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Goodbye Jesus

Xtians: Reasons For Belief?


Orbit

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

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Because jesus, that's why!

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Ah the sound of silence. Sounds like blind faith.

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Ah the sound of silence. Sounds like blind faith.

 

Maybe ironhorse will post a quote from a U2 song. And 1AcceptingAThiest1 might post... er... something.

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An old InterVarsity Christian Fellowship friend of mine from college is a seminary professor now.  He says that the faith of Christians rests on testimony that is recorded in the gospels, however much that testimony is presented via various rhetorical strategies of the gospel writers.  He thinks that "inerrancy" is a mistaken and misleading notion, but he does hold that testimony in the gospels, Acts and genuine Pauline epistles is reliable.  After that, one's own experience provides further assurances.

 

I'm not sure where he stands on the "testimony" angle of the historical parts of the OT, but I think he accepts a lot of it as, again, containing a historical core but presented under genre assumptions very different from the assumptions of modern historians.

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Because "God said it. I believe it. that settles it." I've even seen that saying on Christian tee shirts. I once challenged a Christian guy in a church parking lot about that on his shirt. I said something to him about using his reason and intellect to decide. I think he felt hurt that I criticized his shirt. :/

 

T-shirts have feelings too.

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I personally wish we had more theists both Christian and muslim here to debate. sometimes I wonder if they've all been banned. I renounced my Christian faith but I still have a spirituality and when there's something good in my life I oftentimes will thank God for it. when I meet a good person or somebody does something good for me I pray for that person and I give them a blessing ussually. I also intercede for God to change his/her mind and stop being insensitive dick.

 

I do this because there are many instances in the Bible where God was going to do something atrocious and an intersessor persuaded him not to and to repent of his bullshit , and he did! I accept most of Christian morality , just do not accept Christian theology.

The important thing to realize is that morality is not Xtian, it's human. We all know it is wrong to hurt others.

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Because "God said it. I believe it. that settles it." I've even seen that saying on Christian tee shirts. I once challenged a Christian guy in a church parking lot about that on his shirt. I said something to him about using his reason and intellect to decide. I think he felt hurt that I criticized his shirt. :/

 

I wonder if you can get a tee shirt that says, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it... Lol, not really; I'm not that gullible!"                                              

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sometimes I wonder if they've all been banned.

 

 

Only happens to the abusive ones.

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No answers? Curious... Such a simple question too.

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Not one Xtian has given even ONE reason for belief. Wow. Just "faith", huh?

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Not one Xtian has given even ONE reason for belief. Wow. Just "faith", huh?

No Orbit, When they arrive, they will also tell you that the bible is the word of the lord and it's 2,000 years old, so since it's that old and has been passed down through the ages.......it must be right!!! woohoo.gif

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There aren't too many Christians on this forum, but I asked a very similar question on a Christian forum and didn't get much response there either.

 

I don't understand the lack of response from Christians to these types of questions unless maybe they don't want to have meaningful personal experiences ridiculed by skeptics?

 

I don't know how they expect to persuade non-believers if all they do is quote the Bible.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

 

 

That doesn't tell us why you believe that it is the Judeo-Christian god. A different god could be responsible.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

 

Your "concrete evidence" is a common logical fallacy, an argument from incredulity aka argument from ignorance, and is often used by theists who rely solely on religious faith for their beliefs.

 

Put another way, it is not "concrete", nor is it "evidence".  It is merely an emotionally satisfying excuse, at least for you.

 

In addition, you support your excuse with another common logical fallacy, a strawman argument, with your "just randomly occurred" nonsense.

 

Your post does provide concrete evidence that your thinking is irrational.

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IH you should read The God Delusion. It explains in great detail why the universe doesn't need a creator.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

 

 

 

But that is simply faith dressed up to look like something else.

 

We have learned from science exactly how fertilized eggs develop into lifeforms and no God was ever observed.  And furthermore science has learned that if you tossed elements into the sea for eternity something else would happen.  You choose ignorance but that isn't a reason.

 

However at least you tried to answer so bravo for making an effort.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

 

 

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

 

 

That doesn't tell us why you believe that it is the Judeo-Christian god. A different god could be responsible.

 

 

 

You are right. I did not want to quote the Bible. 

 

I saw this question a day or so ago. I wanted to think about before I replied.

 

In answering I was trying to imagine I had been born and lived on an island or somewhere

that did not have any knowledge any religion. I was imagine how I would make sense out of these things I see.

I concluded, because being curious and questioning is just the way I'm wired, that would think a higher power created this world.

 

I had a friend once who believed it was a god but not the god of the Bible and I met people

who believe intelligent life from another planet either created us or planted the seeds for life.

 

Those theories can't be concretely proved beyond doubt anymore than my view that the God revealed in the Bible is correct.

There is a difference in observation science and science of origins. Observational can be concretely proved in a lab. The origin of life can't. No one was there.

 

When you get to square one is where one has to leap by faith one way or another way.  

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

What makes you think it is designed? Complexity? Complexity is not always a mark of design. Many times, simplicity is. Precise function? That is more subjective impression. Science has explained how complex molecules and organisms come to be, not at random, but very deterministically. There are a limited number of ways molecules interact. Therefore, life is not as random as you suggest.

 

The only way to recognize design is by contrasting it with something non-designed. If you think all of nature is designed, then what is you frame of reference? You have none! If an aboriginal person found a watch in the woods, the only way he might conclude it is designed is because it is unlike anything he has ever encountered in NATURE. If ALL of NATURE is designed, then there is nothing to contrast it with so no way to determine it is designed. We also have never witnessed a universe being designed and created, and have never interviewed a universe designer to learn how it's done. All you have is the APPEARANCE of design, and that is no indicator of anything. The earth, from our frame of reference, APPEARS flat, but further scientific observation and measurement over the centuries proved that it is not flat. Not only is it not flat, it is the exact opposite of flat! A sphere! If the truth can be opposite of our impressions, then the universe could be completely non-designed even though it APPEARS designed. Subjective impression is no evidence of anything.

 

Your "standing on the sea shore" analogy is a straw man because that's not how science hypothesizes it happened. True enough, we don't yet know exactly how the first amino acids combined to form the first organism. Science is getting closer. Lab studies have actually demonstrated how amino acids can naturally combine to form proteins under the right conditions. From there, it is not many steps to a self replicating organism. It may have been a chance event, may have been unlikely. But unlikely events do sometimes happen. Given how vast and how ancient the cosmos are, it is almost certain that such an unlikely event would eventually happen. But truthfully, we don't really know how likely or unlikely the occurrence of life by chance is. We have not examined even a real fraction of the cosmos to see how often life occurres. That would be the only way to actually determine the probability; any other methods is mere conjecture. We are discovering more and more life forms on our own planet that can live and thrive in very harsh conditions, even the vacuum of space! Life may not require a razors edge of precise parameters after all. Ultimately your argument is based on nothing more than subjective impression and a god of the gaps idea.

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In answering I was trying to imagine I had been born and lived on an island or somewhere

that did not have any knowledge any religion. I was imagine how I would make sense out of these things I see.

 

 

Instead why not answer like an educated person?  We live in the 21st century.  Biology is not a mystery.

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Christians:

Besides "faith", why exactly do you believe in Christianity? Do you have reasons for belief? What are they?

This earth and all the life it contains gives me concrete evidence that it has been designed. I can’t accept that all this brilliantly functioning life just randomly occurred.

If I filled a bucket with the twenty-five natural elements essential for life and stood by a sea shore tossing them into warm surf over and over from here to eternity; I don’t believe any life would ever develop.

That is my concrete reason I believe in God.

That doesn't tell us why you believe that it is the Judeo-Christian god. A different god could be responsible.

You are right. I did not want to quote the Bible.

 

I saw this question a day or so ago. I wanted to think about before I replied.

 

In answering I was trying to imagine I had been born and lived on an island or somewhere

that did not have any knowledge any religion. I was imagine how I would make sense out of these things I see.

I concluded, because being curious and questioning is just the way I'm wired, that would think a higher power created this world.

 

I had a friend once who believed it was a god but not the god of the Bible and I met people

who believe intelligent life from another planet either created us or planted the seeds for life.

 

Those theories can't be concretely proved beyond doubt anymore than my view that the God revealed in the Bible is correct.

There is a difference in observation science and science of origins. Observational can be concretely proved in a lab. The origin of life can't. No one was there.

 

When you get to square one is where one has to leap by faith one way or another way.

Wrong!!! A leap of faith is NEVER required. Scientific theories are known with varying degrees of certainty, but faith is never used to fill the gaps, never. If there are things we can't know , then there are just things we can't know. Also, there are things we can know with an extremely high degree of certainty by deductive reasoning without observation. Look up Mendeleev and how he predicted elements that had not yet been discovered. He predicted their measurements with greater accuracy than the observable measurements people made once they were actually discovered. When Mendeleev challenged those measurements, further tests by other scientists proved Mendeleev correct.
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I had a friend once who believed it was a god but not the god of the Bible and I met people

who believe intelligent life from another planet either created us or planted the seeds for life.

 

Those theories can't be concretely proved beyond doubt anymore than my view that the God revealed in the Bible is correct.

 

 

They are not theories, at least not scientific theories.  They are mere beliefs, including yours.  In any event, even if they were scientific theories (because they are supported by empirical relevant evidence), no scientific theory is ever "concretely proved beyond doubt" (your words).  That is because the scientific method contains the element of falsification, among other reasons.  The fact that you lack this basic understanding of science is quite informative.

 

There is a difference in observation science and science of origins. Observational can be concretely proved in a lab. The origin of life can't. No one was there.

 

 

You demonstrate a lack of understanding of science in general, and the scientific method in particular.  Perhaps you should spend time actually studying science instead of repeating misrepresentations and ignorance from the likes of Kirk Cameron, at al.  The fact that your repeat such nonsense is also informative.

 

When you get to square one is where one has to leap by faith one way or another way.  

 

See above.  Science does not do faith, and it doesn't believe. It asks questions, employs curiosity, forms hypotheses, etc.  It is perfectly comfortable saying, "I do not know".  Your attempt to equate science with religious faith is cheap, pathetic and frankly quite comical.  It also demonstrates the paucity of your intellect, or the duplicity of it.

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Orbit: I have read the "God Delusion"

 

 

mymistake: "We have learned from science exactly how fertilized eggs develop into lifeforms and no God was ever observed.  And furthermore science has learned that if you tossed elements into the sea for eternity something else would happen.  You choose ignorance but that isn't a reason."

 

-Yes, observational science shows much of how life works. I'm talking about what set up to wotk.

 

-I disagree that science has proved that putting elements together creates life. The last time I did a search for recent news, I did not find it.

 

 

Neverlandrut: We also have never witnessed a universe being designed and created, and have never interviewed a universe designer to learn how it's done."

 

Exactly no one saw it happened. That is why there is a point where observational science does not work. Why cant we agree on that fact. Whatever you want to believe is fine. I respect other points of view. 

 

mymistake: "Instead why not answer like an educated person?  We live in the 21st century.  Biology is not a mystery."

 

-I am trying to answer as an educated person.

 

- I know year it is. Can you give me that much credibility?

 

-I never said biology is a mystery. 

 

 

Neverlandrut: "Wrong!!! A leap of faith is NEVER required. Scientific theories are known with varying degrees of certainty, but faith is never used to fill the gaps, never."

 

-When you start at square one and ask what is the origin of matter, It takes faith to answer it one way or another. 

Have you read "A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather than Nothing" by physicist Lawrence Krauss?

 

 

sdelsoray: "Science does not do faith, and it doesn't believe. It asks questions, employs curiosity, forms hypotenuses, etc.  It is perfectly comfortable saying, "I do not know"."

 

-I never said science does faith. It indeed inquires and asks questions. That's great. I'm fine with saying

I don't know. I'm saying that we you start ti theorize about the origin of matter....we don't know.

 

-I have decided that there is a God behind it all. That is my faith. Can I prove it? No.

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sdelsoray: "Science does not do faith, and it doesn't believe. It asks questions, employs curiosity, forms hypotenuses, etc.  It is perfectly comfortable saying, "I do not know"."

 

-I never said science does faith.

 

Sure you did.  You stated, "When you get to square one is where one has to leap by faith one way or another way."  How else could such a statement be interpreted when science is being discussed?

 

 I'm fine with saying I don't know….

 

-I have decided that there is a God behind it all. That is my faith. Can I prove it? No.

Let's test these two statements.

 

Please read the following sentence and let us know if it is a correct statement (coming from you)):

 

I don't know if there is a God behind it all.

 

Are you "fine" with making the above statement?

 

 

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