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Goodbye Jesus

My Wife And The Doctrine Of Hell


Storm

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So, a couple of nights ago, my wife and I ended up having a long discussion in regards to my "crisis of faith". I have not told her I no longer believe, just that I am going through a dark period of not really being sure of what I believe (which is a partial truth). I am not quite ready to let her know about where I am really at. Part of this reason is because she is so innately afraid that I will be going to hell. And on top of that, she is very afraid that my questioning all this stuff will lead to our kids going to hell as well. She is so very serious about this and it really bothers me.

 

This is probably the most horrible doctrine in all of christianity and it is a big reason why I cannot come out to my wife and family regarding my deconversion.

 

So I have been searching for good resources to show my wife that the doctrine of hell is not what she thinks it is. I found this on a Christian site and I think it does a good job of explaining hell and why its not what Christians say it is.

 

Can some of you who are in the know regarding the doctrine of hell verify that this is a good explanation or can you give me some good places to get more accurate info regarding hell? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

I think my wife would be open to studying it if I gave her something to read that made sense and explained things in a way that she could understand. One thing I like about the link I posted is that it comes from a Christian organization, so it isn't from a dirty no good atheist site.

 

Thanks for your help.

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So it turns out that the article I referenced is a page out of the entire site that is dedicated to dispelling the myth of hell and eternal punishment. Some interesting stuff there. Here is the main page link if you are interested.

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Hai Storm :)

 

I feel for you. One of the problems of Christianity is that it's not good enough for believers to just...believe. They find the need to recruit others to their way of thinking. That is something Jesus instructed..."go and make disciples of all nations."

 

So, it's hard to combat that without the person letting go of the whole religion.

 

I would share my views and then leave it there. At some point, she needs to respect your right to choose what you believe.

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Of course I don't know the details of your situation. I assume you are focusing on hell because that doctrine would make your wife most afraid for your fate. I was wondering if trying to convince her that hell is a myth might open a can of worms where she becomes more aware of your distance from orthodox Christianity? Many Christians seem to feel that the crucifixion and Christianity only have purpose if Jesus is saving Christians from hell. (For example the CARM forum only banned two topics - satanism and universalism.)

 

What denomination is your family?

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Hai Storm smile.png

 

I feel for you. One of the problems of Christianity is that it's not good enough for believers to just...believe. They find the need to recruit others to their way of thinking. That is something Jesus instructed..."go and make disciples of all nations."

 

So, it's hard to combat that without the person letting go of the whole religion.

 

I would share my views and then leave it there. At some point, she needs to respect your right to choose what you believe.

I agree with you, D, but I have to remember its not just about me. I want very much to just tell her everything, but that would be too much for her, and truthfully, probably for me. I like my life right now, and to throw this big bomb into it is not something I am ready or willing to do just yet. I can play the game and pretend. I don't mind most of the time. With my "crisis of faith" I get some leeway in throwing things out there without too many ramifications. I can push some, but not go into the shoving, if you understand what I mean.

 

 

Of course I don't know the details of your situation. I assume you are focusing on hell because that doctrine would make your wife most afraid for your fate. I was wondering if trying to convince her that hell is a myth might open a can of worms where she becomes more aware of your distance from orthodox Christianity? Many Christians seem to feel that the crucifixion and Christianity only have purpose if Jesus is saving Christians from hell. (For example the CARM forum only banned two topics - satanism and universalism.)

 

What denomination is your family?

We are attending an Assemblies of God church. My wife grew up in a Church of Christ. Her grandfather is a minister in the Church of Christ denomination. The sad thing about all of this is she admits to willful ignorance. She says she doesn't care whether or not I understand it a certain way, she just believes because that's what she believes. Whether it makes sense or not. I think she isn't ready to give anything up at the moment. That makes it tough to talk with her about it. She admits she wont do any studying on her own, but if I present something, she may be open to at least reading it. That's why I am wanting to verify that the site I mentioned is mostly accurate and correct. It appears to be so to me, but I admit I am still a noob when it comes to the hell beliefs and philosophy in the new testament realm. I am not focusing on hell for any other reason than the fact that she keeps bringing it up. She is truly scared for me and my kids.

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So, a couple of nights ago, my wife and I ended up having a long discussion in regards to my "crisis of faith". I have not told her I no longer believe, just that I am going through a dark period of not really being sure of what I believe (which is a partial truth). I am not quite ready to let her know about where I am really at. Part of this reason is because she is so innately afraid that I will be going to hell. And on top of that, she is very afraid that my questioning all this stuff will lead to our kids going to hell as well. She is so very serious about this and it really bothers me.

 

This is probably the most horrible doctrine in all of christianity and it is a big reason why I cannot come out to my wife and family regarding my deconversion.

 

So I have been searching for good resources to show my wife that the doctrine of hell is not what she thinks it is. I found this on a Christian site and I think it does a good job of explaining hell and why its not what Christians say it is.

 

Can some of you who are in the know regarding the doctrine of hell verify that this is a good explanation or can you give me some good places to get more accurate info regarding hell? I would greatly appreciate it.

 

I think my wife would be open to studying it if I gave her something to read that made sense and explained things in a way that she could understand. One thing I like about the link I posted is that it comes from a Christian organization, so it isn't from a dirty no good atheist site.

 

Thanks for your help.

The account of theology looks reasonable, but there are also some other things you could point out. What gets translated as "hell" in the gospels is the Hebrew word "gehenna" which was the name of a dirt field outside Jerusalem where bodies were cremated. There were always fires burning there. Jesus never made reference to a place of eternal torment called hell. Now your wife will probably say "what about Paul" and that is another can of worms. We know that some of Paul's letters were not written by Paul, and that his theology is invented by himself, and it not based on Jesus' actual teachings, but on Paul's interpretation of them. Entire books have been written on this. The most accessible author is Bart Ehrman.

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Sadly, many religious people believe what they believe not because they have rationally thought about it and explored the history of the word, but because they take it on authority and have an emotional investment in it. The doctrine of hell raises the stakes so that the fear of eternal damnation takes over and they stop thinking clearly. Before you start giving her facts and alternative arguments, you might want to tackle the issue of how she knows which [Christian] beliefs to believe in, given that there are so many different flavors out there. Does she take it on authority from her local pastor? Does she interpret scripture as best as she can without letting others' views influence her? Does she study the history of the doctrine and judge whether or not it is truly scriptural? Does she let her emotions guide her or "the spirit?" Keep asking her more questions along those lines (the Socratic method) that will hopefully bring her to a place where she begins to legitimately question how she knows what she professes to know. 

 

If you're really lucky, maybe she will apply these questions to her faith as a whole instead of just specific beliefs within her faith. Maybe she will start to wonder whether taking something on faith is really the best way to live.

 

Good luck!

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I'm wondering if your wife might think "hmmm, why is he trying to convince me that hell doesn't exist? Uh oh, he's no longer a Christian."

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I hear you, Storm. But unfortunately, you're trying to get through logically and faith isn't about logic. (as we know)

Let her come to you if/when she is ready, if she has questions. Hell doesn't exist. It is an idea based on faith. As long as she has faith, you will go round and round over it.

 

I hope things work out.

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I am completely out to my christian wife and the one thing that really bothers her is that she believes I am going to hell when I die.  She has asked me to promise that if I realize my death is imminent that I will immediately pray for forgiveness and confess my belief in god/jesus.  That is something I won't do.

 

I don't think there is any website, christian or not, or other source of information that would change my wife's belief in hell.  Your situation may be different, but other than explaining my lack of fear of what comes after death, hell is not something I try to argue with my wife about because I don't see it going anywhere.

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I am completely out to my christian wife and the one thing that really bothers her is that she believes I am going to hell when I die.  She has asked me to promise that if I realize my death is imminent that I will immediately pray for forgiveness and confess my belief in god/jesus.  That is something I won't do.

 

I don't think there is any website, christian or not, or other source of information that would change my wife's belief in hell.  Your situation may be different, but other than explaining my lack of fear of what comes after death, hell is not something I try to argue with my wife about because I don't see it going anywhere.

I'm happy for you! :)

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Shedding oneself of the fear of hell is sometimes a complicated matter, depending on the beliefs about it that were indoctrinated into the individual. From what I have seen from my years on ExC, the most effective way to convince someone that hell is not real is for them to come to understand that the Christian religion is not true. For many people who finally come to this realization, the doctrine of hell evaporates, though that is not universally true.

 

I hate to say it but if your wife comes to think you are destined for hell for your lack of belief, short of explaining to her that the Christian religion is false and her accepting that, she will probably keep that belief. The doctrine of hell is mainstream Christianity and the doctrine of universalism is not.

 

You know your wife and, if course, your best course of action is dictated by her personality and her core Christian beliefs.

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Thank you all for your responses. There is much truth to what you guys are saying in regards to her believing no matter what I do. I guess that in the back of my mind that I hope that I could get her to listen to reason. Its probably too much to ask. I guess maybe I hope that she sees that I didnt take my decisions lightly and that for me to have made such a change that maybe there really is something wrong with Christianity. But, I suspect that her friends are telling her that I am being blinded by satan and he is keeping me from god. Where does it ever end? 

 

I am still interested in the link I posted as to whether it is a good one to use for reference sake. 

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Storm, this link may be interesting for you and it has a Universalist theme.

 

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishment-IsitReallyofGod.html

 

Sadly, Christianity can't agree on even basic issues, which only serves to make people even more fearful.

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Shedding oneself of the fear of hell is sometimes a complicated matter, depending on the beliefs about it that were indoctrinated into the individual. From what I have seen from my years on ExC, the most effective way to convince someone that hell is not real is for them to come to understand that the Christian religion is not true. For many people who finally come to this realization, the doctrine of hell evaporates, though that is not universally true.

 

I hate to say it but if your wife comes to think you are destined for hell for your lack of belief, short of explaining to her that the Christian religion is false and her accepting that, she will probably keep that belief. The doctrine of hell is mainstream Christianity and the doctrine of universalism is not.

 

You know your wife and, if course, your best course of action is dictated by her personality and her core Christian beliefs.

Storm,

 

I want to echo this emphasis. I stopped believing in Hell because (as a natural consequence) of my no longer believing in Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian god, and the religion. I began my conscious doubting and my intentional questioning over the issue of Yahweh's moral character.

 

Most Christians impose upon themselves a sort of crimestop mode of thinking (as George Orwell describes in Nineteen Eighty-Four), which prevents them from truly objectively questioning Yahweh. They believe the doctrines because Yahweh requires them to believe. And they believe in Yahweh because they are afraid to disbelieve. Some people risk the fear and they question Yahweh, but then during the unbelieving process they begin to fear that there is nothing other than Yahweh.

 

Your wife might have to face both these fears: first the fear of questioning Yahweh to his face (so to speak), and then the fear of wondering what there is beyond Yahweh, or after Yahweh. These are self-preservation mechanisms built into the God virus, or God delusion. The Human mind is complex and resilient, but also sensitive and seemingly fragile in some ways. The process of unbelieving and deconverting is not linear nor simple.

 

As you know, the AOG is quite fundamentalist. I spent some time in that denomination. It's Pentecostal, so emotional manipulation is a typical method of keeping people "faithful."

 

I have a .pdf copy of a treatise a guy wrote that demonstrates there is no hell. He uses Hebrew and Greek concepts from the scriptures to illustrate his POV. However, I don't have a web site address for it.

 

I wish you the best in this difficult and frustrating endeavor.

 

Human

 

Thanks Human. I appreciate your candor. I guess I am a victim of my own wishful thinking. I know you are right, as well as the others that said essentially the same things. Its very frustrating. I know there is a low probability that she would ever change her mind about it. It just frustrates me. A lot. She is a smart woman. She can see the truth if she looks for it. But she doesn't look for it. She doesn't want to look for it. She is happy in her little bubble and she lets it guide her life. I hate what christianity does to people. I see it more and more every day. Calling it a virus is a very accurate and descriptive term that explains what christianity is.

 

RogueScholar, Thanks for the video. It was very good. I may be able to use it sometime.

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Assembly of God is the modern version of the Hail, Fire, and Brimstone turn or burn type of Christianity. The fear of hell is deeply ingrained in their belief. To them, everything "worldly" is either from the pits of hell or is in the process of going there. Theirs is a strange world where they are in a constant state of spiritual warfare where they are the prayer warriors defending the world from all of hell's evils. I spent the better part of my youth in AOG churches and I'm very familiar with their delusions of spiritual grandeur. They KNOW when satan is attacking because the holy ghost tells them so. How can you argue with that? I suspect your wife will only see your "crisis of faith" as something to claim victory over in jesus name or some such nonsense. Your crisis would only be perceived as a battle to be won over satan and his demons.

 

I don't recall many of what one would call lukewarm christians in the AOG churches. Their beliefs are so extreme one must be very devout in those beliefs to regularly attend an AOG church...otherwise it's just too much even for the rank and file irrational believer. I don't believe a rational discourse on the existence of hell will go very far here. You will have to begin slowing subverting her faith by planting the tiniest seeds of doubt. Only you can know what acts of sedition might undermine her belief.

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Regarding the Tentmaker article:
 

Statisticians tell us that over the past 6,000 years approximately 160 billion people have lived on the earth.

 
I hope Mrs. Storm isn’t good at math. The 160 billion figure is perfectly plausible if H. sapiens has been around for 200,000 years, but the math doesn’t work out for the Biblically correct 6,000 years.
 

The doctrine of "eternal punishment" aligns Christianity with the pagan religions of the world. Pagan religion recruits and rules its members by fear. The common theme of pagan religion is that non-members displease an angry god and will therefore spend eternity being tortured and tormented in the flames of hell. The pagan god rules by threat and intimidation.

 

First of all, not only is paganism not monolithic, it is paraphyletic, defined by what it is not. Paganism is the collection of religions that are left when you exclude the Abrahamic religions. Such an eclectic mix cannot be generalized.
 
Then, has Mr. Salisbury taken a look in the mirror? The Christian idea of posthumous punishment probably entered Jewish thought via Persian religion, and was certainly influenced by Greek religion, but the doctrine of hell in its ultimate form is purely a product of orthodox Christianity itself. As for the idea of a vengeful god ruling by threats and intimidation, no god does it more than the tribal god of the Hebrews. And punishment for merely not belonging to the club? As far as I am aware, that idea originated with Judaism.
 

Is it any wonder that Christianity, whose gospel is the "power of God unto salvation" (Rom.1:16), has made so little impact upon the world's population?

 

Which world is Mr. Salisbury talking about? The one I live in is 1/3 Christians, who dominate the rest of the world economically and militarily. Or is he referring to the way Christians have utterly failed to live the message of peace?
 

The Conscience Says "No"

The Holy Spirit-illumined conscience is the truest witness of the Holy Spirit. Any doctrine born of God will commend itself to the Christian's conscience. Though many say they believe this doctrine to be true, they very seldom, if ever, preach it, and if they do they will say, "I wish it were not really true or "If I could change it, I would." These or similar statements only reveal the voice of their consciences, which do not find an Amen! To the doctrine of "eternal punishment." you, the reader, test this statement: Say out loud: "Every person who has not believed on Jesus Christ while living in this mortal body on this earth deserves to be eternally punished." What is the witness of your conscience?

 

This was true for me. The dogma of everlasting hell was the first Christian doctrine to cause me cognitive dissonance, although the belief lingered until I finally let go of the god hypothesis completely. Might getting your wife to think about the morality of eternal torture open up a crack?

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Might getting your wife to think about the morality of eternal torture open up a crack?

I certainly hope so. She is smart enough that if she decided to take a good long look at it she could be persuaded differently than she believes, but the biggest problem is getting her to care enough to even think about looking at it differently. She has made it pretty clear that she doesn't care what articles and other "experts say", she believes what she believes and that's good enough for her. Ironically, she is good at being critical of things that don't make sense to her at church, but she will not stray from the basic foundations of Jesus and his death paying for our sins and getting into heaven if you trust in him and going to hell if you don't. Everything else is just stuff that doesn't matter. That's basically what I've gotten from her the past couple months.

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The difference between an intelligent, skeptical Christian and an ex-Christian is that the latter has no sacred cows.

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The difference between an intelligent, skeptical Christian and an ex-Christian is that the latter has no sacred cows.

Truth.

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This is a real monster we're dealing with.

I see you catering to their fears of hell because you want to avoid the consequences, a necessary precaution.

 

As Fernweh so eloquently described, they have you in a box.

You need to ask your wife how she feels about being with a devil-serving, hell-bound partner.  Have you asked yourself if you want to be with someone who condemns you to hell?

Forgive my anti-marriage position.  I've never married for many reasons, this being one of them.  I was engaged once to someone who condemned me to hell.  It was a last straw during my de-conversion.

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Regardless of the manipulative nature of the belief system and the inequity of being in a position where one has to tread carefully that Voice points out, the reality is that, if Storm wishes to keep his family relationship whole and  healthy, he needs to deal with this with a degree of wisdom.

 

There is a time and place for confrontation.  There is also a time and place for advancing slowly and watching for one's chances.  Only Storm can judge the right approach for his family circumstance.

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When I was teetering on the edge of losing my christianity, I started studying whether I was wrong about hell. I had so many questions, I was willing to be skeptical about any of the doctrines I had previously believed so strongly.  The thing is, the apologetics for "no hell" contained so many mental gymnastics and re-interpretation of plain-reading verses, that I found it went way beyond plausibility. There were great arguments about how eternal hell is not in the Old Testament, and I realized that was correct. But it's a heck of a task trying to erase hell from the NT. Even as an atheist now with no conflict of interest, I still don't find the "no hell in NT" arguments plausible.

 

Someone mentioned Bart Ehrman. I would be interested in his thoughts on the subject.

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