The Big Question

[ironhorse]

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

 

(Krauss and bible stuff removed to improve readability)

Is this the big question for you? Do you struggle with it? Do you have doubts?

 

 

You may or may not agree with the answer I have accepted.

It is a question many have disagreed with and where the answer goes

takes many in different directions. 

If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and

Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be

no more.

 

We all tend to be dead for a third of our 'life' anyway. We gladly surrender to the death of waking experience every night for 8 hours (well, more like 6  because my dogs wake me up at the crack of dawn). So I'm dead for a while every day. Why should I worry about being perma-dead? Christianity likes to attach fear to death because it is a selling point for Jesus. I have decided to reprogram my thinking regarding death. First, remove the fear. Death happens to everyone. At the moment I dont particularly care about an afterlife but I have one set up in my head just in case. It isnt a Christian-based afterlife so there's no fear involved. My afterlife system has no hell, nor judgment, though it might be a private club. :-)

 

So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life?

Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from?

 

The question is irrelevant to me. It's nice that theologians and scientists are researching the question but I doubt any answer would affect me much.

 

The only thing I have close to proving God exists is the world and universe I see.

 

As a Christian one must constantly obsess about Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. One point of obsession then is to attribute everything in existence to God. From a logical point of view, "Here's the universe. It's big and wondrous, therefore God must have created it" is non-sequitur. Why does something 'fascinating' have to have 'God musta done that' attached to it? "Wow , look at the Grand Canyon! God is the ultimate architect!  Wow, look at the heads on Mount Rushmore, God is the ultimate....oh wait, men sculpted that."

 

I came to believe the most reasonable explanation of God and what that means  the Christian message.

 

To each his own. I'm glad for you. But I don't really need an explanation. I can enjoy the universe without attaching God to it. Have you ever just enjoyed wondering  about something for the sake of wondering? Not having an answer to wondrous things is half the fun of being alive!

 

(Any questions I have asked in this post are just for your consideration. I'm not looking for you to post answers to them.)

 

 

I'm not going to dismiss your questions or comments.

You make some good ones. 

 

"Is this the big question for you? Do you struggle with it? Do you have doubts?"

 

It is to me. I have this bad habit of wondering about things, so it naturally ended up with the question of God.

 

I did struggle in my late teens and twenties. I have mentioned that before.

 

No doubts now. None at all about God.

Although I believe in Christ and the message, the totality of God is a wonderful mystery to me.

I don't know much, but I know God loves me.

 

"Why should I worry about being perma-dead?"

 

My thoughts exactly if God does not exists. No worries at all. It's lights out.

A fear of death or a desire for an afterlife were not the reasons I came to believe in God.

 

"The question is irrelevant to me. It's nice that theologians and scientists are researching the question but I doubt any answer would affect me much."

 

I respect your view. The question of whether it is relevant is very subjective.

 

"Why does something 'fascinating' have to have 'God musta done that' attached to it?"

 

 I agree. An atheist can be fascinated by the wonder of bees or flowers.

 

To each his own. I'm glad for you.

 

Thank you and thank you for your questions and comments.

[ironhorse]

Does the God of the Bible exist? Why, no. No he doesn't. I'm glad we cleared that up.

 

I guess the difference is that I am only saying I believe the God of the Bible exist. 

I'm not saying we have all agreed he does.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

 

 

In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.

I would argue that this statement is not entirely accurate.

 

Maybe I'm being dense, but that seems very cryptic to me.

 

I think Prof means belief is not a choice, and possibly also that childhood indoctrination is a big factor.

 

O.k. I agree that childhood indoctrination is a very big factor.

 

 

Yeah, why didn't Ironhorse "choose" to believe in Zeus, or Odin,  or Ra,  or Bender?

 

 

 

Because of all the belief systems in the world the Christian message made the most sense to me.

[ironhorse]

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

I don't think there is one big question in life, there are many, and I don't see why the existence of any god or the god of the bible would be the biggest question.  If a person experienced xian childhood indoctrination they may well see this as "the big question" though.

 

If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and

Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be

no more.

Fear of not existing after death is one of the reasons humans invented afterlife concepts.  It is not, however, an insurmountable fear.  Many of us are relaxed about the prospect and enjoy each day we have, making the most out of life.

 

In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.

...I came to believe the most reasonable explanation of God and what that means  the Christian message.

It is no surprise that you came to believe this after being raised by xians, including your Baptist pastor father.  Belief is not a choice.  But a person can choose to examine their beliefs using logic and reason, and can choose to only believe in things that are supported by evidence.  It's interesting how often a person will go through this process and arrive at the conclusion that not existing after death is not something to be feared.

 

 

 

 

 

"I don't think there is one big question in life, there are many, and I don't see why the existence of any god or the god of the bible would be the biggest question.  If a person experienced xian childhood indoctrination they may well see this as "the big question" though."

 

I agree there are many questions in life, but I do think the question of God is the big one.

 

Concerning indoctrination:  It would be a struggle for a person subjugated to a certain religious indoctrination from early childhood

to ask a question about God.

 

"Fear of not existing after death is one of the reasons humans invented afterlife concepts."

 

That might be true for some. My questioning of God was not based on a fear of death, but truth.

 

"It is no surprise that you came to believe this after being raised by xians, including your Baptist pastor father.  Belief is not a choice.  But a person can choose to examine their beliefs using logic and reason, and can choose to only believe in things that are supported by evidence.  It's interesting how often a person will go through this process and arrive at the conclusion that not existing after death is not something to be feared."

 

I was raised to question everything. I have said this and told my story several times here.

 

Belief was a choice for me as it is for every person.

 

I don't know what evidence you require, but to me the thousands and thousands of different insects trekking the ground to the thousand upon thousands of different birds flying the skies and all the creatures between are enough to speak of a Creator to me.

[ironhorse]

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

Yes, IH, "God" does exist.

He exists inside your mind.

"God" is a product of your Id, Ego, and Superego.

That is your holy trinity, projected from your own human psyche,

colored and tailored by your cultural, social, and experiential constructs.

"God" exists, and you have created him.

 

IH, I posted this to you on another thread about a week ago:

 

"Deep inside, you know God is not real. Humanity is real. Like every other God-believer, your God is a projection of your human psyche trying to work out the complexities of human existence, human nature, and human morality. And that's really why you're here IH, even if you consciously won't admit it."

 

Keep digging IH, and you might eventually get to ... yourself.

 

 

 

Should I accept your evaluation of my beliefs?

I don't know what you believe.

 

I'm here to try to present the Christian message and faith.

Whether people believe anything I say is up to them.

[ironhorse]

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

I think the bigger question is "what should I do with my life, the only life I have?" Let's not spoil it or waste it. Let's make it something useful, God or no-God.

 

 

 

I agree that is a very important question and to ignore it and not act on it one can end up with a life wasted.

 

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans."

-~John Lennon

[ironhorse]

The next Big Question.

 

Which is more important to Ironhorse: making good on his promises to answer ALL the questions put to him or making another Sunday Dispatch tomorrow?

 

I'm trying to do both.

[sdelsolray]

Summary:

 

1)  Ironhorse's definition of God:  creator and ruler of the universe.

 

2)  Why Ironhorse chose the Christian God:  because it makes the most sense because of the Bible.

 

3)  Why Ironhorse believes in this God:  because of the diversity of carbon based of life on the plant Earth.

 

Got anything else?

[midniterider]

To me I first started with just a general definition of God as the creator and ruler of the universe.

I started there because I thought it would be better than just trying to start with just one name and

message of a deity.

After that I narrowed it down to the God expressed in the Bible.

 

 

Please describe this narrowing down process if you wish.

 

It seems that Christianity is the easy choice in the USA. There are Christian churches everywhere. If you want to have fellowship in person with fellow believers then Christianity is the most convenient choice.  I suppose one could visit the synagogue as well, or the Islamic mosque, though there'd be some 'esplainin' to do to the Christian family members if you went to a non-Christian church (and lived in the USA).

[ironhorse]

Here's the Big Question as far as I'm concerned:  So what?  

 

If definitive evidence of the existence of a god were suddenly produced tomorrow, would it change my daily commute?  Would my salary increase?  Would my tap water suddenly be turned into whiskey?  Would I suddenly be compelled to shop for clothes at Dillards instead of Goodwill?  Would it alter my diet, or the volume of ethanol I consume?

 

How exactly would the daily minutiae of my life be transformed by proof of god's existence?  Given that "god" has contributed nothing to the mundane aspects of my personal existence, how would my life be any different because I suddenly had the evidence that he really is there?  

 

Or would god suddenly start actually doing something once his existence had been proved and he could no longer hide behind the delusion of "faith"?

 

Really, what difference does the existence or non-existence of god make?

 

"Here's the Big Question as far as I'm concerned:  So what?"

 

I will agree that is an expansion of the big question.

 

"If definitive evidence of the existence of a god were suddenly produced tomorrow, would it change my daily commute?  Would my salary increase?  Would my tap water suddenly be turned into whiskey?  Would I suddenly be compelled to shop for clothes at Dillards instead of Goodwill?  Would it alter my diet, or the volume of ethanol I consume?"

 

I see your point, but added material things or miracle interventions in my life are not what I am looking for.

Nor the absent or lack of them influence my belief in God.

 

"Or would god suddenly start actually doing something once his existence had been proved and he could no longer hide behind the delusion of "faith"?

 

I believe God is doing more than I can ever imagine right now.

 

What do you want God to do? Intervene constantly in your daily life?

[sdelsolray]

Ironhorse,

 

Your "beliefs" are not relevant, at least to the question you presented in the OP, "Does God exist?"

 

Try turning off your egotistical and self-centered desire to express your religious beliefs.  I don't care what you believe.  What's left after that?  Do you have a rational argument?  Do you have evidence to support a rational argument?  If so, please present it.

 

All here already are aware of what you believe.  I suspect no one cares what you believe, except you.

[ironhorse]

 

If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and

Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be

no more.

So, if I go with the thought that God does not exists what is the origin of life?

Where did the universe come from? Where did life come from?

 [snip]

 

The two following quotes I thought would be add more light on Krauss’ view.

“In his book, A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather than Nothing (2012), Krauss discusses the premise that something cannot come from nothing, which has often been used as an argument for the existence of an uncaused cause, or creator. He has since argued in a debate with John Ellis and Don Cupitt that the laws of physics allow for the universe to be created from nothing. "What would be the characteristics of a universe that was created from nothing, just with the laws of physics and without any supernatural shenanigans? The characteristics of the universe would be precisely those of the ones we live in."  In an interview with The Atlantic, however, he states that he has never claimed that "questions about origins are over." According to Krauss, "I don't ever claim to resolve that infinite regress of why-why-why-why-why; as far as I'm concerned it's turtles all the way down."

snip

 

In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.

I can’t prove it. If I could I would have far more knowledge and insight than Lawrence Kruaus. Plus, I would be a very rich author from my first book I would write tentatively Concrete Proof God Exists.

The only thing I have close to proving God exists is the world and universe I see.

I came to believe the most reasonable explanation of God and what that means  the Christian message.

Thanks for the stuff about Lawrence Krauss - interesting.

 

I would have patience with the above post, from which I've snipped some stuff, if it were your first, Ironhorse. After all that's been said at this point, I only conclude that the above is largely a waste. It is another of your faith affirmations. It doesn't advance the ball further downfield.

 

 

 

Yes, Krauss' stuff is interesting. Like I said before he put forth a good debate in the interview I heard.

 

"It is another of your faith affirmations."

 

It's not just mine but Krauss'.

 

When you push this whole debate into the tiniest hole, it always shouts back no proof.

Krauss is doing his best to prove it, but he admits so far that he can't explain it beyond proof.

 

Whatever you or I or others decide to believe concerning God and this universe...its faith.

[ironhorse]

There may be one or more gods and there might not be any deities whatsoever.

 

You mentioned Laurence Kraus. I heard an interview of him today. He said that to say God did it, whatever "it" may be is to answer nothing. He is right. To say God created the universe is to admit you have no idea how the universe came into existence and you are too apathetic to try and find the truth.

 

I hate I missed the interview. Can you cite the source?

I would love to hear it.

 

"To say God created the universe is to admit you have no idea how the universe came into existence and you are too apathetic to try and find the truth."

 

Are you quoting Krauss or your own thoughts?

[Astreja]

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

 

No, this isn't the big question.  It doesn't even rate in My Top 100.  In fact, I'm more concerned with questions like "Where do you want to go for coffee?" and "Should I clean the cat boxes now, or wait till I get back from the store?"

 

A much better, and much more useful question is "How do I make the most of my life and maximize happiness for myself and for others?"

[Roz]

Why do you behave like WLC, Ravi Zacharia, and other apologists?

By that I should be more specific and ask: why do you continue to sneak in your beliefs when asking the question "is there a god?"

 

You're right that we don't know if there are gods out there (and by gods I mean : a spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people : one of various spirits or beings worshipped in some religions http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god ).

 

The original question: "Does God exists?
This, I think, is the big question in life."

 

I believe that's very easy to answer.  No, your particular god does not exist.  People notice when you make god into a proper noun. 

 

There's no proof that exodus happened (2.5 million hebrews wandering the dessert?  no trace of any kind of them)

There's no proof that the census of Qirinius happened (people having to travel to the lands of their 1000yr old ancestors?  uh huh...)

There's tons of major contradictions in the very gospels of the book, and it took centuries for the books to be canonized

 

We could go on and on but you yourself freely admit that you don't have a damn clue on a great deal of them.  Yet you still come here wishing for people to accept the fiction called christianity.

 

For the last time, we don't know if any gods exist.  However, I for one have seen enough evidence that your particular monotheistic god and religion were works of fiction.

 

Does (the christian) God exist?  No.

[ironhorse]

 

 

Do you understand that there's 1 very big leap from saying:

A god exists to just 1 solitary god exists

 

Do you understand that there's another very big leap from saying:

1 solitary god exists to 'it's the god of the bible'

 

 

Agree.

 

Just as it is a leap of faith to say many gods exists

 

or Para Brahman

 

or Allah exists.

 

 

 

Perhaps a leap of faith is asking to be wrong.

 

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

If I place faith in something, how can I be asking to be proven wrong?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

The Big Question

Does God exists?

This, I think, is the big question in life.

I don't think there is one big question in life, there are many, and I don't see why the existence of any god or the god of the bible would be the biggest question.  If a person experienced xian childhood indoctrination they may well see this as "the big question" though.

 

If God does not exists then all I will ever experience and

Know will be contained in the few short years of my life and after my death I will be

no more.

Fear of not existing after death is one of the reasons humans invented afterlife concepts.  It is not, however, an insurmountable fear.  Many of us are relaxed about the prospect and enjoy each day we have, making the most out of life.

 

In my life, I have chosen to believe there is a God.

...I came to believe the most reasonable explanation of God and what that means  the Christian message.

It is no surprise that you came to believe this after being raised by xians, including your Baptist pastor father.  Belief is not a choice.  But a person can choose to examine their beliefs using logic and reason, and can choose to only believe in things that are supported by evidence.  It's interesting how often a person will go through this process and arrive at the conclusion that not existing after death is not something to be feared.

 

 

 

 

 

"I don't think there is one big question in life, there are many, and I don't see why the existence of any god or the god of the bible would be the biggest question.  If a person experienced xian childhood indoctrination they may well see this as "the big question" though."

 

I agree there are many questions in life, but I do think the question of God is the big one.

 

Concerning indoctrination:  It would be a struggle for a person subjugated to a certain religious indoctrination from early childhood

to ask a question about God.

 

It was, for those of who have honestly asked questions about the beliefs we learned from our parents, but the struggle was worth it.  Your statement belies your own fears about doing the same.

 

"Fear of not existing after death is one of the reasons humans invented afterlife concepts."

 

That might be true for some. My questioning of God was not based on a fear of death, but truth.

 

It seems like the truth to you because it is the easiest option, being what you grew up with.  

 

"It is no surprise that you came to believe this after being raised by xians, including your Baptist pastor father.  Belief is not a choice.  But a person can choose to examine their beliefs using logic and reason, and can choose to only believe in things that are supported by evidence.  It's interesting how often a person will go through this process and arrive at the conclusion that not existing after death is not something to be feared."

 

I was raised to question everything. I have said this and told my story several times here.

 

Belief was a choice for me as it is for every person.

 

I don't know what evidence you require, but to me the thousands and thousands of different insects trekking the ground to the thousand upon thousands of different birds flying the skies and all the creatures between are enough to speak of a Creator to me.

 

I don't think you understand what "belief" means.  Perhaps you are thinking of your choice at age 12 to follow xianity, but that it is not the point at which you started believing the god of the bible existed.  That was more likely to have occurred at age 4-5.  Long before anyone's rational faculties have developed.  You wouldn't ask a 4 year old to make a decision on something important.  Why do you trust a belief you formed at such a young age?  

 

[directionless]

To say that God does nothing practical in our lives is going too far. Many people credit God with helping them in practical ways and giving them a positive outlook. There is a song "I saw the Light" that comes to mind. Apparently that's how it is sometimes - at least for a while.

 

Of course we can explain that as psychology, but others explain that as God.

 

I would like to see a study comparing the effects of different religions on believers. Even if atheism is correct, it would be interesting to discover ways to improve our happiness that might work for atheists.

[ironhorse]

I think the RNP is right. Whether god exists really doesn't matter. It has really been known by people who have been willing to use their intellect that the biblical god and other "revealed" gods do not exist for several hundred years. Further, there Is absolutely no evidence that any supernatural being has interfered in our world in any way that concerns life on earth. Speculation about the supernatural has brought more trouble on earth than all the diseases that ever existed. So let's let that rest for a few centuries for the good of us all. bill

 

 

"I think the RNP is right. Whether god exists really doesn't matter."

 

That's fine. You are in agreement.

 

"It has really been known by people who have been willing to use their intellect that the biblical god and other "revealed" gods do not exist for several hundred years."

 

You can't prove it in a test tube. This is why I love Krauss' honesty in his discussions on this topic.

 

"Speculation about the supernatural has brought more trouble on earth than all the diseases that ever existed."

 

Your opinion.

[par4dcourse]

Hmmm......Congress does nothing constructive in our lives. They like to smite certain mid eastern tribes. They allow hunger, injustice, and poverty to flourish.......The US Congress is god!!!

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Do you understand that there's 1 very big leap from saying:

A god exists to just 1 solitary god exists

 

Do you understand that there's another very big leap from saying:

1 solitary god exists to 'it's the god of the bible'

 

 

Agree.

 

Just as it is a leap of faith to say many gods exists

 

or Para Brahman

 

or Allah exists.

 

 

 

Perhaps a leap of faith is asking to be wrong.

 

 

 

Why do you say that?

 

If I place faith in something, how can I be asking to be proven wrong?

 

 

I say it because most of the time taking a leap of faith makes somebody wrong.  There are thousands of religions and most of them have to be wrong.

[Roz]

Remember this thread IH?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63985-the-story-that-tax-collectors-fear-most/#.U_AdxGOuB9k

 

You freely admit that you have no clue that your particular god's birth was even true or can be verified in any way.

Yet you still freely make that leap called faith that he did.

 

It's highly improbable that the Romans (or anyone really) used such an insane method of census and taxation that was used by the author of Luke.

Why then do you believe again?  Oh right, you believe because you want to believe because it feels good for you.

[Roz]

And remember IH, you're the one attempting to sell something.  You're the prosecution.  You have the burden of proof.

 

"You can't prove it doesn't exist!" is the worst argument ever when you present it in court / a boardroom / in class.

[ironhorse]

 

To me I first started with just a general definition of God as the creator and ruler of the universe.

I started there because I thought it would be better than just trying to start with just one name and

message of a deity.

After that I narrowed it down to the God expressed in the Bible.

 

 

Please describe this narrowing down process if you wish.

 

It seems that Christianity is the easy choice in the USA. There are Christian churches everywhere. If you want to have fellowship in person with fellow believers then Christianity is the most convenient choice.  I suppose one could visit the synagogue as well, or the Islamic mosque, though there'd be some 'esplainin' to do to the Christian family members if you went to a non-Christian church (and lived in the USA).

 

 

 

"Please describe this narrowing down process if you wish."

 

I will.

 

Give me a little time to get a reply together that might help explain more.

[Deidre]

Suppose one doesn't care if a god exists? Christianity is built on fear, and that god will smite us if we don't care or believe in his existence. But if a god exists, he may just "be." He or it may be nothing fathomable.

 

In other words, maybe the biggest question should really be "why should we care if a god exists?"