories are true (example, virtually every christian believes in the historicity of jesus' birth, despite the huge improbability of the events that caused the journey of M+J).  I believed that Noah's flood really did happen, and that the earth was made by this god in 6 days.  RNP, a man with a doctorate, freely admitted that he believed that the flood really did happen as depicted.

 

I'm just saying that it takes different points to trigger doubt in different people.  I was jarred by the slavery bit, due to my skin color.  I was jarred by the orders of genocide and rape/forced weddings of women under orders of bible god.

 

To answer your question, how come christians seem to be more skeptical?  It's because they're already confined to their own religion.  It mandates that everything 'not of christ' is of the devil, so they shun all other curiosities about the supernatural.

On the Bible stories, when I was young I literally believed in the Bible stories that I heard. When I was about 12 (?) I read the Bible for the first time from start to finish. I remember being troubled by the story where God stopped the Sun so the Israelites could kill more of their enemies. I wasn't troubled by the killing, but I was troubled by stopping the Sun. Obviously God can do anything, but that didn't sound like a good way of accomplishing the goal of killing more enemies. How would that work? Did God stop the Earth from spinning and wouldn't that cause huge problems all over the planet? So I doubted that story was true and before long I doubted other stories were true.

 

I'm ashamed to admit that the moral issues like genocide and slavery never bothered me too much. I figured that was just the way it was. If you want to make a cake you've got to break some eggs... It never occurred to me that God and Israel ought to be held to a higher standard than Genghis Khan and the Mongols.

 

That is a good point that some of the skepticism of Christians towards supernatural is driven by their commitment to orthodox Christian theology and experiences. They would probably be less skeptical of testimonials that better synchronize with what they already believe.

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

 

Tonight I had a pretty strange experience. I was half asleep and felt as if I was awake still. So I felt something was moving in my blanket. Reaching towards it in agony, catching something that felt like a mice and kinda moved while holding it. When I desperately turned on the light and tried to figure out what my hand was holding, in fear it might bite me...it was blanket. Nothing was moving, no mice. But I was awake again. Stuff like this happens. It is a brain trick. And this is how I reconcile my spiritual experiences I had as a Christian now as I am atheist. And Atheism is nothing I have to make work. It is no religion. It is just the lack of believe in a God/Gods.

 

This is my testimony...

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

I won't speak for anyone else, but I did so by studying psychology and the effects of indoctrination on the human psyche.  I came to understand that "spiritual" experiences were just an extension of the mind.

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Tonight I had a pretty strange experience. I was half asleep and felt as if I was awake still. So I felt something was moving in my blanket. Reaching towards it in agony, catching something that felt like a mice and kinda moved while holding it. When I desperately turned on the light and tried to figure out what my hand was holding, in fear it might bite me...it was blanket. Nothing was moving, no mice. But I was awake again. Stuff like this happens. It is a brain trick. And this is how I reconcile my spiritual experiences I had as a Christian now as I am atheist. And Atheism is nothing I have to make work. It is no religion. It is just the lack of believe in a God/Gods.

 

This is my testimony...

I was going to suggest that you need a cat. Then I remembered the times that I've been awakened in the night by something scurrying in my blanket and discovered that my cat was playing with a mouse in my bed. smile.png

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

I won't speak for anyone else, but I did so by studying psychology and the effects of indoctrination on the human psyche.  I came to understand that "spiritual" experiences were just an extension of the mind.

 

That makes sense. Theoretically that approach should work for me too, but it doesn't for some reason. It might be that I tend to be indecisive and always reconsidering my conclusions. Every day when I go outside, I need to turn around and make sure I locked the door. The door is always locked, but I'm never satisfied until I've turned around and double-checked.

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians.  How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap?  christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

There are explanations for the religious content of psychotic experiences that is directly related to brain function and chemistry. Having a religious hallucination isn't evidence for anything besides the misfiring of your brain.

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians. How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap? christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

There are explanations for the religious content of psychotic experiences that is directly related to brain function and chemistry. Having a religious hallucination isn't evidence for anything besides the misfiring of your brain.

 

We could also say that love or fear is directly related to brain function and chemistry, but those are reactions to somewhat real circumstances. Why couldn't a spiritual experience be a reaction to spirits? Maybe God is able to speak more clearly to people in liminal states, psychotic states, etc?

 

It seems that we could tell the difference by looking for transmission of information that the recipient couldn't have obtained through normal means.

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The problem would be that we have our testimonies, too, both as ex-christians and also as christians. How effective would a salesman's testimony be if you already bought the product once and found out it was crap? christians on this site can't tell us much about their christian lives that we haven't already experienced ourselves.

You post reminded me of another question. How do ex-Christians reconcile their spiritual experiences during or even after practicing Christianity with atheism? Does this every feel like you are sweeping these experiences under the rug so that atheism will work better?

 

There are explanations for the religious content of psychotic experiences that is directly related to brain function and chemistry. Having a religious hallucination isn't evidence for anything besides the misfiring of your brain.

 

We could also say that love or fear is directly related to brain function and chemistry, but those are reactions to somewhat real circumstances. Why couldn't a spiritual experience be a reaction to spirits? Maybe God is able to speak more clearly to people in liminal states, psychotic states, etc?

 

It seems that we could tell the difference by looking for transmission of information that the recipient couldn't have obtained through normal means.

 

It's not due to spirits because there is no evidence that spirits exist. If we can do particle physics we would be able to measure spirits, and it's just not there. Our consciousness is a result of our brain chemistry, which does indeed create reality for us, as we perceive it. But that doesn't mean abnormal brain states mean that imagined beings are real.

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It's not due to spirits because there is no evidence that spirits exist. If we can do particle physics we would be able to measure spirits, and it's just not there. Our consciousness is a result of our brain chemistry, which does indeed create reality for us, as we perceive it. But that doesn't mean abnormal brain states mean that imagined beings are real.

God and the human soul are just special types of spirits (IMO). I don't think science claims to have much evidence confirming or denying these ideas.

 

I guess it depends how we define spirits and their expected effects on the natural world?

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It seems that we could tell the difference by looking for transmission of information that the recipient couldn't have obtained through normal means.

I have brought that up before....in the sense that was no way "those thoughts" could have come to my mind by me.

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