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Abortion


Castiel233

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Given that nature aborts babies

 

Given that God kills babies in The Bible

 

Given that giving birth to a baby means to inflict eternal fire on it after death (according to the Good News in the Good Book)

 

Why do believers oppose abortion, is it because (in their theology) in deprives God of extra victims

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They didnt oppose abortion until the late 1970s, when Carter proposed the equal rights amendment (women's rights) and wealthy GOP backers started a propaganda campaign in the evangelical churches.  Anti-abortion politics is all about controlling women.

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I didn't know about the Carter amendment (thanks for the info).

 

 

The Bible is pro death (yet some believers are anti-abortion)

 

The Bible is anti prayer in public (yet some believers agitate for public prayer in public schools)

 

*facepalm*

 

So I think you are onto something, its about power on Earth rather than promoting real Biblical teachings

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If you're interested in the history of the rise of the religious right, which is the source of anti-abortionism, this thread has some useful info: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62943-the-real-origins-of-the-religious-right/#.VClDn2eSxUk

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I have long suspected that the religious fundies who decry abortion are just selfish cowards. Every time I read or listen to someone talk about the evils of "murdering unborn babies", I want to call them on their BS. If I listen to them carefully, and give them enough rope ot hang themselves with, it seems that they are really only thinking of themselves.

 

Their god is always threatening to smite their land, their freedom, their health, their lives. So I think that the reason they oppose abortion has a whole lot more to do with making sure they hate the things their god told them to hate, and at least make a spectacle about it publically, so their god knows they hate it too, and maybe he'll refrain from enslaving them, or sending calamity on the land, because there are still enough of them hating all the right things that god won't go on a smiting binge.

 

I tend to think this comes from the story in the bible about how god refrained from destroying lands if there was even just "one righteous person to be found". I think they consider themselves saviours in this way. It's also why I think they oppose LGBT rights. It is not preservation of supposed traditional families, but preservation of their "blessings". Just my thoughts on that subject.

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I have long suspected that the religious fundies who decry abortion are just selfish cowards. Every time I read or listen to someone talk about the evils of "murdering unborn babies", I want to call them on their BS. If I listen to them carefully, and give them enough rope ot hang themselves with, it seems that they are really only thinking of themselves.

 

Their god is always threatening to smite their land, their freedom, their health, their lives. So I think that the reason they oppose abortion has a whole lot more to do with making sure they hate the things their god told them to hate, and at least make a spectacle about it publically, so their god knows they hate it too, and maybe he'll refrain from enslaving them, or sending calamity on the land, because there are still enough of them hating all the right things that god won't go on a smiting binge.

 

I tend to think this comes from the story in the bible about how god refrained from destroying lands if there was even just "one righteous person to be found". I think they consider themselves saviours in this way. It's also why I think they oppose LGBT rights. It is not preservation of supposed traditional families, but preservation of their "blessings". Just my thoughts on that subject.

Interesting points. The whole hating those who God hates makes me think of the "fact" that God has enemies according to the Bible.........how can the all-seeing, all knowing, all powerful and all creating deity create things to be His enemies, which He will hate.

Same with Sin. God hates sin, hates it, yet allows it to exists. He hates gay people yet creates a world with gays in it, etc, etc.....  

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The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion - When the Anti-Choice Choose

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

 

The Bible Supports Abortion

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/bible.shtml

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Their god is always threatening to smite their land, their freedom, their health, their lives. So I think that the reason they oppose abortion has a whole lot more to do with making sure they hate the things their god told them to hate, and at least make a spectacle about it publically, so their god knows they hate it too, and maybe he'll refrain from enslaving them, or sending calamity on the land, because there are still enough of them hating all the right things that god won't go on a smiting binge.

 

I tend to think this comes from the story in the bible about how god refrained from destroying lands if there was even just "one righteous person to be found". I think they consider themselves saviours in this way. It's also why I think they oppose LGBT rights. It is not preservation of supposed traditional families, but preservation of their "blessings". Just my thoughts on that subject.

 

Yes! Thank you for articulating this. Of course it's all total irony and circular logic, as usual.

 

"Your filthy, sinful, selfish act against God's will resulted in the potential life of this precious soul, handpicked by God to be born exactly a certain way at this particular time for a specific reason that only God knows because he works in mysterious ways and doesn't make mistakes and you can't get in the way of God's plan but you also should have thought of the consequences of your sins first before you opened your legs you dirty slut."

 

And I also think that privileged fundies are thinking of abortions in context of themselves. As in...a young woman finds herself pregnant and has family to turn to for financial and emotional support. Um, that's not how most of the world works. They fight so hard to stop abortions but then what about when the precious baby is born? Where are they then? Taking care of the baby? Helping to pay for the baby's needs? Or ignoring it's existence while they continue ro picket outside the abortion clinic?

 

That said, I don't like the idea of late term abortions. But I just try to focus on my own life and let others be.

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Because God has the right to kill people. Abortion protestors who think it's against the bible don't care if anyone dies. They just care that we have insulted God by destroying "his" creation. One fundy writer put it this way: it would be wrong for him to go and pull up someone else's garden, but if the gardener wants to kill things he made, that's okay. It's all about God's ownership of us.

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Guest sweetcakes

The reason they are against it is because it's in the Bible ( if I remember correctly )

 

This however is a very very touchy topic in general. We all can rule out that Christians are afraid to disobey their God and destroying his creation is terrible in their eyes. At the end of a day no one can tell what a woman is to do with her body. If she wants to have an abortion she can.

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The reason they are against it is because it's in the Bible ( if I remember correctly )

 

 

Actually no., the bible never specifically mentions abortion. The time it comes closest to it actually advocates it, when a man who suspects his wife of cheating must bring her before a priest and drink the "bitter water" to make her miscarry.

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Given that nature aborts babies

 

Given that God kills babies in The Bible

 

Given that giving birth to a baby means to inflict eternal fire on it after death (according to the Good News in the Good Book)

 

 

You make a great point here.  In the theology of many denominations abortion often cheats hell out of a soul.  But that leads to the problem of why didn't God abort all of us?  Let us all skip this horrible life and jump strait to the good part in heaven.

 

Yet other Christian denominations have theology where aborted fetuses go strait to hell if they were headed there anyway which makes God a dick and begs the question why not skip this life and have everybody go strait to their eternal destiny.

 

Either way the theology falls apart.

 

 

Why do believers oppose abortion, is it because (in their theology) in deprives God of extra victims

 

Because Christians believe whatever their pastor tells them to believe.

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They didnt oppose abortion until the late 1970s, when Carter proposed the equal rights amendment (women's rights) and wealthy GOP backers started a propaganda campaign in the evangelical churches. Anti-abortion politics is all about controlling women.

Well, if by "they" you mean evangelicals, then yes this is accurate. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, however, have opposed abortion since the beginning of Christianity. I once found a second or third century creed which mentioned abortion in a negative light. I could probably do some Googling and look it up if you're interested.

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In all honesty, I oppose abortion. I opposed it before I ever became a Christian, and I still oppose it, although I was rapidly deconverting by this time a year ago. It is a deep, personal belief, one that has hit me at times with incredible, almost subconscious force. At age 19 I became unexpectedly pregnant. The baby's father wanted me to abort. I didn't have to consider the choice even for a microsecond. I knew from the depth of my soul that my baby was alive, and that it wasn't my place to end that life. She is now a 15 year old girl.

 

At the age of 32, I had to go through a D & C to remove the body of my approximately 11-week fetus who had passed. The grief I felt at knowing a surgical instrument was going to tear my (dead) baby's body apart was overwhelming.

 

It isn't a religious thing, for me. It just isn't something I can support, no matter how many conversations I've had with those who hold opposing viewpoints. To me, there is a moment in time when life begins, like a ray in geometry... it can go one way, but can never go back. Once it exists, it will keep existing unless nature or human ceases the process. I can't think of any scenario that could justify that process being ended by another human's choice.

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In all honesty, I oppose abortion. I opposed it before I ever became a Christian, and I still oppose it, although I was rapidly deconverting by this time a year ago. It is a deep, personal belief, one that has hit me at times with incredible, almost subconscious force. At age 19 I became unexpectedly pregnant. The baby's father wanted me to abort. I didn't have to consider the choice even for a microsecond. I knew from the depth of my soul that my baby was alive, and that it wasn't my place to end that life. She is now a 15 year old girl.

 

At the age of 32, I had to go through a D & C to remove the body of my approximately 11-week fetus who had passed. The grief I felt at knowing a surgical instrument was going to tear my (dead) baby's body apart was overwhelming.

 

It isn't a religious thing, for me. It just isn't something I can support, no matter how many conversations I've had with those who hold opposing viewpoints. To me, there is a moment in time when life begins, like a ray in geometry... it can go one way, but can never go back. Once it exists, it will keep existing unless nature or human ceases the process. I can't think of any scenario that could justify that process being ended by another human's choice.

 

I am sorry for your loss.  

 

You haven't said whether you would vote to reduce or end access to legal abortion for other women.  I am fine with each person having their views on the matter but where I draw the line is when they try to control my body.  I am already a legal person and I have rights.

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Thanks, FreeThinker NZ, for your sympathy. To answer your question... that's where it's hard. I struggle to understand the line of thinking that says that the two bodies are not separate; that it is all about the body, or rights, of the grown woman.

I always said in the past that, yes, I would vote to end abortion. I was challenged to take it a step further: what, then, would be the punishment for a woman who had gone ahead and had an abortion anyway? Should she go to jail? If I remain consistent in my thinking, I don't know how else to answer that, other than yes.

I can't shake these views, or the protective instinct that I feel toward unborn children. I know it pisses people off; especially other women. But no pro-choicer yet has been able to make me see their side as being correct.

It isn't easy to state; especially on a forum like ex-c where I've found so much understanding and "fellowship" (to borrow a word from the Christians). I just can't see it otherwise...

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Aiyana I respect your point of view.  And I appreciate that it is well thought-out and not based on religion.  I think what irritates me the most about the majority of anti-choice proponents is that their views are not well thought-out, and they are based on the lies and distortions of religion.  And some of them insert themselves at the doors of health facilities, and terrorise all patients, not just those having abortions. And some actually kill health professionals.  Theirs is not a "pro-life" stance at all, and that's why I don't use the term to refer to them.

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In all honesty, I oppose abortion. I opposed it before I ever became a Christian, and I still oppose it, although I was rapidly deconverting by this time a year ago. It is a deep, personal belief, one that has hit me at times with incredible, almost subconscious force. At age 19 I became unexpectedly pregnant. The baby's father wanted me to abort. I didn't have to consider the choice even for a microsecond. I knew from the depth of my soul that my baby was alive, and that it wasn't my place to end that life. She is now a 15 year old girl.

 

At the age of 32, I had to go through a D & C to remove the body of my approximately 11-week fetus who had passed. The grief I felt at knowing a surgical instrument was going to tear my (dead) baby's body apart was overwhelming.

 

It isn't a religious thing, for me. It just isn't something I can support, no matter how many conversations I've had with those who hold opposing viewpoints. To me, there is a moment in time when life begins, like a ray in geometry... it can go one way, but can never go back. Once it exists, it will keep existing unless nature or human ceases the process. I can't think of any scenario that could justify that process being ended by another human's choice.

 

So you are totally ok with a woman being raped and then being forced or told "you WILL have this child..."

 

can't say I will ever agree with others thinking they know what is best for anyone but themselves.

 

It matters what you want for yourself so much that the only way to really ever be honest in having it is to give others that same right.

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In all honesty, I oppose abortion. I opposed it before I ever became a Christian, and I still oppose it, although I was rapidly deconverting by this time a year ago. It is a deep, personal belief, one that has hit me at times with incredible, almost subconscious force. At age 19 I became unexpectedly pregnant. The baby's father wanted me to abort. I didn't have to consider the choice even for a microsecond. I knew from the depth of my soul that my baby was alive, and that it wasn't my place to end that life. She is now a 15 year old girl.

 

At the age of 32, I had to go through a D & C to remove the body of my approximately 11-week fetus who had passed. The grief I felt at knowing a surgical instrument was going to tear my (dead) baby's body apart was overwhelming.

 

It isn't a religious thing, for me. It just isn't something I can support, no matter how many conversations I've had with those who hold opposing viewpoints. To me, there is a moment in time when life begins, like a ray in geometry... it can go one way, but can never go back. Once it exists, it will keep existing unless nature or human ceases the process. I can't think of any scenario that could justify that process being ended by another human's choice.

 

Alyana, I understand how this is something you could not do because you decided not to. It is personal. You felt that way. And you feel that way. You are glad you where free to decide to have the baby. Now imagine a girl who feels the opposite...that is what it comes down to. Would you want a woman who is hating what is growing in her belly have that child?

 

I have a friend who got pregnant in a really bad situation and the father of her child wanted to give her money to have an abortion (which is ridiculous anyways since abortions are payed by health care insurance here). She thought about it but decided to have the child and is happy she did. Also it was her life dream to have children, not in such a situation but that is another story. She told me how she could never have had an abortion. Good she kept it. But that is her. Unfortunately the dad of the child is not happy and tells her so because now he has to pay...(even though he has plenty of money to do so...) and that I think is disgusting. Because he wanted to be in bed with her and so he should own up his part instead of making her feel guilty for her decision.

 

If I got pregnant I really can't say if I would have an abortion or not. Maybe yes, maybe no. I think that will be something I would decide when the situation would present itself. Sure I would listen to my innermost and it might be possible that I would have the baby because of that. But I don't judge anyone who does not. We can not make our own feelings and decisions the standard we put on others.

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I am definitely not "okay" with a woman being raped and forced to have a child... because I'm not okay with a woman being raped. That situation fucking sucks, and it's situations like it that make this such a heartwrenching topic. All I know is that logic, mathematics, and science tell me that a being's life begins the moment it is conceived; or maybe, the moment of implantation, I haven't come down to a definite defendable decision on that point.

I can't justify the killing of another human being. Not in the case of rape, or incest, nothing. I wouldn't justify the killing of a one-day-old child and I can't justify the killing of a fetus. I don't hold to silly notions that an undeveloped fetus feels pain; it doesn't become about that aspect of it until much later on. It's about robbing that person of their chance to BE.

I don't know if human beings have souls or not. It doesn't matter on this issue. In fact, I could argue that if we do NOT have souls, abortion is even more of a grave injustice; robbing that person of their ONLY chance to be.

It sucks that a real live woman is affected by these things; especially in the case of rape. The fact that she was raped sucks ass. But the abortion does not take that experience away.

Moanareina, you say that we can't make our own feelings and decisions the standard we put on others... but we do this all the time, for everything. We feel that "live" children ought not to be killed; we feel that people ought to have a right to their own possessions; we feel that children ought to go to school. I know there are people who could make their case for killing live children; for all property being communal; and for children not going to school.

I guess it all comes back to the "universal morals" that Christians so often talk about. Is the ceasing of killing fetuses something that would move humanity closer to that universal standard of morality? I believe it would; regardless of religion.

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It isn't easy to state; especially on a forum like ex-c where I've found so much understanding and "fellowship" (to borrow a word from the Christians). I just can't see it otherwise...

 

I don't think any less of you simply because we disagree on this issue.   I don't mind talking about it or explaining but it sounds like that isn't going to change your mind.  Of course a fetus is a live human.  I still support the mother's right to kill it.  It isn't an emotionally appealing thing.  Abortion is an all around unpleasant idea however when you look at the big picture it is very necessary.  If we sent women to jail for it then we would live in a world where most women were in jail.

 

Kudos to you on raising your daughter.  You wanted her and it was your call to make.  

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I used to be firmly into the pro-life camp myself. Now I'm firmly in the pro-choice camp if, for no other reason, I think the woman (not the government or a religious institution) is the best person to make that choice, whichever choice she ends up making. 

 

Here's a great blog article by a woman who went from being pro-life to pro-choice: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

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 It's about robbing that person of their chance to BE.

 

Thing is, a ball of cells so far has no consciousness that it will be a person that has a chance to be once it is out of the womb. So it would just not be. Means it would not have to deal with all the hardship an unwanted child has to go through. No abuse can take place. Because unwanted children often are victims of abuse. This said I don't think unplanned children as unwanted per se. Those who have chosen to give birth to their child without the influence of others truly wanted their child. But a child that gets into this world even though it's mother did not want it to be, usually has a hard life and might wish to never have been born.

 

When I was a child I often thought about how it would be if I never had been born. Because I really did not chose to be born. It was my mom who did against all odds. Now this is OK, it was her choice. But if she had chosen otherwise, I would simply not be. And that would be fine too. No one would care. Everyone would live their lives as they do now.

 

And that all said I want to say, that I am not for taking it all light heartedly. I don't see abortion as a way of contraception. And I think those people who abort a child simply because they wish it to have a different birth date or whatever should not be allowed to have children at all. But I think a woman should have a real choice. Means no one should talk her into anything. Nor abortion, nor birth. And there should be enough resources for her to do that decision without having to consider her economical situation. Also I think to abort a child after a certain time is not really the way to go. Then again I have never been in a situation where I had to consider abortion. But to have the option is the only way to give a woman a real choice. Because then if she decides to have the child, it will be wanted. When she decides not to, but due to having made a standard of the way others feel about their own pregnancies and that forced on her (means forbidden by law) she ll give birth to it, there might be a hard life waiting for that baby. If that child will be thankful for having the chance to be is questionable.

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I don't see abortion as a way of contraception.

 

No one does. 

 

 And I think those people who abort a child simply because they wish it to have a different birth date or whatever should not be allowed to have children at all. 

 

That may be one of the most ridiculous claims I've heard in a while.

 

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