Judaism And Crap Theology

[seven77]

I used to belong to a Messianic non-denominational church. They have their own special brand of beliefs. I have been exchanging emails with a friend who is still involved with the church since I left. She and I have issues and today I received a few gems that I thought might appease the hungry, roving lions here in the Den.

 

Chew away, hungry ones.

 

 

 

Judaism, I don't want to discuss that too much, but no we are not going to convert fully to Judaism. Saul (Paul) didn't advocate it. Yeshua (Jesus) didn't preach or teach against Judaism. He was Torah-observant. Saul was Torah-observant as well and did not make up his own rules (I mentioned him running a "successful gambit" in a previous email) to get Gentiles to convert to Christianity. That's all crap theology that most Christians believe and there's no point in discussing because you don't believe any of it anyway.

 

 

 

 

So what exactly did Paul advocate? (Submission to his cult and giving him your money, as far as I can tell.)

 

Did Jesus preach against Judaism? (He certainly was no fan of the Law and disregarded as he saw fit.)

 

Did Paul "bend the rules" in regard to circumcision and the Law in order to grow the early church?

 

What exactly is crap theology? Isn't that a bit of a double negative?

 

Is there a point in discussing one's faith with another person, even if they don't share it?

 

 

 

We aren't playing Torah buffet, cherrypicking or whatever - again Torah and Judaism are complex. It's like how there are rules for women, rules for men. Obviously, one does not apply to the other. Same for Gentiles and Jews. My family is learning to be Torah-observant, because it's hard to do and strange to most people when you have no background in it. You have to start somewhere, basically. I'm kosher, my husband is not. I can't make him not eat pork or shellfish or whatever - he has to decide for himself. G-d is about the heart and intentions - being Kosher and a douche is a bigger deal than slowly trying to incorporate the Torah out of genuine love for Him - he's not going to be pissed if I forget there's bacon on that salad if my intentions are right. I'm not doing this to be part of a club....

 

 

 

 

Hmm, it seems to me as if they are. We don't eat pork, but it's ok not to circumcise because we aren't really Jewish...unless we feel in our hearts that we should observe a particular part of the Torah. Then we are Torah-observant! See how that works?

 

In the end, it's only one's intentions that matter. Do you love Him? Are you following the Torah for Him? The Law really isn't important; it's about the heart, your feelings, and being deeply "in love" with a myth.

 

And yes, if you are in a church and you are surrounded by people who know and respect you, then you are in a club. Your continued acceptance in the Jew/Christian/Whatever Club is contingent upon you and yours staying in line with what is taught at the services and in the Torah classes and such. My primary struggle is that I just don't see why Messianicism is needed. It's not. You wanna follow Torah, be a Jew. Wanna follow Jesus, be a Christian. Quit playing mix n' match, cobbling together some bullshit beliefs that makes you feel better about being a rich white hipster living in the middle of a bunch cornfields.

 

 

 

The big issue is that Christians believe Yeshua abolished the Law. I believe that's not true, meaning we should be keeping it. [Personal content removed]...you're familiar with [friend's name] perspective (standard fundamental Christian stuff) - NOT what I believe, so that's all I'm going to say about that.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe that Yeshua (Jesus) existed. His character as presented in the NT seemed to be divided on the issue of the Law. What exactly is this mythical "standard fundamental Christian perspective" she seems to be implying? And more to the point, this only adds fuel to the fire of "if this shit is true, then why can't they all get on the same fucking page?"

 

Thoughts?

[ironhorse]

I believe God has three expressions of being: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

Three expressions of God, yet ONE.

 

It's a paradox. It's a bit of a mystery to me. I accept it by faith. It is taught in the scriptures.

Let "Us" make man in our image.

 

In the OT it was God the Father actively involved in the Jewish people and establishing a nation.

God did this to use humans to help in getting his message to the world.

 

In the NT God sent his son to compete this work and deliver the good news to all of God's love and plan to cure to ALL people ( by his sacrifice on the cross) this thing called sin ( errors, non-perfection, evil).

[par4dcourse]

Believe on brother. BTW, I've got this bridge in NYC, needs a little work but I can let you have it cheap........

[mymistake]

.

[seven77]

I believe God has three expressions of being: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

Three expressions of God, yet ONE.

 

It's a paradox. It's a bit of a mystery to me. I accept it by faith. It is taught in the scriptures.

Let "Us" make man in our image.

 

In the OT it was God the Father actively involved in the Jewish people and establishing a nation.

God did this to use humans to help in getting his message to the world.

 

In the NT God sent his son to compete this work and deliver the good news to all of God's love and plan to cure to ALL people ( by his sacrifice on the cross) this thing called sin ( errors, non-perfection, evil).

 

IH, please do not troll on my thread.

 

You have your very own designated sandbox full of business that you should be attending to right here:

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/64259-ironhorse-not-answered-your-questions-put-them-here-for-all-to-see/

 

Otherwise:

 

Your post is inane drivel that does not address any of my questions or topics covered in my OP. If you want to sermonize, create a thread entitled "Church of the One Man Band of Copy/Paste Bullshit Theology" and do it there.

 

Thanks,

seven77

 

-------

[mwc]

     So we should keep the law...but...it's okay if we don't really keep the law as long as we have good intentions?

 

     This opens up a lot of possibilities.  Not just accidentally eating bacon on salad but cool Robin Hood shit.  I can take from the rich as long as I *intend* to give to the poor.  Or, forget about that, maybe I can waste some scary looking dudes since I *intend* to protect my friends and family in the process?

 

     I imagine the only thing I can't do is gather sticks on the sabbath.  There's no excuse for that sort of behavior.

 

          mwc

[seven77]

     So we should keep the law...but...it's okay if we don't really keep the law as long as we have good intentions?

 

     This opens up a lot of possibilities.  Not just accidentally eating bacon on salad but cool Robin Hood shit.  I can take from the rich as long as I *intend* to give to the poor.  Or, forget about that, maybe I can waste some scary looking dudes since I *intend* to protect my friends and family in the process?

 

     I imagine the only thing I can't do is gather sticks on the sabbath.  There's no excuse for that sort of behavior.

 

          mwc

 

Pretty much. Faith is about the heart, how you feel, your submission to His will, and so on.

 

Intention is everything BUT only if your intentions honor Him. They [my former place of worship and those that follow the teachings of their leaders] believe in a doctrine [if you call it that] of "right living". Right living = living according to the teachings of Yeshua the Messiah and His chosen apostle, Saul. Your intentions are supposed to be in line with their teachings. Living according to the Torah [the parts that you like or that He speaks unto your heart] is just extra credit, so to speak.

 

Those whom I still talk to from my old church insist that I am simple viewing their beliefs through an incorrect lens.

• Yeshua didn't abolish the law; He fulfilled the law perfectly and then added to it, modified it according to the way things ought to be.
• Yeshua fulfilled all of the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah; Orthodox Jews got it wrong and most sects of Christianity don't understand the context of His messiahship, rendering their beliefs as uninformed garbage, basically. Non-believers are especially problematic, because they reject all of their supposed evidence for Yeshua and the perfectness of the Torah on the grounds that it is comprised of cherry-picked bullshit viewed as holy.

There is also an aura of superiority associated with their beliefs. That goes for most faiths, really. But in this case, they really do believe that the more Judaistic their practices, the closer to God they are. There is also a big to do about cleanliness. In their view, cleanliness is not merely physical, but refers to the supernaturally spiritual. "Right living" is the way by which they are made clean, their sins absolved more or less.

 

Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary.

 

I say if you want to be a Jew, convert to Judaism. If you want to believe in Jesus, be a Christian. You can't have a buffet line of Abrahamic Monotheism, claim to reject all religion [because religion contradicts faith that comes from the heart], and then turn around and say that it is right living with "good" intentions that really matters. That sort of thing is just as legalistic as Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam, only worse in my opinion because it is solely based upon the individual's heart [emotions, opinions].

 

As you pointed out, just because you intend to do something doesn't actually mean that you will. You could be Robin Hood in your intentions, but Robbin' People Blind in reality. You can claim to be open minded and understanding and even accepting of other faiths and beliefs in your intentions, but every bit as narrow-minded as the IBLP or other ultra-fundie denominations when confronted or challenged about matters of faith or belief in reality.

[Aries256]

I believe God has three expressions of being: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

Three expressions of God, yet ONE.

 

It's a paradox. It's a bit of a mystery to me. I accept it by faith. It is taught in the scriptures.

Let "Us" make man in our image.

 

In the OT it was God the Father actively involved in the Jewish people and establishing a nation.

God did this to use humans to help in getting his message to the world.

 

In the NT God sent his son to compete this work and deliver the good news to all of God's love and plan to cure to ALL people ( by his sacrifice on the cross) this thing called sin ( errors, non-perfection, evil).

And you don't see the load of bullshit this is?

[ironhorse]

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

[Roz]

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

[Ravenstar]

I'm still waiting for evidence Jesus actually existed… and who was there to record his anguish at Gethsemane? I thought everyone one else was asleep?

 

It's all so… mysterious.

 

[ironhorse]

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

[TrueFreedom]

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

What is it then?  What is "true Christianity?"

[Roz]

You've presented nothing which differentiates your own "IH" brand of christianity with other denominations of the religion. 

You say that:  speaking in tongues, worshipping the same juju on a different day, having saints to pray to, and the different mormon beliefs are wrong.  Yet your 'evidence' is not any more credible than what they present.

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

What is it then?  What is "true Christianity?"

 

 

 

Reading the four Gospels. Accepting Jesus as the image of God. Following him by following his teachings.

[Roz]

 

 

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

What is it then?  What is "true Christianity?"

 

 

 

Reading the four Gospels. Accepting Jesus as the image of God. Following him by following his teachings.

 

 

From IH:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63985-the-story-that-tax-collectors-fear-most/?p=979162

 

He can't prove that the birth of his own savior from his own holy book's gospels is even true. 

 

He can't prove that the Roman census conducted in that time ever required people to go back to the lands of their long dead ancestors and needlessly complicate taxation. 

 

He can't prove an ounce of what his own gospel writer says as "³ With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, ⁴ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

 

Still, he says that is the 'truth.'

[TheRedneckProfessor]

. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

All 41,000 different interpretations of the truth will set you free, or is it just the truth as you see it?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

 

Well, it looks like Ironhorse is an even-handed refusnik.

 

When politely asked to honor his promises and answer ALL the questions put to him - Ironhorse refuses. 

 

When politely asked to accept something indisputably established by science - Ironhorse refuses.

 

When politely asked not to troll this thread by seven77 - Ironhorse refuses.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

 

Well, it looks like Ironhorse is an even-handed refusnik.

 

When politely asked to honor his promises and answer ALL the questions put to him - Ironhorse refuses. 

 

When politely asked to accept something indisputably established by science - Ironhorse refuses.

 

When politely asked not to troll this thread by seven77 - Ironhorse refuses.

 

Maybe it's time to stop politely asking.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

"Which begs the question: What need is there for Yeshua and His death upon the cross? The whole point is that He had to die to pay for our sins. If "living rightly" [according to His teachings, according to the parts of the Torah you like, according to your supposedly godly intentions] is what draws you closer to G-d, then Yeshua is completely unnecessary."

 

Seven77 you said that well. I agree. If living right gets you closer to God, why Jesus?

 

 

Trying to following rules and restrictions and thinking you are getting yourself more holy holy to please God is all crap.

 

That's the stupid idea that Jesus came to say was all wrong. That's why he said  the truth will set you free.

 

And yet you've not provided a single shred of evidence about your very own personal brand of 'true christianity.' 

 

 

 

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

 

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'? 

 

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

 

Well, it looks like Ironhorse is an even-handed refusnik.

 

When politely asked to honor his promises and answer ALL the questions put to him - Ironhorse refuses. 

 

When politely asked to accept something indisputably established by science - Ironhorse refuses.

 

When politely asked not to troll this thread by seven77 - Ironhorse refuses.

 

Maybe it's time to stop politely asking.

 

 

If we do that then he gains the moral high ground.

 

We're the sinful atheists slandering him.  He's the persecuted Christian.

 

Prof, we need to keep on being polite.  

 

Why?

Because by politely asking him to honor his promises and to stop dodging questions, we reveal his true nature to the lurkers.  We show him to be the untrustworthy, faith-blinded denialist that he really is.  For that reason, I'll keep on being polite for as long as it takes.  He's here to stay?  Fine!  I've worked hard to expose the duplicity of Christians like him for months or even years.  I don't care how long he stays, how long he dodges and how much of a refusnik he is.  I'm in this for the long run.

 

How about you?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Good point, BAA.  I probably should have worded my suggestion better, because I didn't mean we should stop being polite.  Rather, I meant perhaps we should just start ignoring him all together.  Even the founding pastor of my old church had better sense than to preach to an empty room; and if the choir stopped saying amen, he knew it was time to stop.

[bornagainathiest]

Good point, BAA.  I probably should have worded my suggestion better, because I didn't mean we should stop being polite.  Rather, I meant perhaps we should just start ignoring him all together.  Even the founding pastor of my old church had better sense than to preach to an empty room; and if the choir stopped saying amen, he knew it was time to stop.

 

Umm... ignoring him lets him off the hook.

 

He made a promise and for the sake of the truth and the lurkers he should be held to that promise... for as long as it takes to get him to honor it.

 

If he never honors it, then we have to keep asking him... forever.

.

.

.

.

Just like the Patriotic Guard, we hold the line against people of bad faith and bad conscience.

We defend the weak and the vulnerable and we defend the truth... for as long as it takes.

.

.

.

Are you in this for as long as it takes?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Good point, BAA.  I probably should have worded my suggestion better, because I didn't mean we should stop being polite.  Rather, I meant perhaps we should just start ignoring him all together.  Even the founding pastor of my old church had better sense than to preach to an empty room; and if the choir stopped saying amen, he knew it was time to stop.

 

Umm... ignoring him lets him off the hook.

 

He made a promise and for the sake of the truth and the lurkers he should be held to that promise... for as long as it takes to get him to honor it.

 

If he never honors it, then we have to keep asking him... forever.

.

.

.

.

Just like the Patriotic Guard, we hold the line against people of bad faith and bad conscience.

We defend the weak and the vulnerable and we defend the truth... for as long as it takes.

.

.

.

Are you in this for as long as it takes?

 

You win, as usual.  And, yes, you know I'm in it to win it.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Good point, BAA.  I probably should have worded my suggestion better, because I didn't mean we should stop being polite.  Rather, I meant perhaps we should just start ignoring him all together.  Even the founding pastor of my old church had better sense than to preach to an empty room; and if the choir stopped saying amen, he knew it was time to stop.

 

Umm... ignoring him lets him off the hook.

 

He made a promise and for the sake of the truth and the lurkers he should be held to that promise... for as long as it takes to get him to honor it.

 

If he never honors it, then we have to keep asking him... forever.

.

.

.

.

Just like the Patriotic Guard, we hold the line against people of bad faith and bad conscience.

We defend the weak and the vulnerable and we defend the truth... for as long as it takes.

.

.

.

Are you in this for as long as it takes?

 

You win, as usual.  And, yes, you know I'm in it to win it.

 

 

[sdelsolray]

I have posted what I believe is evidence. 

…

Yes, you have posted what you "believe" is evidence.  Let's inventory this "evidence":

 

1)  Biblical quotes and references;

 

2)  Numerous logical fallacies, including your favorite, the mere assertion;

 

3)  References to certain websites which contain (guess what) more Biblical quotes and references, more numerous logical fallacies and their favorite, more mere assertions; and

 

4)  Your beliefs and protestations of religious faith.

 

 

…

Where do I say I have my own brand of 'true christianity'?

…

 

Many of your posts drip with the implication that your view on Christianity is correct and others' views on Christianity are incorrect.

 

…

True Christianity is not a brand.

 

 

What is True Christianity, then?