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Goodbye Jesus

Abortion


Castiel233

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In all honesty, I oppose abortion. I opposed it before I ever became a Christian, and I still oppose it, although I was rapidly deconverting by this time a year ago. It is a deep, personal belief, one that has hit me at times with incredible, almost subconscious force. At age 19 I became unexpectedly pregnant. The baby's father wanted me to abort. I didn't have to consider the choice even for a microsecond. I knew from the depth of my soul that my baby was alive, and that it wasn't my place to end that life. She is now a 15 year old girl.

 

At the age of 32, I had to go through a D & C to remove the body of my approximately 11-week fetus who had passed. The grief I felt at knowing a surgical instrument was going to tear my (dead) baby's body apart was overwhelming.

 

It isn't a religious thing, for me. It just isn't something I can support, no matter how many conversations I've had with those who hold opposing viewpoints. To me, there is a moment in time when life begins, like a ray in geometry... it can go one way, but can never go back. Once it exists, it will keep existing unless nature or human ceases the process. I can't think of any scenario that could justify that process being ended by another human's choice.

I respect the potency of your experience. Allow me to present a hypothetical example that doesn't involve any rapes...

 

Say I accidentally knock up my wife. Let's further say that neither of us feels the same attachment to the zygote that others like yourself may, and opt within a week or three that we're not interested in keeping it. Do you believe it is the state's role to interject itself into my family affair at this point?

 

Just asking this to get a feel for your position on the issue at the point where it might actually affect me. Please feel free to speak your mind without fear of reprisal.

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I am definitely not "okay" with a woman being raped and forced to have a child... because I'm not okay with a woman being raped. That situation fucking sucks, and it's situations like it that make this such a heartwrenching topic. All I know is that logic, mathematics, and science tell me that a being's life begins the moment it is conceived; or maybe, the moment of implantation, I haven't come down to a definite defendable decision on that point.

I can't justify the killing of another human being. Not in the case of rape, or incest, nothing. I wouldn't justify the killing of a one-day-old child and I can't justify the killing of a fetus. I don't hold to silly notions that an undeveloped fetus feels pain; it doesn't become about that aspect of it until much later on. It's about robbing that person of their chance to BE.

I don't know if human beings have souls or not. It doesn't matter on this issue. In fact, I could argue that if we do NOT have souls, abortion is even more of a grave injustice; robbing that person of their ONLY chance to be.

It sucks that a real live woman is affected by these things; especially in the case of rape. The fact that she was raped sucks ass. But the abortion does not take that experience away.

Moanareina, you say that we can't make our own feelings and decisions the standard we put on others... but we do this all the time, for everything. We feel that "live" children ought not to be killed; we feel that people ought to have a right to their own possessions; we feel that children ought to go to school. I know there are people who could make their case for killing live children; for all property being communal; and for children not going to school.

I guess it all comes back to the "universal morals" that Christians so often talk about. Is the ceasing of killing fetuses something that would move humanity closer to that universal standard of morality? I believe it would; regardless of religion.

 

When life begins is still sort of the center of debate in many ways actually. I disagree that a wad of cells is what we would call life or sentient life. Bacteria is alive but I destroy it on a daily basis.

 

I don't believe in morals let alone universal morals. I believe in ethics. It is unethical to let a woman die to save her child if she can live instead to have another as she is already viable. It is unethical to deny a woman of force pregnancy to not abort her fetus. Morality is a dangerous thing. It requires you base how you will act on a belief system that may have questionable practices to begin with.

 

Most base it on religion others on their personal creed. Logic dicates ethics. Logic almost always is the smarter way to go and make decisions with.

 

I hear your views and even if I don't agree with them in true fashion I would defend you against anyone that said you have no moral right to have them. Without opposing views we can never find the best path for the many and stop the wishes of the few from taking precident.

 

The abortion may not take away the experience of rape but looking at that child for the rest of her life for some women may just make them relive it over and over. It should be her choice always for any reason not the populations or the judges or our government. frankly it is between her and the universe and no one else.

 

prove right and wrong are anything more than a human construct and I would say that abortion will then have only one answer.

 

I will say this one thing in defense of life. Abortion is not birth control and has no place being used that way. For many reasons. Women and men need to learn responsibility and use the tools of the modern world to control themselves and our population not abortion. Can you imagine if Chinese citizens were allowed to have 10 children per family? I will let you do the math on that one. Personally I was here first and deserver the air more than an entity that has proven nothing, won no honor and commited no acts on this planet. I really do not understand how we can destroy all kinds of stuff around us as a a group but them some of us defend the value of human life to be higher than that which we destroy without thought.

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I've spent a lot of time with people who have had horrible childhoods.. and I mean friction' nightmarish - things that would curdle your blood. They are messed up, in pain and will likely never function well… most have addiction and mental health problems. There are more of them than you know… it is prevalent in our culture.

 

It's sad… and most were not planned, or not wanted, or their parent(s) had serious issues of their own. Most of the people I have met who have been in foster care have horror stories to tell as well (and those who are adopted aren't always 'loved' either) Let's tackle child abuse ... it is an insidious and terrible thing and one rarely comes through that well (though there are exceptions - for the most part it is highly destructive).

 

I've also spoken with women so desperate they had back alley abortions… some are scarred for life.. I know some don't make it through. No woman should have to resort to butchers, risking their lives and health. Without access to legal abortion these places will multiply and exploit these women. Infanticide is also a choice that will happen in some cases. Again - happens more than you would think. Abortion isn't going to go away - it just gets uglier and much riskier.

 

Pregnancy also has serious risks.. women can and do die bearing and birthing children. They lose teeth, calcium in their bones… develop diabetes, or anemia and many other life-threatening complications.

 

I refuse to tell people to deny their sexuality and need for physical affection. It wouldn't work anyway - it's way too strong of a drive.

 

There's too many people on this planet now. Breeding to keep the human race going is... kind of a joke. Let's feed and care for the children that are here now.

 

I support male birth control.. I also support those who wish to be sterilized during their childbearing/producing years - if they so wish.

 

Nope, I can not justify forcing someone to bear and raise a child against their will. I do however support better birth control education, better access to it, as well as many other support systems that will help those who do and do not choose to have children. 

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Abortion is a hot topic here in the US.

 

Most of the arguments against it are based around some imaginary value attributed to a clump of cells inside of a woman's uterus. Oh the potential! How could YOU kill an INNOCENT BABY!! You piece of shit murdering scumbag fuckhead! You is going to hellz!!!

 

Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

My Unpopular Opinion:

 

The religious right only wants abortion to made illegal so that more white babies will be born. It's true. Look at the fucking teabaggers. 98% white folks. Gothardites. 99% white folks (only non-whites are pity-adoptees). Unfortunately (and I used to have stats on this, long since I lost the source), only ~40% of abortions are classified as abortions performed on white women. Most are performed on women in the mid 20s-mid 30s, and a great deal of abortions are performed on black women and "other" women. Hispanics are the least likely to have abortions, probably because many are Catholic and abortion is verboten in the Catholic church currently.

 

So really, the anti-abortion crowd here in the US is full of shit. They want to control the birth rates of their own kind. They want to stop the reasonably educated and wealthy women who are stealing their cushy corporate jobs and keeping their arrogant firstborn sons from inheriting their god-given positions in corporate America and politics. They want to turn the clock back to the late 50s/early 60s. They can't stand that the masses of young women are going to college, graduating, working and not marrying until they are ready (if ever). They can't stand to see women being sexually and physically liberated, and having real choices and autonomy.

 

Their poor boys' clubs are crumbling, relics of bygone eras that no longer exist in America. The only way they can keep control is through their carefully constructed God-wank fairy tales of the American Dream that they spew in the churches across the nation every Sunday. Keep telling people to vote Republican, keep telling them not to send their kids to college, keep telling them to shelter and homeschool and above all, to keep having babies. If you can't have your own, adopt. If people would stop aborting their babies, there would be more to adopt! Because every Christian family totally adopts. Yeah fucking right.

 

Anyway, that's my 2.5 cents on abortion as it stands in the US. All of the anti-abortion drivel here is about having as many white American children as possible who will go to church, tithe, and vote conservative in every election until they die in some foreign land fighting a bullshit war or start their own ministry and beg for money incessantly.

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

 

 

Sorry but this goes into the same topic as the in the other thread...Why do you pick on me like that, I really don't get it. I like a good argument but you pretend as if we where disagreeing but you know, trying to undermine the rights to have an abortion is undermining womens rights and human rights. We are not disagreeing in any kind here. And my post was not even about that...I was simply explaining how Christians try to take away the possibilities and therefore the rights to have an abortion in a sneaky and dishonest way. I don't geht what you are at here really.

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

 

 

Sorry but this goes into the same topic as the in the other thread...Why do you pick on me like that, I really don't get it. I like a good argument but you pretend as if we where disagreeing but you know, trying to undermine the rights to have an abortion is undermining womens rights and human rights. We are not disagreeing in any kind here. And my post was not even about that...I was simply explaining how Christians try to take away the possibilities and therefore the rights to have an abortion in a sneaky and dishonest way. I don't geht what you are at here really.

 

 

I have never met a christian that was not sneaky and dishonest in the end. You sort of have to be eventually in that faith or just openly accept the hypocracy you are living with.

I guess we agree, problem solved.

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Believers may sometimes use abortion as framed as a moral question. Frank Turek did in his debate against Hitchens. Why is abortion OK, yet we (non believers) are outraged at the God approved murders in the OT.

 

There are a couple of distinctions here I think.

 

God has the power to wink people painlessly out of existence it is assumed. That He personally ordered them to be put to the sword when He has peaceful means at His disposal shows His cruelty and immorality.

 

A woman gets raped. She cannot will the baby out of existence and therefore chooses between abortion or giving birth. She has no supernatural powers to help her. Some Fundies would even deny her the right to abort in the case of rape. Showing their idiotic preference for religious dogma over her well being 

 

Humans are forced to make real decisions that really affect them. God makes decisions based (it appears) on His ego and savagery 

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

 

 

Sorry but this goes into the same topic as the in the other thread...Why do you pick on me like that, I really don't get it. I like a good argument but you pretend as if we where disagreeing but you know, trying to undermine the rights to have an abortion is undermining womens rights and human rights. We are not disagreeing in any kind here. And my post was not even about that...I was simply explaining how Christians try to take away the possibilities and therefore the rights to have an abortion in a sneaky and dishonest way. I don't geht what you are at here really.

 

 

I have never met a christian that was not sneaky and dishonest in the end. You sort of have to be eventually in that faith or just openly accept the hypocracy you are living with.

I guess we agree, problem solved.

 

 

No problem not solved. What was the point of your post? Why did you feel the need to pick out one sentence and start an argument about it pretending to have found a point of disagreement? That's what I don't get about you and you are doing it all the time with others as well.

 

And even that last statement of yours has not much to do with what my post was about. So no, we have not agreed yet about that. You have not asked me if I have ever met an honest christian and then I have said no and we agreed with that.

 

You know, it is kind of like I am telling you about my vacations and randomly mention a grey car that had only one insignificant appearance in my story but all you do is focusing on that car starting a discussion about that car not being grey but silver and that silver cars where mistakenly seen as grey...and while we might not even disagree you portray it as that huge thing we are arguing. That's how those posts of yours come across to me.

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The abortion topic ALWAYS stirs up strong emotions.

 

The question in the OP was:

 

Why do believers oppose abortion, is it because (in their theology) in deprives God of extra victims

 

 

Let's get back on track, please.  Otherwise I will lock the thread.

 

Thank you.

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The abortion topic ALWAYS stirs up strong emotions.

 

The question in the OP was:

 

Why do believers oppose abortion, is it because (in their theology) in deprives God of extra victims

 

 

Let's get back on track, please.  Otherwise I will lock the thread.

 

Thank you.

 

It is just the current trend. Christians oppose abortion cuz they been told it is important to think that way in order to fit in with their group.  

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

 

 

Sorry but this goes into the same topic as the in the other thread...Why do you pick on me like that, I really don't get it. I like a good argument but you pretend as if we where disagreeing but you know, trying to undermine the rights to have an abortion is undermining womens rights and human rights. We are not disagreeing in any kind here. And my post was not even about that...I was simply explaining how Christians try to take away the possibilities and therefore the rights to have an abortion in a sneaky and dishonest way. I don't geht what you are at here really.

 

 

I have never met a christian that was not sneaky and dishonest in the end. You sort of have to be eventually in that faith or just openly accept the hypocracy you are living with.

I guess we agree, problem solved.

 

 

No problem not solved. What was the point of your post? Why did you feel the need to pick out one sentence and start an argument about it pretending to have found a point of disagreement? That's what I don't get about you and you are doing it all the time with others as well.

 

And even that last statement of yours has not much to do with what my post was about. So no, we have not agreed yet about that. You have not asked me if I have ever met an honest christian and then I have said no and we agreed with that.

 

You know, it is kind of like I am telling you about my vacations and randomly mention a grey car that had only one insignificant appearance in my story but all you do is focusing on that car starting a discussion about that car not being grey but silver and that silver cars where mistakenly seen as grey...and while we might not even disagree you portray it as that huge thing we are arguing. That's how those posts of yours come across to me.

 

 

you can choose to completely ignore what I am saying that is fine. Don't expect different in these loaded posts you make. you don't like my opinion fine at least comment on that rather than just tell me how bad I suck. Don't worry to much about it though. I would just take it less personally and not feel so attacked as you are not who I was even referring to.

 

This thread is very far off topic it seems sorry if I derailed it.

 

is there anything left to say about abortion at this point in it at all?

 

I know many people who agree with my views about honesty, christians and abortion. it is totally ok if no one does so what difference does it make at all?

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The abortion topic ALWAYS stirs up strong emotions.

 

The question in the OP was:

 

Why do believers oppose abortion, is it because (in their theology) in deprives God of extra victims

 

 

Let's get back on track, please.  Otherwise I will lock the thread.

 

Thank you.

 

you should just lock it. These abortion threads get off track so fast and nothing new ever gets said. People just express views about it and others get offended.

 

Either its a womans right to choose or it isn't. the law says it is in America.

 

I disagree with the religous issues surrounding it but I also don't condone it as birth control.

it is a sticky topic in the world right now and will be for some time to come I am sure. I feel like everytime it gets talked about it ends up getting way off base and in this case that may be partly my fault... if so MY BAD.

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Yet where are all of these screaming protestors when these potential lives are born? Nowhere to be found, most of the time. They hate evil socialist programs that help women and children and they hate public schools. They can't stand the ghettos, the trailer parks, the harsh reality of what happens when unplanned and oft unwanted babies are brought into the world.

 

 

While christians are not in the same numbers here the issue is not that big but every once in a while they try to undermine abortion rights by taking it out of the healthcare plan (it is mandatory to have health care insurance here and the law tells the insurance what they have to cover for sure...and abortion is on that list) because if insurance payed for abortions, they would indirectly support abortion with their health care insurance...

Now the very same people are so opposed to sexual education in schools and kindergarden (and well, one can ask if you should teach kindergardeners about sex but depending on how it is done probably yes) and start fear campaigns about pedophiles wanting to undermine the school system and all...

I have grown up with no sexual education at all and it was only because I have been an outcast in school and my chances to hook up with a boy or to say with the boy I had a crush on where little to none...that I have not come home pregnant. And I am sure if I got home pregnant everyone would just have blamed me for it and made me feel ashamed of myself etc.

 

 

 

They are not trying to undermine abortion rights. They are trying to undermine womans rights and human right.

 

 

Sorry but this goes into the same topic as the in the other thread...Why do you pick on me like that, I really don't get it. I like a good argument but you pretend as if we where disagreeing but you know, trying to undermine the rights to have an abortion is undermining womens rights and human rights. We are not disagreeing in any kind here. And my post was not even about that...I was simply explaining how Christians try to take away the possibilities and therefore the rights to have an abortion in a sneaky and dishonest way. I don't geht what you are at here really.

 

 

I have never met a christian that was not sneaky and dishonest in the end. You sort of have to be eventually in that faith or just openly accept the hypocracy you are living with.

I guess we agree, problem solved.

 

 

No problem not solved. What was the point of your post? Why did you feel the need to pick out one sentence and start an argument about it pretending to have found a point of disagreement? That's what I don't get about you and you are doing it all the time with others as well.

 

And even that last statement of yours has not much to do with what my post was about. So no, we have not agreed yet about that. You have not asked me if I have ever met an honest christian and then I have said no and we agreed with that.

 

You know, it is kind of like I am telling you about my vacations and randomly mention a grey car that had only one insignificant appearance in my story but all you do is focusing on that car starting a discussion about that car not being grey but silver and that silver cars where mistakenly seen as grey...and while we might not even disagree you portray it as that huge thing we are arguing. That's how those posts of yours come across to me.

 

 

you can choose to completely ignore what I am saying that is fine. Don't expect different in these loaded posts you make. you don't like my opinion fine at least comment on that rather than just tell me how bad I suck. Don't worry to much about it though. I would just take it less personally and not feel so attacked as you are not who I was even referring to.

 

This thread is very far off topic it seems sorry if I derailed it.

 

is there anything left to say about abortion at this point in it at all?

 

I know many people who agree with my views about honesty, christians and abortion. it is totally ok if no one does so what difference does it make at all?

 

 

My last post on this thread because it is off topic and it was not me going off topic.

 

Again, it is not that I am opposing your opinion. You are free to have your opinion and all. What I see is not so much you stating your opinion. It is you taking a word or sentence out of context and making the thread go off topic and mostly it is just the use of words that you somehow are having a problem with. I don't care if you point out when I use a wrong word or so for what I try to say because as I said before I am not native in English. I have not even grown up with it and I don't even live in an English speaking country or environment. So chances are, that I use a word inappropriate once in a while and I am thankful for people telling me because that way I learn more about the use of US English. But please do so in a less offensive way that is not giving me the impression of you wanting to rant on me just for the sake of ranting. And I address it instead of ignoring it because it annoys me and I see it happen with you all the time and I am all for having a good discussion about opinions, if it is about opinions and the topic the thread is about. And also I addressed it to understand why you do do this. That's all.

 

And now back to abortion.

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FTNZ is right on the money on this one.

In the late 60s, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention said it was wrong to interfere with the decision of a young woman in trouble.

A question I had for Christians, when I still called myself one: If 70% of abortions are done out of economic reasons, why does Christianity ™ support mainly the Religious Right and the GOP? Clearly that doesn't afford a better financial situation to these people having abortions.

If abortion is wrong, then you are causing a murder by neglect, if the woman can't get prenatal care and the fetus dies. Skirt that one, cupcake.

If we had artificial wombs, I think we can say "when", does that mean the Right will automagically support state-sponsored wombs for fetuses that would otherwise be aborted? I think we know the answer to that one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a lib, kind of a independent semi-nonnstatist. But these aren't.

Anyway, not that they are cognizant of the sciences, but there is more and more work being done to indicate where the "consciousness switch" resides in the brain. Once that is solidified it won't be a debate anymore, except in church.

I've been skeptical for quite a few years about post-abortive trauma. If they're traumatized, what are they traumatized by? By being rushed in and out, or a bad or painful procedure? That is real, but that is trauma caused by someone doing it wrong. Are they traumatized because of the surrounding culture sending them these messages? Again, that's trauma caused by a different source.

But before you blame all males and the patriarchy, whoever the patriarchy is, I found myself being blamed, as a man, inside the churches for being sympathetic to women in that situation. Yeppers, men cause abortions, according to lots of the women in there. And men who sympathize with women who have had abortions are selfish.

So, too bad so sad, I'm not trading in one original sin of an apple for another original sin of a gender. It's powerful people doing corrupt things is why this rigged situation is what it is. When we lived in FL, most the people sloshing around biohazardous cow's blood and making absolute asses of themselves protesting were women. In fact, as a manager at work, I told a couple of them to tone it down and not bring their biohazardous agents (my words, which are true if you look up Hazmat), into the workplace. Their response? "You can't tell us, as a man, what is our fight." I'm not saying males like Prick Perry and Peppermint Patty Robertson aren't involved: they are. But it simply boggled my weary mind how the majority of people being difficult about this on the ground were actually women. You could not have convinced me of it, had I not actually witnessed such lemming behavior.

So, I'm not buying the gender argument for either side. Where in the hell did them animals get the blood for their activities anyway? Just an aside.

Anyway I'm hoping the neurosciences will solve this with some data clear and simple.

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Having an abortion is murder scream believers and its interfering with Gods will they further cry. Let’s look at the “Gods will from another angle.

 

Years ago (I may have mentioned this before, sorry can’t remember) There was a documentary on two families, both wives were infertile. Both wives had IVF and both got pregnant and both were carrying five foetuses each.  

 

Doctors warned on the risks of carrying all babies to full term and advised on terminating three for each woman. The first woman agreed, accepting professional medical advice. The second woman took advice from her local priest who advised her it was “Gods will” she carried all five to full term.

 

Fast forward several years. The first woman had twins, both healthy and happy.

 

The second woman’s home was like a make shift hospital, all five children were disabled, one would never leave their bed, one would spend life in a wheel chair, one was partially sighted and extremely deaf, etc, all faced significant challenges through life. Momma was beaming, her children were gifts from God and she had done Gods will by carrying them full term, the priest (who would never have the responsibility to look after the children) agreed, she had done Gods will.

 

Let’s back it up:

 

Both women were INFERTILE……a very important thing missed by the second woman and her frock and cross wearing friend. God had sent a message……it was a no. So overcoming Gods will via IVF is good, yet aborting some foetuses (because God wants you to give birth to severely disabled children), is bad. Abortion we are told is immoral yet nature miscarriages throughout the animal kingdom……ah say believers, when it’s a miscarriage its natural, we must not perform any medical act that goes against nature, praise Jesus. Yet these same believers, without any sense of irony, will have a pace maker fitting (even thou its un-natural) and will take all sorts of medicines to prolong their lives, even though Jesus is calling them “home”.

 

 It’s the same mindset of pro lifers who scream abuse outside abortion clinics yet murmur their approval as the US (with help from its “best” friend the UK) rains bombs down on civilians in the Middle East.

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Having an abortion is murder scream believers and its interfering with Gods will they further cry. Let’s look at the “Gods will from another angle.

 

Years ago (I may have mentioned this before, sorry can’t remember) There was a documentary on two families, both wives were infertile. Both wives had IVF and both got pregnant and both were carrying five foetuses each.  

 

Doctors warned on the risks of carrying all babies to full term and advised on terminating three for each woman. The first woman agreed, accepting professional medical advice. The second woman took advice from her local priest who advised her it was “Gods will” she carried all five to full term.

 

Fast forward several years. The first woman had twins, both healthy and happy.

 

The second woman’s home was like a make shift hospital, all five children were disabled, one would never leave their bed, one would spend life in a wheel chair, one was partially sighted and extremely deaf, etc, all faced significant challenges through life. Momma was beaming, her children were gifts from God and she had done Gods will by carrying them full term, the priest (who would never have the responsibility to look after the children) agreed, she had done Gods will.

 

Let’s back it up:

 

Both women were INFERTILE……a very important thing missed by the second woman and her frock and cross wearing friend. God had sent a message……it was a no. So overcoming Gods will via IVF is good, yet aborting some foetuses (because God wants you to give birth to severely disabled children), is bad. Abortion we are told is immoral yet nature miscarriages throughout the animal kingdom……ah say believers, when it’s a miscarriage its natural, we must not perform any medical act that goes against nature, praise Jesus. Yet these same believers, without any sense of irony, will have a pace maker fitting (even thou its un-natural) and will take all sorts of medicines to prolong their lives, even though Jesus is calling them “home”.

 

 It’s the same mindset of pro lifers who scream abuse outside abortion clinics yet murmur their approval as the US (with help from its “best” friend the UK) rains bombs down on civilians in the Middle East.

 

 

I know others will totally disagree and say I am splitting hairs here but the issue with your story is not abortion the issue is with modern fertility practices.

 

Doctors should never implant that many. I know it increases their chances of getting a viable one but maybe they should accept the fact their body is telling them DO NOT GIVE BIRTH and go adopt a child instead.

 

There are 1000's of kids that need adoption and good parents that don't have any. When I hear about women having 5 kids or being fertalized with so many I really wonder if they care about kids or just making sure they have one of their own to show off that is their blood. I have sympothy for that I really do but I have more for a kid that will never know the joy of parents who love him or her.

 

And yes the propensity for christians to stay alive as long as they can seem weird based on their faith but totally normal based on their humanity. We all want as much as we can get because frankly we have no clue what comes after. If it is nothing then we best get what we can in the now.

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The issue at hand is that she was infertile, God had spoken, so that should have been the end of the matter in a Christian worldview.

 

I agree that it is weird for Christians  to want to stay on Earth as long as they can, given the Paradise they are promised from their faith. If they really believed it, a diagnosis of something fatal should be met with joy, but it isn't.....because I don't really believe most of them really believe it when one looks how they base their real life decisions. Do stricken Christians rely purely on prayer, of course not, its medicine, and overwhelmingly so .There is a very good reason the clergy offer spiritual advice and comfort rather then healing prayer that really heals.....because prayer does.not.work.

 

"In church they sing how they long to live with Jesus, yet do all they can to put that  evil day off" Joseph McCabe, former priest turned atheist author

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Create baby who according to your belief system is most likely to spend 80+ years toiling on earth followed by never-ending years of burning alive whilst kept on some kind of life-support, screaming, wailing, and gnashing their teeth in a giant eternal furnace:   MORAL!

 

Quickly terminate baby's life in the womb before ever subjecting it to any manner of suffering:  EVIL!;

 

 

 

Dear Christians, the fact that you go about making babies means you are either in complete denial of your own belief system or else complete psycopaths.  "Loving Christian parent" is impossible.  If you are a loving Christian then you don't take a goddamned chance of your child being burnt forever. 

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Aiyana:  Unfortunately this computer won't let me quote, so I bolded and made the font bigger. And now this thing also won't put the font back to 14 point. "Life begins at conception"? A fertilized egg is a fertilized egg. It doesn't have physical feelings or emotions. It doesn't know fear or pain. Whether it is terminated does not matter to the egg. And it sure as hell should not be considered more important than the welfare of a person who did not even make the choice to have sex.

 

What is immoral is making decisions about other people's lives (like voting against abortion) based on your personal, gut feelings about whether an emotionless bit of tissue takes precedence over the life of a person with a future. So that woman should be forced to go through incredible physical pain giving birth to a child, and then 1) raise a child she is not ready to have, or 2) endure the suffering of giving her baby up for adoption. She has already been traumatized, and it's okay to make it worse for her because a collection of cells has rights?

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I think Christians often are against abortion because they follow the herd coupled with they can protest and feel good.they can hate on that object of their anger ....women, sexually active women, poorer people and can feel a sense of self righteous pride and revel in their own ignorance since few of them will find themselves in that situation.it also allows them to project their desire for people control.alot of feel good factors for them.

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Lilith666... I do believe that life begins at conception (or implantation). Like I said earlier, this is a belief that goes beyond any questions of morality for me, although morality comes into play with the issue, for sure. But that isn't why I state that life begins at conception. I state that because it is a simple fact. Like I said earlier, I think of the ray in geometry. It begins and moves forward. It has no way to go backward... only forward. If life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? There is no other scientific answer. Thinking of my daughter, who was an unplanned pregnancy. She sits on the couch watching a movie as I type this. She is 15 years old now. She exists because she began to exist one day in January of 1999. At that point, her existence was HERS. It doesn't matter that she did not know or feel when she was just a fertilized egg. It's the POTENTIAL that matters.

It's really, really shitty that women are raped. Inconceivably shitty. But I just don't think it gives anyone the right to steal the potential for life from that newly begun human.

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If life does not begin at conception, when does it begin? There is no other scientific answer. 

 

Wrong. You can say life began billions of years ago and is a continuous process. Science does not define when life begins, that's subjective morality.

 

If life begins at conception, would you support a law stating that the pads and tampons of all women be inspected to try and catch early miscarriages? Because an insanely high number of early pregnancies miscarry before a woman even knows she is pregnant, and many of these seem like late periods. Would you support the inspection law in order to mandate full funerals and death certificates for the fertilized cells?

 

Also, suppose you were in a hospital that was on fire. There are two rooms near you, and in one there is a tank with five fertilized embryos in it, in the other room is a five month old baby crying in a crib. You only have time to run into one room and save the occupant and get out safely. By your logic that the lives are no different, you would unquestionably run into the room with the embryos, right? 

 

Thinking of my daughter, who was an unplanned pregnancy. She sits on the couch watching a movie as I type this. She is 15 years old now. She exists because she began to exist one day in January of 1999. At that point, her existence was HERS. It doesn't matter that she did not know or feel when she was just a fertilized egg. It's the POTENTIAL that matters.

 

 

A friend of mine and his three siblings exist because his mother had an abortion when she was younger. Had she not terminated that pregnancy, she would have had to drop out of college, would not have gotten the job she did and would not have met her current husband, nor had the four kids she does now.

 

A lot of things factor into whether we exist or not. My father (and hence, me) exist because my grandfather's first two wives died of ectopic pregnancies (grandma was wife #3). I exist because the brutal civil war in El Salvador happened and made my grandparents send my father to the U.S. My younger brother exists because my mother's second pregnancy had to be terminated for health reasons. 

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Yes, it's true that "Life" began with the universe, but I am speaking of course, of individual lives. And, no, I would support no law to mandate funerals or death certificates for early miscarriages. I would not even support a law mandating a funeral or death certificate for late miscarriages. I lost my child at 15 weeks of pregnancy and had no funeral or death certificate for him or her. Their body was disposed of by the hospital and it ripped my heart out to know that.

 

To choose to rescue a five-month-old rather than several embryos does not prove that the embryos have no intrinsic value, or less intrinsic value than the baby. There are all kinds of situations where one might have to rescue someone and hence; not rescue someone else. My decision in such a hypothetical emergency would, indeed, be to rescue the baby, who has already begun his or her life with family; who can already feel pain and fear; who is already loved. I would still grieve the loss of the embryos and wish the possibility to save all of them had existed.
3.

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