Does Fundamentalism Make Sense To Fundamentalists?

[directionless]

Hopefully this is an easy question for somebody to answer. Ex-fundamentalists often mention that everything fit together so nicely after buying-into the basic assumptions of fundamentalism. I assume that means a fundamentalist could read the Bible and feel that all those different authors were talking about the same God with the same grand purpose culminating in Christianity.

 

Just curious if fundamentalism really makes sense to fundamentalists in that way. In liberal Christianity the key is to not look too critically or take anything too literally - just cherry pick some inspirational items here and there. I don't understand how fundamentalism can transform the craziness into something neat and tidy.

[UnFundEd]

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

[directionless]

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

I suppose one of the core assumptions of fundamentalism is Biblical literal inerrancy. Whenever I read the Bible, it was obvious that the religion was evolving and I could never reconcile that fact with divine inspiration. Supposedly the OT religion foreshadowed the NT religion, but I never could see how that worked.

 

The TV pastors seem to know so much about their Bibles and apparently have a theology where it all works.

[UnFundEd]

 

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

I suppose one of the core assumptions of fundamentalism is Biblical literal inerrancy. Whenever I read the Bible, it was obvious that the religion was evolving and I could never reconcile that fact with divine inspiration. Supposedly the OT religion foreshadowed the NT religion, but I never could see how that worked.The TV pastors seem to know so much about their Bibles and apparently have a theology where it all works.

Yes, literal inerrancy is a huge component of this. There is a basic misunderstanding about the bible. Fundamentalists imagine that is it a set of historical documents, and that ancient writers were writing to the standards of modern journalism. Neither is true - the original authors were not attempting to write accurate histories, and they were ignorant of modern journalistic standards (and would not have cared for them had they known of them.) By reading these standards of accuracy backward into the document, a completely hopeless situation evolves. Fables become carved-in-granite truths. It's a mess.

[VacuumFlux]

Sure, it's easy to feel safe and secure when you think you have all the answers, or that at least someone smarter than you has all the answers and that life is nice and neat.

 

It's also kinda like a sci-fi or fantasy. With good enough world building, you enjoy the overall arch of the story and the way the world plays into it, and ignore the things that don't fit. Really crazy fans may even make up elaborate stories as to how it all fits together in that alternate reality, but most people just tune out those details because they want to feel like the story is consistent.

 

With fundamentalism, you're also told that it all makes sense, and any continutity errors are your failure to understand. God is never obligated to explain himself to mere mortals. Some even make it a point of pride to "trust in god" despite their doubts. The Bible is never wrong, it's always your fault for not getting it.

[mymistake]

I was able to justify it in my mind.  However I relied on certain cheats and hacks.  If something didn't add up I would assume that the Bible was too wise for me to understand.  I would blame the misunderstanding on my own frail mind.

[directionless]

O.k., it sounds like fundamentalism only pretends to have a "grand unified bible theory". They cherry pick just like I have always done, but they don't admit it.

 

I have always been confused when Christians claimed that the Bible was a consistent story of God's plan leading up to Jesus and blah blah blah. Apparently N.T. Wright has some books that are supposed to show how it all follows God's master plan. I always figured I was just too dumb to get it.

[Guest ninurta]

Hopefully this is an easy question for somebody to answer. Ex-fundamentalists often mention that everything fit together so nicely after buying-into the basic assumptions of fundamentalism. I assume that means a fundamentalist could read the Bible and feel that all those different authors were talking about the same God with the same grand purpose culminating in Christianity.

 

Just curious if fundamentalism really makes sense to fundamentalists in that way. In liberal Christianity the key is to not look too critically or take anything too literally - just cherry pick some inspirational items here and there. I don't understand how fundamentalism can transform the craziness into something neat and tidy.

A quote from me from my fundie days, I distinctly remember saying, "Why are so many christians afraid of science? Don't they realize that someday it will pan out, and confirm what God already has said? It has to!"

 

So yes, it actually does make sense. Then again, the last time I believed, I was really young and naive.

[Geezer]

I was a fundy for about 40 years and served at the highest levels of leadership. Based on my experience this is my perspective. No, fundamentalism did not, and does not, make sense and that is precisely the point. It isn't suppose to make sense, it isn't suppose to be scientifically possible, because God's ways are not man's ways. God acts outside the laws of science and physics to confound and confuse those who believe themselves, from a human perspective, to be wise and educated.

 

Faith is defined as belief without evidence. If a person requires evidence, logic, and scientific facts that is proof that they don't have faith. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. That kind of thinking requires a lot of indoctrination and programming to sell, but once a person accepts it they are no longer able to think rationally or logically.

 

All religions require a lot of brainwashing to survive. Knowledge and the ability to think critically is their greatest threat and they are very much aware of that.

[directionless]

I was a fundy for about 40 years and served at the highest levels of leadership. Based on my experience this is my perspective. No, fundamentalism did not, and does not, make since and that is precisely the point. It isn't suppose to make since, it isn't suppose to be scientifically possible, because God's ways are not man's ways. God acts outside the laws of science and physics to confound and confuse those who believe themselves, from a human perspective, to be wise and educated.

 

Faith is defined as belief without evidence. If a person requires evidence, logic, and scientific facts that is proof that they don't have faith. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. That kind of thinking requires a lot of indoctrination and programming to sell, but once a person accepts it they are no longer able to think rationally or logically.

 

All religions require a lot of brainwashing to survive. Knowledge and the ability to think critically is their greatest threat and they are very much aware of that.

Setting aside science and the creation story, how about the religious practices described? Did you ever see a consistent plan in the evolving religious beliefs and practices? Like supposedly the Torah foreshadows the Christian beliefs? I am familiar with the flood foreshadowing baptism and the passover lamb foreshadowing crucifixion, but there is so much other stuff in the Torah that seems to have no relevance to Christianity. Someone on a Christian forum suggested that I read a book by N.T. Wright that would put it all together. I never read that book, but I've always been curious if there really is a way to make it all fit.

[mymistake]

 

I was a fundy for about 40 years and served at the highest levels of leadership. Based on my experience this is my perspective. No, fundamentalism did not, and does not, make since and that is precisely the point. It isn't suppose to make since, it isn't suppose to be scientifically possible, because God's ways are not man's ways. God acts outside the laws of science and physics to confound and confuse those who believe themselves, from a human perspective, to be wise and educated.

 

Faith is defined as belief without evidence. If a person requires evidence, logic, and scientific facts that is proof that they don't have faith. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. That kind of thinking requires a lot of indoctrination and programming to sell, but once a person accepts it they are no longer able to think rationally or logically.

 

All religions require a lot of brainwashing to survive. Knowledge and the ability to think critically is their greatest threat and they are very much aware of that.

Setting aside science and the creation story, how about the religious practices described? Did you ever see a consistent plan in the evolving religious beliefs and practices? Like supposedly the Torah foreshadows the Christian beliefs? I am familiar with the flood foreshadowing baptism and the passover lamb foreshadowing crucifixion, but there is so much other stuff in the Torah that seems to have no relevance to Christianity. Someone on a Christian forum suggested that I read a book by N.T. Wright that would put it all together. I never read that book, but I've always been curious if there really is a way to make it all fit.

 

 

 

Oh yeah God gave humans God's law to teach us because we were so suborn.  Then God took away God's laws because it was impossible to keep them all.  Makes perfect sense.

 

God wanted people in the Old Testament killing animals as a sacrifice so that when Jesus came and died they would know they don't have to sacrifice anymore.  Try not to think about it too much.

 

And God called for genocide of so many tribes and cities because those people were going to be the ancestors of even worse terrorists than what we have today.  It was a temporal abortion which it allowed as long as God orders it because as God's creation God has the right to smite us or order that we be smited.  Just imagine how evil your decedents have to be to have God order your death.  Sure God could have done the killing himself but God likes to involve His children in his plans.  Anyway about those terrorist decedents, it must be that they would have been way worse that the terrorists we have today because obviously the terrorist we have today are here so God allowed their ancestors to live and have families.  Only God could know where that cut off point is when you are so evil that your whole family must be eliminated along with your horses, donkeys, oxen, cattle, goats, sheep, cats and dogs.  Obviously Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler were not bad enough because God allowed them to be born but they must have been close to the line.  God just has so much more wisdom than us mere mortals.  God is so good.  I'm so glad God chose for me to be born in the time of the New Testament.

[Geezer]

 

I was a fundy for about 40 years and served at the highest levels of leadership. Based on my experience this is my perspective. No, fundamentalism did not, and does not, make since and that is precisely the point. It isn't suppose to make since, it isn't suppose to be scientifically possible, because God's ways are not man's ways. God acts outside the laws of science and physics to confound and confuse those who believe themselves, from a human perspective, to be wise and educated.

 

Faith is defined as belief without evidence. If a person requires evidence, logic, and scientific facts that is proof that they don't have faith. And lack of faith is a sin unto death. That kind of thinking requires a lot of indoctrination and programming to sell, but once a person accepts it they are no longer able to think rationally or logically.

 

All religions require a lot of brainwashing to survive. Knowledge and the ability to think critically is their greatest threat and they are very much aware of that.

Setting aside science and the creation story, how about the religious practices described? Did you ever see a consistent plan in the evolving religious beliefs and practices? Like supposedly the Torah foreshadows the Christian beliefs? I am familiar with the flood foreshadowing baptism and the passover lamb foreshadowing crucifixion, but there is so much other stuff in the Torah that seems to have no relevance to Christianity. Someone on a Christian forum suggested that I read a book by N.T. Wright that would put it all together. I never read that book, but I've always been curious if there really is a way to make it all fit.

 

 

 

You will not find consistency anywhere in any traditional form of Christianity. It is an endless mishmash of contradictions and discrepancies. Every verse that promises salvation by faith through grace is contradicted by other verses that clearly indicate salvation is by works.

And then there is the problem that “salvation” is based on the Garden of Eden story, which scholars know with a high degree of certainty was written during the Babylonian captivity by at least five identifiable authors. And then there is also the problem that the Garden of Eden story appears to be a midrash rewrite taken from Ezekiel 28: 13-19.

If you study religious history long enough it will likely become apparent the bible is mythology repackaged and advertised as theology.

I’ve read NT Wright. He’s an apologist and I would be wary of any apologists. They all have an agenda. If you are seeking truth and tangible evidence then I suggest you read real religious historians such as Bart Ehrman, Elaine Pagels, and Robert M Price among others. Once you begin reading them you will become aware of other equally competent religious historical scholars.

[directionless]

Thanks, everybody, I can see that none of that makes sense to fundamentalists either. It sounds similar to other types of Christianity except that people profess a belief that everything in the Bible makes perfect sense.

 

I was just curious, because some of those teachers on the Christian channel seem to have studied these issues in depth without losing confidence in Biblical inerrancy. It is interesting how religion can make intelligent people blind to the obvious.

[Geezer]

I assume it is relatively easy to retain confidence in the Bible's sacred status if your paycheck depends on it.  

[midniterider]

Hopefully this is an easy question for somebody to answer. Ex-fundamentalists often mention that everything fit together so nicely after buying-into the basic assumptions of fundamentalism. I assume that means a fundamentalist could read the Bible and feel that all those different authors were talking about the same God with the same grand purpose culminating in Christianity.

 

Just curious if fundamentalism really makes sense to fundamentalists in that way. In liberal Christianity the key is to not look too critically or take anything too literally - just cherry pick some inspirational items here and there. I don't understand how fundamentalism can transform the craziness into something neat and tidy.

 

I was a Pentecostal and would read the bible for 20 minutes tops every few weeks. :-) Most of what I read was really boring though I never got into much of it. Most of my indoctrination involved listening to someone else's interpretation of scripture and me nodding, "oh ok." Most of my Christian experience/programming involved the singing, worship, prayer, the movement of the 'holy spirit' , the social encounter, but not much bible at all.

 

I don't recall thinking if it fit together well or not.  My Christianity was agreeing with other church members as to the meaning of the scripture and agreeing to the church culture. If I had expressed my own personal interpretation of scripture and stood by it I'm sure I would have been ostracized by the group and the weekly 'bible study' with another couple would have dissolved.

[midniterider]

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

 

Makes me wonder why they didnt just call it several hundred thousand years in that case. :-) Did the Earth revolve around the sun a lot slower back then?

[midniterider]

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

 

Wouldnt it be fun to ask Christians to volunteer for a polygraph test? Question them to see if they really believe it or are just defending the bible.

[mymistake]

Thanks, everybody, I can see that none of that makes sense to fundamentalists either. It sounds similar to other types of Christianity except that people profess a belief that everything in the Bible makes perfect sense.

 

I was just curious, because some of those teachers on the Christian channel seem to have studied these issues in depth without losing confidence in Biblical inerrancy. It is interesting how religion can make intelligent people blind to the obvious.

 

 

Being fundamentalist took great quantities of denial.  I really did believe it all made sense.  But I had also built up all sorts of rationalizations and shaky explanations that I did not examine too closely.  And when I couldn't make sense of it I would fall back on my faith.

[directionless]

I was a Pentecostal and would read the bible for 20 minutes tops every few weeks. :-) Most of what I read was really boring though I never got into much of it. Most of my indoctrination involved listening to someone else's interpretation of scripture and me nodding, "oh ok." Most of my Christian experience/programming involved the singing, worship, prayer, the movement of the 'holy spirit' , the social encounter, but not much bible at all.

 

I don't recall thinking if it fit together well or not.  My Christianity was agreeing with other church members as to the meaning of the scripture and agreeing to the church culture. If I had expressed my own personal interpretation of scripture and stood by it I'm sure I would have been ostracized by the group and the weekly 'bible study' with another couple would have dissolved.

I was somewhere in between a fundamentalist and a liberal. I have always liked archaeology and history, so the OT historical books like Judges and Kings were my favorites. I also liked the parables in Matthew and some of the shorter Psalms. Basically I ignored everything else in the Bible - especially the NT. But I believed in God even though the OT books I enjoyed were the books that most people find objectionable. I never stopped to think about it I guess.

[directionless]

 

Thanks, everybody, I can see that none of that makes sense to fundamentalists either. It sounds similar to other types of Christianity except that people profess a belief that everything in the Bible makes perfect sense.

 

I was just curious, because some of those teachers on the Christian channel seem to have studied these issues in depth without losing confidence in Biblical inerrancy. It is interesting how religion can make intelligent people blind to the obvious.

 

 

Being fundamentalist took great quantities of denial.  I really did believe it all made sense.  But I had also built up all sorts of rationalizations and shaky explanations that I did not examine too closely.  And when I couldn't make sense of it I would fall back on my faith.

 

That is interesting. I remember a couple of friends in college were Christians and I attended a Four Square mega church with them in L.A. (Jack Hayford was the pastor.) I suppose that is fundamentalist or at least evangelical. In that culture people are much more serious about studying their Bibles and a Christian lifestyle. In Episcopal churches it is more about communion and singing hymns.

 

My Christian college friends seemed to think the Bible made sense and they were intelligent and serious Christians. Very strange how people can make themselves believe.

[UnFundEd]

 

It does make sense to them to some extent. It all depends on whether they can take the explanations and "believe" them with a straight face or not. I was having a discussion with a fundy gal the other day, and we were comparing the belief in the Genesis record with the evolutionary record. I pointed out that things had to take way longer than 6000 years. She admitted they did, but then rationalized that the 6000 year history from Adam to our time may have really taken several hundred thousand years because "God made the "years" last longer so it could all work out". She really believes that there is a magic God answer to cover every inconsistency. Now, whether she actually believes that explanation when the lights go out at night, and is just saying it to save face with me, I have no way of knowing.

 

 

Wouldnt it be fun to ask Christians to volunteer for a polygraph test? Question them to see if they really believe it or are just defending the bible.

That is an awesome idea. Many of them would probably pass, but I'll bet there would be quite a few who didn't.

[RipVanWinkle]

My brother is a fundamentalists. I know he believes the bible is totally consistent. I remember asking him one time about a scripture that said that no murderer can go to heaven. I asked him the obvious question. How can that be consistent with multiple scriptures, including John 3:16? He said, since the whole bible indicates to the contrary, the scripture I referred to must mean something else. How stupid of me not to see that.  bill

[directionless]

My brother is a fundamentalists. I know he believes the bible is totally consistent. I remember asking him one time about a scripture that said that no murderer can go to heaven. I asked him the obvious question. How can that be consistent with multiple scriptures, including John 3:16? He said, since the whole bible indicates to the contrary, the scripture I referred to must mean something else. How stupid of me not to see that.  bill

That's similar to how I handled problem in the Bible except that I would assume parts of the Bible were mistakes, exaggerations, or propaganda. I guess a fundamentalist can't go that far but can accomplish the same thing by claiming we don't understand how it actually makes perfect sense.

[Orbit]

The only reason the Bible "makes sense" to fundamentalists is that they explain anything that doesn't make sense as a "context" problem, or  because of "God's mysterious ways".

[directionless]

The only reason the Bible "makes sense" to fundamentalists is that they explain anything that doesn't make sense as a "context" problem, or  because of "God's mysterious ways".

That is what I suspected, but sometimes I thought that I had overlooked something and wasn't giving the Bible a fair chance.