directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I'm single, but I had been going to church with my mother. I quit going to church in 2011. Yesterday my mother mentioned for the umpteenth time that somebody had asked about me. That person said she prays for me. There are several people in that church that apparently are worried that I quit. Then my mother said she didn't care if I went to church but... she wanted to be sure I still believed in Jesus so I wouldn't spend eternity in hell. My strategy up to now has been to keep silent so that my mother and others might believe I am simply doubting or lazy. It makes me depressed and angry that these stupid beliefs are causing my mother and other nice people to worry about me for no reason. It reminds me of how treaties used to be enforced by holding family members hostage. I'm beginning to think that I need to outright lie and maybe even start going to church somewhere. Unfortunately the only church that would satisfy some of these people is my old Eastern Orthodox church. I particularly hated going to church there, because the services are so long and ridiculous. I know most of you have it worse with spouses and children. Just wanted to vent my frustrations. I was very depressed about it yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deidre Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Some of my Christian friends still email me scripture and tell me they're praying for me. I reply now with "thank you." Simple, concise and then I move on with the day. I used to get annoyed etc...but we can't change these people, only how we react to them. As a Christian, I prayed for my atheist friends to see the "light," so I get it. They're coming from a good place, albeit misguided. I wouldn't attend another church to suit these ppl or anyone. They have to accept you for you and if they can't or won't...that is on them. Just my $.02 ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted August 18, 2014 Moderator Share Posted August 18, 2014 "Let's not go there" or "Don't worry about me, I'm fine" are both acceptable answers. Telling her that we all have our own ideas and that you would rather not discuss matters that divide people is polite and relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think you need to worry about only those things you can control. I've gone through the same issue with my family and old friends. I can't control what makes them worry. I'm certainly not going to lie to them to assuage their fears, which are brought on by something they choose to believe or at least refuse to question. A few years ago my mom brought up the issue. I generally avoided getting into details with my family and just told them I don't believe, but in this case, I wanted to try and at least address her fears of my burning in hell. It was a fruitless conversation as far as convincing her was concerned, but I was able to get across to her the fact that it bothered me that she fears for my soul and that I had done my homework and was not just acting rashly. I'm sure she still worries, but we cleared the air a bit and have returned to just not talking about it. Again, I can't control what she believes, but I'm not going to let that control my life. If that sounds selfish, just understand that my worry about her worries won't budge my beliefs, so why sweat it in the first place? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 18, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 18, 2014 You are dealing with people who have an irrational fear no different than having a fear of black cats. Unless you're a therapist, there's not much you can do for them. Pretending to be someone you are not or ridding your town of all black cats aren't reasonable responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 this is the problem that has a natural life span.after the passage of months and years few people will be asking about you anymore. at that point likely only your mother and a few others will be troubled. if they are concerned that God will lay a curse on you then that is an issue that they need to bring up with their god rather than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Directionless, Lots of good advice here. I'm in that place for myself now. I don't visit my parents very often, but I'm still trying to decide what I'm going to do about this issue if it comes up, whether to be out to them or not. They're in their 70s, and I think it's natural for us to be concerned about aging parents' responses to something like this. I know my parents were told a lot of lies about humanism, my mother in particular terrified about liberal components of Christiantiy being what she calls 'feel-good' and, paradoxically, 'secular humanist.' Rather than spend endless time trying to convince her that humanism is not hedonistic and societally destructive, I, too, am choosing my battles carefully. The real sad part about Hell is what it does to Christians, and I empathize with you. They are afraid person x is going to Hell, and they are simultaneously afraid they have done something to make that happen. This especially happens if that person dies. This, of course, is total wishful thinking on my part, but I hope to outlive everyone I know who's Christian, so the mafia boss does not have the last laugh at their expense. I agree it's not going to be helpful for you or I to worry about these people. But it does give me pause to choose my words wisely in certain situations. I'm not talking about the constant self-monitoring I did during my waning years in the churches, but actually just choosing words wisely because we're looking at what amounts to a unstable situation for them. And I don't know that everybody can deconvert, or even necessarily needs to. Poorer people, like my parents, who had it very rough as kids coming up in the 1940s / 1950s, and were handed a lot of answers from Francis Schafer and others starting in the 60s for why their world was undergoing a lot of changes, are just not in the same place mentally as we are. I know I was born after all the 60s rioting was over, after the Bay of Pigs incident, even after the Manson murders. Those were huge events which Christendom necessarily put to their advantage on people who were then young and vulnerable. Communists burn in hell, Manson family burns in hell, and all those people are "secular humanists" according to the Evangelical propaganda machine. I know you said your family isn't evangelical, but that brand has permeated itself everywhere, even if in small doses. I certainly don't have answers yet, and I understand what others are saying about don't worry yourself with things you can't control, and avoid problematic situations. I guess mainly I would say try to handle things in a strategic manner. If I ever do need to explain what's different about me now, I will try and do so in a rational manner, bearing in mind the types of propaganda she / they have been fed. It's a tough one, and I think there are no easy answers. I guess for me, I intend to navigate this one scenario at a time, take it like holding a management post, handling one crisis at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Some of my Christian friends still email me scripture and tell me they're praying for me. I reply now with "thank you." Simple, concise and then I move on with the day. I used to get annoyed etc...but we can't change these people, only how we react to them. As a Christian, I prayed for my atheist friends to see the "light," so I get it. They're coming from a good place, albeit misguided. I wouldn't attend another church to suit these ppl or anyone. They have to accept you for you and if they can't or won't...that is on them. Just my $.02 ... Thanks. I don't get so much annoyed, but I feel guilty that they are worried or might feel that they failed me in some way. Sometimes I wish I could create a clone of myself to go to church, so those people will be pleased that I am back. Some of those people are in their 90's and it makes me feel bad to think that I might have hurt their feelings by quitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 "Let's not go there" or "Don't worry about me, I'm fine" are both acceptable answers. Telling her that we all have our own ideas and that you would rather not discuss matters that divide people is polite and relaxed. Up until now my approach has been to say nothing and try to change the subject if my mother starts talking about these issues. I would rather that she think I am a Christian going to heaven that is simply unhappy with church. So I try to avoid saying anything positive or negative on these issues. Apparently this strategy isn't working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think you need to worry about only those things you can control. I've gone through the same issue with my family and old friends. I can't control what makes them worry. I'm certainly not going to lie to them to assuage their fears, which are brought on by something they choose to believe or at least refuse to question. A few years ago my mom brought up the issue. I generally avoided getting into details with my family and just told them I don't believe, but in this case, I wanted to try and at least address her fears of my burning in hell. It was a fruitless conversation as far as convincing her was concerned, but I was able to get across to her the fact that it bothered me that she fears for my soul and that I had done my homework and was not just acting rashly. I'm sure she still worries, but we cleared the air a bit and have returned to just not talking about it. Again, I can't control what she believes, but I'm not going to let that control my life. If that sounds selfish, just understand that my worry about her worries won't budge my beliefs, so why sweat it in the first place? Thanks. It sounds like you were more open than I would want to be at this point. Most of my adult life I've avoided church and I have grudgingly tried to accept atheism, but I have never talked about these feelings with anybody. So I think my brother and sister and mother have assumed that I have basic faith in Jesus but dislike church. Also, I don't want to say anything that would destabilize the faith of anybody (especially my mother). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Just ignore people who are worry warts. If need be, brake off contact for a long time. When they call you and ask you why you haven't talked, tell them you don't like the drama they bring every time you talk. Unfortunately, I've been trying to visit my mother several times per week, because my father died a few years ago and she feels isolated. I've felt isolated myself a few times in the past and it was no fun, so I do what I can to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 You are dealing with people who have an irrational fear no different than having a fear of black cats. Unless you're a therapist, there's not much you can do for them. Pretending to be someone you are not or ridding your town of all black cats aren't reasonable responses. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 this is the problem that has a natural life span.after the passage of months and years few people will be asking about you anymore. at that point likely only your mother and a few others will be troubled. if they are concerned that God will lay a curse on you then that is an issue that they need to bring up with their god rather than you. Some of these people have been showing concern for about 3 years now. Sometimes I imagine myself going back to church there like the prodigal son like a happy ending. But then I would only disappoint them again by not going back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Directionless, Lots of good advice here. I'm in that place for myself now. I don't visit my parents very often, but I'm still trying to decide what I'm going to do about this issue if it comes up, whether to be out to them or not. They're in their 70s, and I think it's natural for us to be concerned about aging parents' responses to something like this. I know my parents were told a lot of lies about humanism, my mother in particular terrified about liberal components of Christiantiy being what she calls 'feel-good' and, paradoxically, 'secular humanist.' Rather than spend endless time trying to convince her that humanism is not hedonistic and societally destructive, I, too, am choosing my battles carefully. The real sad part about Hell is what it does to Christians, and I empathize with you. They are afraid person x is going to Hell, and they are simultaneously afraid they have done something to make that happen. This especially happens if that person dies. This, of course, is total wishful thinking on my part, but I hope to outlive everyone I know who's Christian, so the mafia boss does not have the last laugh at their expense. I agree it's not going to be helpful for you or I to worry about these people. But it does give me pause to choose my words wisely in certain situations. I'm not talking about the constant self-monitoring I did during my waning years in the churches, but actually just choosing words wisely because we're looking at what amounts to a unstable situation for them. And I don't know that everybody can deconvert, or even necessarily needs to. Poorer people, like my parents, who had it very rough as kids coming up in the 1940s / 1950s, and were handed a lot of answers from Francis Schafer and others starting in the 60s for why their world was undergoing a lot of changes, are just not in the same place mentally as we are. I know I was born after all the 60s rioting was over, after the Bay of Pigs incident, even after the Manson murders. Those were huge events which Christendom necessarily put to their advantage on people who were then young and vulnerable. Communists burn in hell, Manson family burns in hell, and all those people are "secular humanists" according to the Evangelical propaganda machine. I know you said your family isn't evangelical, but that brand has permeated itself everywhere, even if in small doses. I certainly don't have answers yet, and I understand what others are saying about don't worry yourself with things you can't control, and avoid problematic situations. I guess mainly I would say try to handle things in a strategic manner. If I ever do need to explain what's different about me now, I will try and do so in a rational manner, bearing in mind the types of propaganda she / they have been fed. It's a tough one, and I think there are no easy answers. I guess for me, I intend to navigate this one scenario at a time, take it like holding a management post, handling one crisis at a time. Thanks, that is good advice. My mother was raised in the Christian denomination until she married. The Christian denomination seems to be similar to the Baptist denomination possibly. Maybe that isn't the best comparison, but my mother is definitely more of a conservative Christian and has been influenced by evangelical Christian media. She is in her 70s and I try not to challenge her ideas. Religion is very important to her, and it has become more important in the last 20 years. Almost all the decorations on her walls are Christian-related. LOL I was thinking this morning that I might go to the Christian store and buy some coffee mugs with bible verses and maybe a fish bumper sticker (to reassure anybody that might be worrying ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Aside from the religious question, has anyone had to deal with a medical issue? Crap, I blabbed something about it to my brother and he immediately calls my parents and clues them in so I get a call. It isn't anything serious. But I am thinking what if it were? Would I want all these people (who are very far away) to know everything? What would they legitimately have a right to know? Where would I draw the line. My brain goes nuts with stuff like this. I am a very private person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 "'I am vexed', he says, 'at being pitied.' Is it your doing that you are pitied, or the doing of those who pity you? Or again, does it rest with you to stop their pity? 'Yes, if I show them that I do not deserve their pity.' But is it in your power, or is it not, not to deserve pity? 'I think that it is in my power.' ... To what class of things does another man's opinion about you belong? 'To what is outside the will.' Then it concerns you not at all? 'Not at all.' While, then, you still allow yourself to be vexed and troubled at men's opinion, do you imagine that you have attained conviction as to what is good and evil? Will you not, then, let other men alone and become your own master and pupil?" -from the Discourses of Epictetus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I just tell my mom that I think church is boring, which is true. I spare her the atheism because she is too old and too religious to handle it. Let her die in peace, thinking I'm just a Presbyterian who's bored with church. Your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 directionless- Just noticed that you're a former Eastern Orthodox too. I know that the Orthodox are especially hostile towards "apostates" so I understand what you're dealing with. Please PM me any time if you'd like to chat more about Orthodox-specific stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Aside from the religious question, has anyone had to deal with a medical issue? Crap, I blabbed something about it to my brother and he immediately calls my parents and clues them in so I get a call. It isn't anything serious. But I am thinking what if it were? Would I want all these people (who are very far away) to know everything? What would they legitimately have a right to know? Where would I draw the line. My brain goes nuts with stuff like this. I am a very private person. I know exactly what you mean. If you tell a devout Christian about a problem, then there is a high probability that he/she will ask for prayer on your behalf from other Christians. It's almost like gossip even though the intentions are good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 I just tell my mom that I think church is boring, which is true. I spare her the atheism because she is too old and too religious to handle it. Let her die in peace, thinking I'm just a Presbyterian who's bored with church. Your mileage may vary. That's my strategy too. I think I need to find ways of appearing more Christian, so she isn't concerned enough to bring up the uncomfortable questions about my faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 directionless- Just noticed that you're a former Eastern Orthodox too. I know that the Orthodox are especially hostile towards "apostates" so I understand what you're dealing with. Please PM me any time if you'd like to chat more about Orthodox-specific stuff. Thanks, luckily my parish was very liberal and easy-going. The services were usually in english and the priest tried to hurry through the liturgy to finish in an hour. (I actually think the priest was a closet-atheist.) So I don't think there is any hostility towards me, but they feel genuinely concerned that I was so regular for two years and then suddenly quit. A couple of these people are in their 90's, so I hate to think of them wasting time worrying about me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 directionless-Just noticed that you're a former Eastern Orthodox too. I know that the Orthodox are especially hostile towards "apostates" so I understand what you're dealing with. Please PM me any time if you'd like to chat more about Orthodox-specific stuff.Thanks, luckily my parish was very liberal and easy-going. The services were usually in english and the priest tried to hurry through the liturgy to finish in an hour. (I actually think the priest was a closet-atheist.) So I don't think there is any hostility towards me, but they feel genuinely concerned that I was so regular for two years and then suddenly quit. A couple of these people are in their 90's, so I hate to think of them wasting time worrying about me. Got it- I should've said "can be hostile." I'm guessing you went to a GOARCH or OCA parish. I got to know the Ruskies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 directionless-Just noticed that you're a former Eastern Orthodox too. I know that the Orthodox are especially hostile towards "apostates" so I understand what you're dealing with. Please PM me any time if you'd like to chat more about Orthodox-specific stuff.Thanks, luckily my parish was very liberal and easy-going. The services were usually in english and the priest tried to hurry through the liturgy to finish in an hour. (I actually think the priest was a closet-atheist.) So I don't think there is any hostility towards me, but they feel genuinely concerned that I was so regular for two years and then suddenly quit. A couple of these people are in their 90's, so I hate to think of them wasting time worrying about me. Got it- I should've said "can be hostile." I'm guessing you went to a GOARCH or OCA parish. I got to know the Ruskies. I heard the Russian services sometimes go for three hours. (I could never put up with that. ) My church was Serbian, but it was in english and liberal and the services only lasted an hour. (Even an hour is a struggle for me, because I don't like going to church.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Also, I don't want to say anything that would destabilize the faith of anybody (especially my mother). Don't worry, for while a pretty much worthless attribute IMHO, faith is incredibly hard, if not virtually impossible to shake in most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Also, I don't want to say anything that would destabilize the faith of anybody (especially my mother). Don't worry, for while a pretty much worthless attribute IMHO, faith is incredibly hard, if not virtually impossible to shake in most people. That's a good point. I should know that from my own difficulties deconverting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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