Why Don't Apologists Use Testimonials?

[directionless]

 

It seems that we could tell the difference by looking for transmission of information that the recipient couldn't have obtained through normal means.

I have brought that up before....in the sense that was no way "those thoughts" could have come to my mind by me.

 

That's interesting. I can only think of a few cases:

 

(1) When I was about 13, a teacher performed an informal telepathy experiment. Somehow I knew what she was visualizing, and the total confidence I had when I proudly told her the answer surprised everybody else. I just knew without any effort or guesswork. It didn't even seem strange to me that I would know this.

 

(2) More recently when I was attending a very small service during Holy Week, I was feeling very disgusted with trying to be a Christian, so I was probably acting a little weird. I heard the voice of a priest behind me saying "oh, he's in delusion". This was the sort of thing that this priest might have been thinking about me, but he would never have said something like that so loud during such a solemn church service. At the time I didn't know about psychosis or delusional disorder, so it seems like I might have actually heard this priests thoughts. It's hard to tell.

 

(3) About 15 years ago it seemed like I met a spirit in my mind while trying to go to sleep. This spirit was showing me things and explaining things to me about the nature of reality. Many of the ideas matched religions and philosophies that I didn't know or care about at that time. (I have never been interested in religion or philosophy.)

 

(4) A relative was apparently told some things by a spirit that helped mend some relationships.

 

Those are the only cases where it seemed like somebody received information through paranormal means. None of them would impress a skeptic, and probably they just make me sound silly. But sometimes I wonder about them.

[directionless]

I realized something yesterday that is interesting. I quit Christianity because it didn't seem to be working for me. I didn't quit because I had doubts about the existence of God. I had doubts that Christianity was the right way for me to seek God. Then a few years later I met a therapist who explained that I had been experiencing psychosis and I began to lean towards atheism again.

 

That's why accepting psychosis (or not) is the big question for me.

 

I suppose the fact that almost everybody I've talked to (Christian, atheist, pagan, ...) thinks my experiences were psychosis should convince me too, but I'm not there yet.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Christian Testimonials get regarded as stupid and non essential

 

But to the OP if you are.not judgemental like others...here is mine

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64323-christiantyatheismnow-you-see-menow-you-dont/#entry987103

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

I think our.experience can be so powerful to change who we are and behavior why can't it be submitted as evidence. Sure everyone has different experiences and.so.experience dont always determine truth but it just.because it has the possibility of being false does mean all.experiences are not true and cant be used as.evidence

[moanareina]

I think our.experience can be so powerful to change who we are and behavior why can't it be submitted as evidence. Sure everyone has different experiences and.so.experience dont always determine truth but it just.because it has the possibility of being false does mean all.experiences are not true and cant be used as.evidence

 

Of course your experiences can be so powerful to change who you are and your behavior. Now the problem with this is...it is not really an evidence for your God...because if so, there would be evidence for other gods too, since this is not a unique thing to Christianity...and therefore Christianity would be proven wrong by its own evidence...

 

Have you ever heard about the born again experience? You can find material on your own but just in case I looked it up for you. Enjoy watching:

 

 

So this experience that is so powerful to change who you are and your behavior isn't evidence for any God. But it is evidence that humans can have life changing experiences that are triggered by a various of things and people. It is evidence of how amazing and crazy at the same time our brains are. It is evidence that we can be deluded if we buy in to mythology and God tales...

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Correct as I mentioned experience alone doesn't mean truth but it has the possibility to be. Also Similarities do not erase truth

[Guest]

I think our.experience can be so powerful to change who we are and behavior why can't it be submitted as evidence. Sure everyone has different experiences and.so.experience dont always determine truth but it just.because it has the possibility of being false does mean all.experiences are not true and cant be used as.evidence

 

Because evidence must be factual from all aspects.  "Truth" is a subjective term whereas fact describes something more concrete (at least to my ears it does).  If something is only true sometimes or for some people, it can only be evidence for that occasion or purpose.  It can not be used in an effort to prove a god because that extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.  In other words, it requires evidence that is factual in all areas, for all people, and can be objectively proven.

 

"Experience" is too fickle to be evidence of much of anything but your own perceptions.  

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

the court of law use experience and testimony all the time, again it CAN be used as evidence in certain situations

[directionless]

Christian Testimonials get regarded as stupid and non essential

 

But to the OP if you are.not judgemental like others...here is mine

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64323-christiantyatheismnow-you-see-menow-you-dont/#entry987103

 

I think our.experience can be so powerful to change who we are and behavior why can't it be submitted as evidence. Sure everyone has different experiences and.so.experience dont always determine truth but it just.because it has the possibility of being false does mean all.experiences are not true and cant be used as.evidence

I agree. Maybe an analogy would be if we were judging between two restaurants and we only talked about typos on the menus instead of how the food tastes. Debating a literal interpretation of theology and the Bible is easier because it is more objective, but it overlooks the actual forces that cause many people to believe or disbelieve.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

interesting directionless i like where your going with that

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

i use testimonials all the time, i get alot of backlash when i do but i still do it because i find it more communative of ones reasons for doing things. Even in normal life if i say he buy this toy because it has x and x and x, but if i told him how the toy has impacting a childs life and a story, it shows what it can DO, rather then just stating what it can do people like to see results not numbers

[moanareina]

i use testimonials all the time, i get alot of backlash when i do but i still do it because i find it more communative of ones reasons for doing things. Even in normal life if i say he buy this toy because it has x and x and x, but if i told him how the toy has impacting a childs life and a story, it shows what it can DO, rather then just stating what it can do people like to see results not numbers

 

Yeah, but you would be a complete fool if you bought the toy just taking the other person's words at face value and then be mad if you would not see the results he was talking about with your own child...

 

A testimony might bring an interest to something, but if you take a decision by a testimony without testing if there really is truth you are a fool.

[moanareina]

Correct as I mentioned experience alone doesn't mean truth but it has the possibility to be. Also Similarities do not erase truth

 

So how do you find out? Who speaks the truth? Have you actually watched the video?

How do you know which testimony contains more truth then the other?

[Orbit]

Apologists don't use testimonials because they know they are not evidence. "Because I said so" isn't compelling or logical.

[directionless]

Because evidence must be factual from all aspects. "Truth" is a subjective term whereas fact describes something more concrete (at least to my ears it does). If something is only true sometimes or for some people, it can only be evidence for that occasion or purpose. It can not be used in an effort to prove a god because that extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. In other words, it requires evidence that is factual in all areas, for all people, and can be objectively proven.

 

"Experience" is too fickle to be evidence of much of anything but your own perceptions.

So how do you find out? Who speaks the truth? Have you actually watched the video?

How do you know which testimony contains more truth then the other?

Apologists don't use testimonials because they know they are not evidence. "Because I said so" isn't compelling or logical.

What is the alternative evidence - bible quotes? Even if the Bible made sense and did not contradict itself, it would still be nothing but a book. I prefer to hear what Christians experience personally. That isn't conclusive evidence for God's existence, but it helps explain why people continue in their faith.

 

Also, it's possible that apparent experiences of God would form a pattern that suggests a real phenomena.

 

I don't understand why apologists seem to focus on explaining Christianity and proving that it works logically. Testimonies are the measurements that connect the abstractions with reality.

 

(I mean "God" in the most general way - not necessarily "Biblegod".)

[Orbit]

A pattern might mean there in an underlying brain abnormality, not that God is real.

[directionless]

A pattern might mean there in an underlying brain abnormality, not that God is real.

That is true, but I suppose we could look for that brain abnormality.

 

Let's say I was a ufologist, but I only cared about demonstrating that an extraterrestrial civilization could theoretically visit Earth.

Or let's say I was an anti-ufologist skeptic, but I only cared about proving the impossibility of ETs visiting Earth.

 

I prefer to gather data on UFO sightings and look for patterns. That seems more direct.

 

Listening to testimonials is analogous to listening to UFO reports.

[moanareina]

 

A pattern might mean there in an underlying brain abnormality, not that God is real.

That is true, but I suppose we could look for that brain abnormality.

 

Let's say I was a ufologist, but I only cared about demonstrating that an extraterrestrial civilization could theoretically visit Earth.

Or let's say I was an anti-ufologist skeptic, but I only cared about proving the impossibility of ETs visiting Earth.

 

I prefer to gather data on UFO sightings and look for patterns. That seems more direct.

 

Listening to testimonials is analogous to listening to UFO reports.

 

 

Well then here is my testimony:

 

Yesterday as I was driving, on my way home from another late shift, all of a sudden I saw some bright light. It came closer and then it just went off in the sky.

Later on this night, as I lay in bed and tried to sleep there came the same light and entered my room. As I sat up, fully awake, I stared into the eyes of some weird looking being. They made weird noises, I guess that's their language, I guess they talk on another frequency because I could hear they where communicating but I could not distinguish their tone of voice or words or anything. Of course I was quite afraid but I also felt excited. What a great thing to finally have met life from outer space. They left and due to their advanced technology they left no trace. So unfortunately I have nothing to show you about it that would proof it was real. But man I tell you, it was as real as I am sitting here and writing down this words. And I am looking forward to their next visit, hope they will come again because I really am eager to build a relationship that will serve humanity. And who knows, maybe they will let me visit their planet too?

[ExCBooster]

Ah, testimonials. The thing is, in order to convince and convert people, Christians have to prove that specifically their version is the right one. Testimonials make for very weak tools because they're not exclusive to Christianity. (Sorry, Christians, despite what you've been told, it's true, and I'm not going to give your story any special weight, just because it's Christian - that's special pleading, and while it works for apologists trying to shepherd the flock, this only works for people who are already willing to give you a massive pass and hold you to lower standards of proof than anyone else. I find this tactic of ignoring other people's evidence with the same validity as your own to be very insulting to the intelligence of the "target" of the argument. Don't do it. It loses you points, immediately, because it's basically an admission that you can't win on the strength of your evidence. Expecting people to hold your evidence to a lower standard of proof in an argument is like entering a race, on the condition that you're allowed to win, automatically, because you're such a weak runner.) Anyone from any religion or walk of life that I've ever talked to has some story for why they believe (or don't) whatever it is that they do.

 

On top of that, Christians ask me to believe in a God that is deeply invested in human affairs, and has a similar idea of good and evil that we do - God supposedly invented it, after all. This becomes a fatal weakness in using testimonials: I won't be convinced, I don't care what God's done for you, or turned your life around, until other prayers go answered, too. No personal problem anyone has measures up to things like, you know, malaria, or polio. So, you were a Satan worshipping drug addict, and Jesus saved you? That's nice... CHILDREN STARVE. Every minute of every day. Asking me to take testimonials seriously, or even prayer, is truly morally repugnant to me on a very visceral level. It's just absurdly selfish and myopic.

[directionless]

Well then here is my testimony:

 

Yesterday as I was driving, on my way home from another late shift, all of a sudden I saw some bright light. It came closer and then it just went off in the sky.

Later on this night, as I lay in bed and tried to sleep there came the same light and entered my room. As I sat up, fully awake, I stared into the eyes of some weird looking being. They made weird noises, I guess that's their language, I guess they talk on another frequency because I could hear they where communicating but I could not distinguish their tone of voice or words or anything. Of course I was quite afraid but I also felt excited. What a great thing to finally have met life from outer space. They left and due to their advanced technology they left no trace. So unfortunately I have nothing to show you about it that would proof it was real. But man I tell you, it was as real as I am sitting here and writing down this words. And I am looking forward to their next visit, hope they will come again because I really am eager to build a relationship that will serve humanity. And who knows, maybe they will let me visit their planet too?

Let's take look at the response of three people to your experience:

 

(1) You: You know you aren't hoaxing (assuming you aren't hoaxing ), so maybe it happened like you remember, maybe a portion of it was hallucination, maybe all of it was hallucination. But I could understand why this experience might cause you to believe in ET visitation.

 

(2) A close friend: The friend probably knows you aren't hoaxing, so his/her response might be similar to yours but not quite as strong. I would understand why your friend might believe in ET visitation after hearing your testimony.

 

(3) Me: I don't know if you are hoaxing, so probably I dismiss your testimony. I might research to find if there are independent witnesses to the light in the sky. I might ask you to take a polygraph test. I might look for trends. Are you the tenth person to report something like that in your area? So there is something to work with but not too much. Without some more evidence I would not believe in ET visitation based on your testimony.

 

Let's compare this with the approach of the Christian apologist who says "Here is a book called the Bible and this is what it says therefore you should believe." How is that more persuasive than listening to testimonials?

 

Contrast that with a Christian apologist who gives a testimonial. He/she says, "This is what I experienced and it made me curious about Christianity, then I experienced more and more and believe more and more." At least I can understand why that person believes. I might not believe based on this testimonial, but it would be more persuasive than quoting from the Bible when I have no reason at all to believe the Bible.

 

Also the experiences are a key factor in Christian faith. I don't necessarily believe the testimonial but it helps me understand the apologist better.

[directionless]

Ah, testimonials. The thing is, in order to convince and convert people, Christians have to prove that specifically their version is the right one. Testimonials make for very weak tools because they're not exclusive to Christianity. (Sorry, Christians, despite what you've been told, it's true, and I'm not going to give your story any special weight, just because it's Christian - that's special pleading, and while it works for apologists trying to shepherd the flock, this only works for people who are already willing to give you a massive pass and hold you to lower standards of proof than anyone else. I find this tactic of ignoring other people's evidence with the same validity as your own to be very insulting to the intelligence of the "target" of the argument. Don't do it. It loses you points, immediately, because it's basically an admission that you can't win on the strength of your evidence. Expecting people to hold your evidence to a lower standard of proof in an argument is like entering a race, on the condition that you're allowed to win, automatically, because you're such a weak runner.) Anyone from any religion or walk of life that I've ever talked to has some story for why they believe (or don't) whatever it is that they do.

 

On top of that, Christians ask me to believe in a God that is deeply invested in human affairs, and has a similar idea of good and evil that we do - God supposedly invented it, after all. This becomes a fatal weakness in using testimonials: I won't be convinced, I don't care what God's done for you, or turned your life around, until other prayers go answered, too. No personal problem anyone has measures up to things like, you know, malaria, or polio. So, you were a Satan worshipping drug addict, and Jesus saved you? That's nice... CHILDREN STARVE. Every minute of every day. Asking me to take testimonials seriously, or even prayer, is truly morally repugnant to me on a very visceral level. It's just absurdly selfish and myopic.

You and I are trying to use the testimonials to answer different questions.

 

You are saying that the Bible and Biblegod contradict the suffering we see in this world, therefore testimonials of Biblegod experiences cannot possibly prove Biblegod. I agree with that.

 

What I'm saying is that maybe the testimonials prove something else. Maybe the testimonials prove another type of God. Maybe the testimonials tell us something about psychology. These testimonials definitely help us understand why the Christian believes. Also these testimonials help us understand the effect of Christianity on Christians.

[ironhorse]

I like to read testimonials. I've read several on this site in the Testimonies of Former Christians and  

Ex-Christian Spirituality Forums. Its people sharing something intimate and extremely personal.

 

I don't read them with a desire to ask them to prove what they believe or mock them.

 

To repeatedly use the argument of silence fallacy, the idea that because there is no evidence

for something, it must not exist, gets old.  

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I like to read testimonials. I've read several on this site in the Testimonies of Former Christians and  

Ex-Christian Spirituality Forums. Its people sharing something intimate and extremely personal.

 

I don't read them with a desire to ask them to prove what they believe or mock them.

 

To repeatedly use the argument of silence fallacy, the idea that because there is no evidence

for something, it must not exist, gets old.  

LMAO!

[moanareina]

I like to read testimonials. I've read several on this site in the Testimonies of Former Christians and  

Ex-Christian Spirituality Forums. Its people sharing something intimate and extremely personal.

 

I don't read them with a desire to ask them to prove what they believe or mock them.

 

To repeatedly use the argument of silence fallacy, the idea that because there is no evidence

for something, it must not exist, gets old.  

 

I would say the difference is...that Christians think a testimony is proof for their God and that is WHY they tell their testimony...to convince...to get their point across...to "save" people. It hardly ever is to just have an honest talk about what troubles them deep down, about what they struggle with, about what they are confused about etc. That kind of talk is called prayer request...because that is not up for discussion, it is left for prayer. While people on this site tell their testimony to tell their story and not to support any believe system. If you don't get that...ah, I know you chose not to...

[moanareina]

 

Well then here is my testimony:

 

Yesterday as I was driving, on my way home from another late shift, all of a sudden I saw some bright light. It came closer and then it just went off in the sky.

Later on this night, as I lay in bed and tried to sleep there came the same light and entered my room. As I sat up, fully awake, I stared into the eyes of some weird looking being. They made weird noises, I guess that's their language, I guess they talk on another frequency because I could hear they where communicating but I could not distinguish their tone of voice or words or anything. Of course I was quite afraid but I also felt excited. What a great thing to finally have met life from outer space. They left and due to their advanced technology they left no trace. So unfortunately I have nothing to show you about it that would proof it was real. But man I tell you, it was as real as I am sitting here and writing down this words. And I am looking forward to their next visit, hope they will come again because I really am eager to build a relationship that will serve humanity. And who knows, maybe they will let me visit their planet too?

Let's take look at the response of three people to your experience:

 

(1) You: You know you aren't hoaxing (assuming you aren't hoaxing ), so maybe it happened like you remember, maybe a portion of it was hallucination, maybe all of it was hallucination. But I could understand why this experience might cause you to believe in ET visitation.

 

(2) A close friend: The friend probably knows you aren't hoaxing, so his/her response might be similar to yours but not quite as strong. I would understand why your friend might believe in ET visitation after hearing your testimony.

 

(3) Me: I don't know if you are hoaxing, so probably I dismiss your testimony. I might research to find if there are independent witnesses to the light in the sky. I might ask you to take a polygraph test. I might look for trends. Are you the tenth person to report something like that in your area? So there is something to work with but not too much. Without some more evidence I would not believe in ET visitation based on your testimony.

 

Let's compare this with the approach of the Christian apologist who says "Here is a book called the Bible and this is what it says therefore you should believe." How is that more persuasive than listening to testimonials?

 

Contrast that with a Christian apologist who gives a testimonial. He/she says, "This is what I experienced and it made me curious about Christianity, then I experienced more and more and believe more and more." At least I can understand why that person believes. I might not believe based on this testimonial, but it would be more persuasive than quoting from the Bible when I have no reason at all to believe the Bible.

 

Also the experiences are a key factor in Christian faith. I don't necessarily believe the testimonial but it helps me understand the apologist better.

 

 

Of course I am not hoaxing. You know, just yesterday I turned on the radio and while searching for a station I tuned in a channel that made the same kind of sounds the aliens where using to communicate. I always wondered what those noises where about. Now I KNOW  .

 

So you mean you want to understand why apologists come up with their answers? And you think testimonies would help? Do you not see how their minds work with all the Christians who are here on this site? My guess they don't use testimony is that they are aware that a testimony is not really supporting their case. It takes away from their credibility.