Transcending Theism

[Orbit]

I am trying to work through something, and hope that the forum lurkers (I know you're there!) will contribute. In my own path, I am at something of a crossroads.

 

When I was a Christian, I was a very liberal, nondogmatic mystic with a New-Age God concept. I had several mystical experiences, which centered on union with God. I still think those experiences are valid and valuable. I also had one mind blowing experience that was not theistic at all that had to do with pure perception of consciousness and a trip through the universe. So, I'm now, and have always been a mystic at heart. I did not then, and do not now, have any use for dogma of any kind.

 

Here is the crossroads: I am now an atheist with pantheist leanings who finds Eastern mysticism appealing. I do non-theistic meditation, which is one way to reach mystic states. So in that sense, my basic spiritual makeup is unaltered: I'm still chasing mystic states. It has been recently pointed out to me that the "God" concept and related religious symbols and imageries are just that--imagery to be transcended; convenient shorthand for the indescribable; masks of the ineffable.

 

As I incorporate those ideas into my practice, I wonder if I can leave the God-baggage behind and truly be free of, or rather transcend theism in my efforts at mystical union.

 

So, I throw this open to the wisdom of the boards: Have you had a mystical experience? How do you incorporate that into your post-Christian worldview? General thoughts?

[Antlerman]

As I incorporate those ideas into my practice, I wonder if I can leave the God-baggage behind and truly be free of, or rather transcend theism in my efforts at mystical union.

I don't have the time for my typical more in-depth response, but I love your question. I'll just stick in one quote here that fits the above nicely. "I pray God to make me free of God, for [His] unconditioned Being is above God and all distinctions." ~Meister Eckhart.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I have had mystical experiences that I cannot yet explain. When I was a believer, I felt they confirmed the existence of my god at that time. I had no other framework that I believed was valid, so it served to confirm it (which works against transcending the paradigm, if the higher self is trying to get beyond it). Other believers didn't typically like the idea that I interacted with God or heard voices with clear information, but they were Baptist with some Charismatic leanings. Pentecostals had no issues with it. Now that I am on the outside, I wonder who it was that I heard and why I felt energy and heat a few times. If "it" knew that I was eventually going to come out of Christianity, then I suppose it could be seen as seeding the thoughts of a spiritual reality not generally accepted by classic atheism, so that I didn't reject the whole concept as hooey.

 

I don't know what led to these experiences. I was certainly seeking much more than I do now, barely even meditating currently. The last experience I had was a couple of years ago at a "new age" mind-body-spirit expo. In that one I saw a deity figure I had not ever dealt with and was quite unexpected (Sekhmet or perhaps Bast, from the Egyptian pantheon). I've been feeling disconnected from spiritual things, and hope to begin meditating again. All of these things serve as an impetus to at least be open to this realm.

[Deva]

I have had only two experiences which I would call "mystical" or "transcendent" and they were both when I was quite young.  I was still a Christian but I cannot link these experiences directly with anything Christian. One happened when I was sitting in a chair looking out a screen door. Just looking at the lawn. The other happened when I was thinking very deeply about death.  I was not thinking about heaven or any of the other Christian doctrine, I was just trying very hard to imagine what it would be like to be dead.

 

These two experiences, along with some dreams I have had, are part (certainly not all) of what lead me away from dogmatic hard-core fundamentalist Christianity.

[Neverlandrut]

I too find deep meaning in transcendent experience. I firmly do not believe in any god, but there is powerful symbolism from which we can derive meaning and powerful, helpful experiences. Anything that connects you with yourself and the world around you in a deeper, better way, I say go for it! I definitely think it is best to be rational about it at the same time and not get swept up in truth claims that tend to come with such concepts. I'm preaching to the choir. I know you know that. I suspect that mysticism has nothing to do with truth claims, but rather experience. I was really into emergent Christianity before deconverting. It is somewhat mystical. I actually still find many religious concepts symbolically beautiful. I compare it to art. "Truth" has nothing to do with art. It's all about how the art moves you, changes you,speaks to you. Spirituality is much the same way to me.

[Orbit]

I have had mystical experiences that I cannot yet explain. When I was a believer, I felt they confirmed the existence of my god at that time. I had no other framework that I believed was valid, so it served to confirm it (which works against transcending the paradigm, if the higher self is trying to get beyond it). Other believers didn't typically like the idea that I interacted with God or heard voices with clear information, but they were Baptist with some Charismatic leanings. Pentecostals had no issues with it. Now that I am on the outside, I wonder who it was that I heard and why I felt energy and heat a few times. If "it" knew that I was eventually going to come out of Christianity, then I suppose it could be seen as seeding the thoughts of a spiritual reality not generally accepted by classic atheism, so that I didn't reject the whole concept as hooey.

 

I don't know what led to these experiences. I was certainly seeking much more than I do now, barely even meditating currently. The last experience I had was a couple of years ago at a "new age" mind-body-spirit expo. In that one I saw a deity figure I had not ever dealt with and was quite unexpected (Sekhmet or perhaps Bast, from the Egyptian pantheon). I've been feeling disconnected from spiritual things, and hope to begin meditating again. All of these things serve as an impetus to at least be open to this realm.

Interesting post, Fuego. What do you mean by "it" (see bold above). Your higher self? What was your encounter with the Egyptian diety like? What did you take away from that experience?

[Orbit]

I too find deep meaning in transcendent experience. I firmly do not believe in any god, but there is powerful symbolism from which we can derive meaning and powerful, helpful experiences. Anything that connects you with yourself and the world around you in a deeper, better way, I say go for it! I definitely think it is best to be rational about it at the same time and not get swept up in truth claims that tend to come with such concepts. I'm preaching to the choir. I know you know that. I suspect that mysticism has nothing to do with truth claims, but rather experience. I was really into emergent Christianity before deconverting. It is somewhat mystical. I actually still find many religious concepts symbolically beautiful. I compare it to art. "Truth" has nothing to do with art. It's all about how the art moves you, changes you,speaks to you. Spirituality is much the same way to me.

I love this post, Neverlandrut. I like your point about truth in some cases being beside the point. I agree it's about experience, and the wisdom that we gain in reflecting on that experience, even years later.

[Deva]

Orbit: Not sure it would help very much.  These really were experiences beyond the everyday ordinary way of seeing the world. 

 

They were so qualitatively different that its very hard to describe and what words I can write will in no way convey the experience. The one with looking out the screen door - it happened before 1968 and I can still recall very well how amazing it was and some of the exact feeling of it.  The other, not quite so vivid, although it took place sometime in the early 70s. I will say I did not see figures, religious or otherwise. The whole experience of perception was altered. No drugs - I was far too young to have even had my first drink!

 

I did write this first experience down somewhere and I will see if I can find it. Not that I don't remember it, its just the words are kind of tough.

[Neverlandrut]

I had many transcendent experiences as a Christian, and have had several since becoming an atheist. When I was a Christian, I was charismatic toward the end. In that time, I was "filled with the spirit" and spoke in tongues. The first time it ever happened, it was an intensely powerful experience. Looking back, I know that there is no reason to believe that there was a god behind it. But it was a time in which I became more self aware. It put me in a state of meditation in which I felt like I became more awake, so to speak. For the lurkers, many of you will find this as confirmation of Christianity. I did for a long time. It isn't. Many religions and spiritual practices report similar phenomena. Social conditioning, extreme expectation, group think, and neuroscience can all perfectly explain these things, but don't think that that makes these experiences any less useful and even meaningful. Like I said above, "truth" is not the issue in such experiences. The experience and how it helps you connect with yourself and others is what is important. I care about whether or not claims are true. There is no evidential reason to think a god exists or that there is some literal spiritual realm at work. But transcendent experiences and practices are no less beautiful, and meaningful. I still find the idea of a loving god who was willing to sacrifice himself to save me to be a beautiful, poetic thought. It helps people deal with their own guilt and learn to forgive themselves. That's really what the gospel is, an anthropomorphic way that helps people forgive and love themselves. For Christians who accept god'sforgivness, they are simply forgiving themselves. When they accept god's love for them, they are simply loving themselves. There is absolutely no literal truth value to any of these notions. But they are symbols that help people deal with their own self awarness. I can and still do appreciate that.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

"If "it" knew that I was eventually going to come out of Christianity, then I suppose it could be seen as seeding the thoughts of a spiritual reality not generally accepted by classic atheism, so that I didn't reject the whole concept as hooey."

 

This is me making room for some consciousness other than my own mind ("it") prepping me for after I came out of Christianity. This is only a wild guess. IF there is some other realm that is giving us experiences, then giving experiences that re-enforce exclusive religions like Christianity seems counter-productive to us finding truth about that realm. So perhaps this was a way to give me hints that another realm isn't just hooey, which is what I'd conclude without any experiences. I'm more interested in what is true than having a solid answer I can plop out, and truth is sometimes complex. So nudging me towards what is true is better than a comfortable "there's no such thing as a spiritual realm" answer.

 

The Egyptian experience was odd. I've never gravitated towards Egypt in spiritual things, mostly preferring Celtic. But in a guided meditation by a woman psychic, a group of us were led to follow a "guide" to a room and open a box. Mine contained books, that I think I am going to write. Then at the end she said to look at the guide. When I did, I saw an Egyptian woman in classic white garb, blue beads in her black hair, and a face like a lion. She seemed to have a sort of Mona Lisa wry smile. Later in walking around the expo, I found a statue of her and was told her name is Sekhmet, a vicious protector. She has come up a few times in Tarot readings for me after that. I still don't really know what she means. Perhaps a bit of irony in an Egyptian god helping me write books about my deconversion, and thus helping undo the god of the Bible. I sometimes see her eyes as I'm falling asleep.

 

There was an early experience I just remembered, back around middle of high-school. I don't remember anything about it other than waking up slowly, and seeing a golden light moving in a clockwise circle, chasing its tail. I didn't want to open my eyes. I felt like I had been cradled in the arms of God and was at such entirely perfect peace I didn't want to move or speak for most of the day. I tried to convey that to my mom after getting up, and got a "That's nice dear". Like Deva said, there is no way to convey it. If there were, I'd do it all the time and take a load off of stressed people.

[Antlerman]

I had many transcendent experiences as a Christian, and have had several since becoming an atheist. When I was a Christian, I was charismatic toward the end. In that time, I was "filled with the spirit" and spoke in tongues. The first time it ever happened, it was an intensely powerful experience. Looking back, I know that there is no reason to believe that there was a god behind it. But it was a time in which I became more self aware. It put me in a state of meditation in which I felt like I became more awake, so to speak.

I was involved with the Pentecostal church and practiced speaking in tongues through their approach to 'being in the Spirit'. In all honesty, that very much is entering into altered states. What is crazy illogical is that the see meditation practice as "opening yourself to the devil", whereas in reality that is exactly what they are doing. It is a form of focused meditation and states of ecstatic speech that are very common in these states of heightened awareness.

 

I found many years later now when my meditation practice moved into deeper states that this practice of glossolalia in fact just started happening, after all these years! In fact it's quite common for this to happen in meditation for me as I move deeper through various states. I know one meditator who had never spoken in tongues, was never part of any church that did, nor ever had any second thought about it had that happen to her in meditation. My partner who is an atheist has that happen to her as well in meditation. It's completely natural.

 

Here's the thing about it. Do you ever use mantra repetitions in meditation practice? Om mani padme hum, or any number of chants? These are there for a purpose. They engage and focus the mind as the body engages in the utterances, which resonate the body and relax the mind. The purpose is not to dwell on the meaning of the words, but their rhythm and articulation of the phonemes. The mind just lets go into their motion and movement and sound. You pour yourself into them. What speaking in tongues is I heard perfectly described one time as a "jazz mantra". It becomes a free-form mantra, and its effect is like mantra-plus.

 

With anything like this of course, that not the goal, nor is it anything you try to produce. In the Charismatic churches, in the group setting this was really not the case. It is something sought after and considered a 'sign from God'. No, it's your own self moving you beyond your stuck-self in your ego, and like anything that comes along in ritual practices, they are aides that move you from point A to point B, and then they're done. It's not something that happens all the time, but I certainly get why and how, and understand and know the benefit of it.

 

For the lurkers, many of you will find this as confirmation of Christianity.

I think I may have just single-handedly dispelled that notion!

 

I did for a long time. It isn't. Many religions and spiritual practices report similar phenomena. Social conditioning, extreme expectation, group think, and neuroscience can all perfectly explain these things, but don't think that that makes these experiences any less useful and even meaningful.

Neuroscience doesn't exactly explain why it happens, but can talk about what happens when it does. "Why" is really coming from the state of the experience. The brain doesn't "cause" the experience, but is simply responding in this manner to this state experience. If it caused it, you'd have spontaneous eruptions during board room meetings and the like without the participation of the person's will! Imagine that.

Like I said above, "truth" is not the issue in such experiences. The experience and how it helps you connect with yourself and others is what is important.

Exactly correct. It doesn't validate belief systems. It does show that they are entering into altered states of consciousness however, just like all the rest of us.

[Antlerman]

So, I'm now, and have always been a mystic at heart. I did not then, and do not now, have any use for dogma of any kind.

Dogma is a substitute for experience. Those who are the True Believers™, are those are like Shakespeare's famous quote, "Methinks that lady doth protest too loudly". If they truly had mystical experience, a experience beyond their egos, they'd realize that it wholly transcends their beliefs needing to be taken so damned literally. You instantly become aware that beliefs are mental ideas, and mental ideas are not That! They become abundantly clear they are no more than grains of sand on an infinite shore, not the shoreline itself.

 

As I incorporate those ideas into my practice, I wonder if I can leave the God-baggage behind and truly be free of, or rather transcend theism in my efforts at mystical union.

I think God-baggage is simply reactions to the past negative sense it had because what you were looking for from them wasn't what God was to them. Their God is "up there" pulling all the strings of the little people down here, in charge of everything and you removed from him, despite their ironic theologies of reconciliation. It poisoned the well.

 

The use of 2nd person approaches to Self realization, has its definite positive gains, the key one being the ego has no place to hide such as in 1st and 3rd person approaches. If you empty yourself to the "Holy Other" (2nd person), you symbolically lay your ego bare before the Infinite. You surrender, and that surrender is you letting go of your small self in order to realize your true Self. It's a powerful way to really 'make what is hidden' exposed to yourself. You purify yourself, rid yourself of all you are already aware of subconsciously that hinders you from entering into your own liberation.

 

Now I can take this a lot further, but I'll let you chew on that for a bit.

[Orbit]

I think God-baggage is simply reactions to the past negative sense it had because what you were looking for from them wasn't what God was to them. Their God is "up there" pulling all the strings of the little people down here, in charge of everything and you removed from him, despite their ironic theologies of reconciliation. It poisoned the well.

I think you're right there.

 

The use of 2nd person approaches to Self realization, has its definite positive gains, the key one being the ego has no place to hide such as in 1st and 3rd person approaches. If you empty yourself to the "Holy Other" (2nd person), you symbolically lay your ego bare before the Infinite. You surrender, and that surrender is you letting go of your small self in order to realize your true Self. It's a powerful way to really 'make what is hidden' exposed to yourself. You purify yourself, rid yourself of all you are already aware of subconsciously that hinders you from entering into your own liberation.

And here comes the "stupid question": How exactly does one go about the 2nd person approach? I know what I'm doing in the 3rd person, but am quite clueless about the 2nd person approach.

 

Now I can take this a lot further, but I'll let you chew on that for a bit.

I process fast--don't leave me hanging!

[VacuumFlux]

 

The use of 2nd person approaches to Self realization, has its definite positive gains, the key one being the ego has no place to hide such as in 1st and 3rd person approaches. If you empty yourself to the "Holy Other" (2nd person), you symbolically lay your ego bare before the Infinite. You surrender, and that surrender is you letting go of your small self in order to realize your true Self. It's a powerful way to really 'make what is hidden' exposed to yourself. You purify yourself, rid yourself of all you are already aware of subconsciously that hinders you from entering into your own liberation.

And here comes the "stupid question": How exactly does one go about the 2nd person approach? I know what I'm doing in the 3rd person, but am quite clueless about the 2nd person approach.

 

 

It's easiest for me when doing budha/bodhisattva meditation. That's because there's this stated idea in Buddhism that they're not gods; they're... not even exactly individual persons (and yet they are...). Lately I've doing doing a meditaiton on Tara. There are multiple (incompatible) myths about her origins, whether she was the tear of a buddha who brought so many to enlightenment but was sad about how much suffering still existed, or whether she was originally a human. But she's also the compassion of all the other Buddhas. That last bit lets the part of me that's anti-deity think "oh, I'm not really praying to a being, I'm just focusing on an abstract ideal that I want to embody". But the rest of me, in order to make it effective, does address her in the second person and envision her as an actual being. And from what I understand, I think either way of imagining her, either as a real being that I'm praying to, or as an abstract idea, are valid within Buddhism, so I don't feel like I'm warping the practice to my own ends by using it this way.

 

When I first deconverted, I was so burned on the christian god that I couldn't do second person anything for a while. I still don't think I could do monotheism nor hard polytheism, but the second person thing really did work well for me so it's nice to find a way I can do that without betraying myself.

[Antlerman]

 

The use of 2nd person approaches to Self realization, has its definite positive gains, the key one being the ego has no place to hide such as in 1st and 3rd person approaches. If you empty yourself to the "Holy Other" (2nd person), you symbolically lay your ego bare before the Infinite. You surrender, and that surrender is you letting go of your small self in order to realize your true Self. It's a powerful way to really 'make what is hidden' exposed to yourself. You purify yourself, rid yourself of all you are already aware of subconsciously that hinders you from entering into your own liberation.

And here comes the "stupid question": How exactly does one go about the 2nd person approach? I know what I'm doing in the 3rd person, but am quite clueless about the 2nd person approach.

 

I thought about this last night and I may have a good suggestion, which somewhat dovetails into Vacuum Flux's response above which is a good one. Find a substitute Face, a 'safe' one that is not laden with baggage for you. Hinduism has them aplenty! Plus they are incredibly beautiful and powerful in significance, like the Taras he just mentioned in the last post. My favorite is Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge, music, arts, wisdom, and nature.

 

I'm going to make a book recommendation for you I thought of awhile back. It's not an academic work, so don't worry. It's one I think will help a lot for anyone who is either a beginning or an experienced meditator. It's not a "how to meditate" book, as much as it is pointing in in a direction of understanding that gets you on a good course. The book is by Sally Kempton, Meditation for the Love of It.

 

She has a chapter in there called "Letting the Shakti Lead". Shakti is the personification of divine feminine creative power, the dynamic forces that move through the universe (to borrow some descriptions from Wiki there). In that chapter, or somewhere else she speaks about asking for guidance in meditation to Shakti, or your Guru, or just out into the Unknown. It is an extremely powerful tool. I cannot stress that enough. It is something I do all the time in meditation, "Lead me", "Teach me," "Show me", "Guide me", etc, are just simple phrases I speak in my mind as I reach a certain place where I am unfocused, not attuned, not aligned, etc. In other words drawn back into myself, stuck in myself at the place in meditation. Those simple words shifts you and opens you to becoming receptive. You open your mind and your heart and are ready to receive. And I think "recieve' is a key word here.

 

Everytime I do this, there is an immediate movement beyond where I am at to deeper levels, new awareness, new illumination, new knowledge. It's really simple if you think about it. In Sally Kempton's book above she say in one place what I think summarizes the entire approach to any effective meditation practice. You engage in it 'With intention but without expectation.' Those two principles right there put paradoxically together. "Guide me" is you realigning your intention. You bring yourself back to your purpose, which purpose is to be their receptively, emptying yourself of any anticipation or expectation. And bang, there you are. Sitting there before the Divine, present and receptive, not seeking, not looking for things for yourself. "Guide me", is a 'prayer' if you will, to That, in whatever form That takes for you.

 

There's a lot more to go into talking about this, but I want to come back to that book for a minute. She talks about the importance of creating ritual space, or however she phrases it. That cannot be stressed enough either. It's not just about sitting down and meditating, which of course if fine in moments here or there throughout the day in order to re-center oneself, but in your dedicated, set-aside meditation practice time itself. Have a space set aside, enter into that space, treat it as sacred, light candles, set up an altar, light incense, whatever is meaningful to you (be creative!), but do everything with intention, with dedication, with devotion. That action sets your intention, aligns to the work you're going to do today.

 

For me, this is where 2nd person has one of its strongest suits. Devotion. Devotion is a symbolic action of offering up yourself. It aligns the intention "purification", and moves your egoic self-seeking out of the way. You are now ready to learn. You are now open and ready to receive (no-expectations). You raise the energy in ritual form, you enter into the work and you move through meditation, and then you ground the work, taking what you have been exposed to and bringing it back into your whole being, body, mind, and spirit - aligned. One thing I'll share, which I very recently discovered within my own meditation practice, like within the last week, is that at the end of your practice, you take all of that energy you received and offer all of it back to the world. Take all of it, and send it out of yourself. Give it away completely. I will not tell you what happens. Just do it, without expectation towards yourself. Let you focus be wholly on the other, giving everything away.

 

So there is a brief discussion that we can go much deeper into. But I'll say in my practice I try to practice all three approaches, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person. I think that is what most traditions or lineages lack as they focus on only one or maybe two of those, but rarely all three to any depth. But we as humans are in fact all three in our relations to ourselves and the world. Why should our spiritual practice lack any then?

[Orbit]

I thought about this last night and I may have a good suggestion, which somewhat dovetails into Vacuum Flux's response above which is a good one. Find a substitute Face, a 'safe' one that is not laden with baggage for you. Hinduism has them aplenty! Plus they are incredibly beautiful and powerful in significance, like the Taras he just mentioned in the last post. My favorite is Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge, music, arts, wisdom, and nature.

I looked at Saraswati, and what a wonderful figure!: water (really important to me); music (also really important) knowledge, ditto. Always pictured as beautiful to symbolize the allure of knowledge; I'd take it a step further and say that knowledge is erotic. For that reason, as much as I love the Saraswati idea, I think I need an opposite-sex figure of contemplation. That seems odd on the face of it, I know. But what works, works. Suggestions welcome :-)

Challenges to this idea also welcome.

 

It's not an academic work, so don't worry.

Why would an academic be worried about an academic book? Color me puzzled.

 

For me, this is where 2nd person has one of its strongest suits. Devotion. Devotion is a symbolic action of offering up yourself. It aligns the intention "purification", and moves your egoic self-seeking out of the way. You are now ready to learn. You are now open and ready to receive (no-expectations). You raise the energy in ritual form, you enter into the work and you move through meditation, and then you ground the work, taking what you have been exposed to and bringing it back into your whole being, body, mind, and spirit - aligned. One thing I'll share, which I very recently discovered within my own meditation practice, like within the last week, is that at the end of your practice, you take all of that energy you received and offer all of it back to the world. Take all of it, and send it out of yourself. Give it away completely. I will not tell you what happens. Just do it, without expectation towards yourself. Let you focus be wholly on the other, giving everything away.

Thank you for that. We do raise energy, don't we? And what to do with it? Mystic, or should I say perennial undertones here..."give away all that you have"

[Deva]

My selection for opposite sex figure for contemplation:  Padmasambhava, who brought Buddhism to Tibet. This is an account of how he left the earth:

 

“Padmasambhava mounted a beam of sunlight and in the flicker of a moment soared away into the open sky. From the direction of the south west, he turned his face to look back, and sent forth a light ray of immeasurable loving kindness that established the disciples in the state of non-return. Accompanied by a cloud-like throng of dakinis, outer and inner, and amid the sound of the music they were offering, he went to the south-western continent of Ngayab.” But different people had different perceptions of his departure. Some saw him leaving in swirling clouds of coloured light, mounted on a divine horse; others saw him riding a lion. In some accounts, the twenty-five disciples in their meditation watched him receding in the sun’s rays, first the size of a raven, then a dove, a sparrow, a bee, and finally a tiny speck that disappeared from sight. They saw him alighting in the land of the rakshasas and teaching them the Dharma.

 

On the peak of the Copper Coloured Mountain, Padmasambhava liberated the king of the rakshasas, Raksha Thötreng, and assumed his form. Now he dwells in Zangdokpalri as a ‘vidyadhara of spontaneous presence’, the fourth vidyadhara level: “There,” writes Kyabjé Dudjom Rinpoche, “he manifested the inconceivable Palace of Lotus Light, and there he presides as king, with one of his emanations in each of the eight continents of the rakshasas, giving teachings like the Eight Great Methods of Attainment of the Kagyé, and protecting the people of this world of Jambudvipa from fears for their life. Even to this day, he reigns as the regent of Vajradhara, the ‘vidyadhara with spontaneous accomplishment of the ultimate path’; and thus he will remain, without ever moving, until the end of the universe.” 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Padmasambhava

 

"Jambudvipa" is another name for this earth

"rakshasas" are demons

a "vidyahara" is basically a buddha

 

Works for me. Very inspirational.   He is known to be able to appear in different forms. There is even a bluegrass song about him riding on his horse across the sky:

 

http://youtu.be/1V9ZcQ3-Egk?list=PL3337DF5C5B9881E7

 

His mantra is "Om a hung vajra guru pema siddi hung"

[Orbit]

Just a quick comment: as I consider choosing a contemplation figure, the injunction comes to me "thou shalt have no other gods before me". I'm a freaking atheist! How deep does this programming go?! Why is that still in my head? Am I better off just using the God concept, using the underlying symbol system already in place? Am I swimming against the tide? Oh hell, this is a pain. I just want to get on with it!

 

This frustrated interlude brought to you by the aftereffects of organized religion.

[Deva]

Just a quick comment: as I consider choosing a contemplation figure, the injunction comes to me "thou shalt have no other gods before me". I'm a freaking atheist! How deep does this programming go?! Why is that still in my head? Am I better off just using the God concept, using the underlying symbol system already in place? Am I swimming against the tide? Oh hell, this is a pain. I just want to get on with it!

 

This frustrated interlude brought to you by the aftereffects of organized religion.

 

The programming, from my experience, goes much deeper than I ever thought possible. It was at least 10 years before I could do a post like # 18 above, and, believe me, I had a lot of hesitation in posting it here at all.  However, everyone is different and I can only wish you well on your individual journey, Orbit.

[Brother Jeff]

I haven't honestly taken the time to read through the responses of others here thoroughly, but here are my thoughts. 

 

I was heavily involved in Charismatic Christianity for quite a few years. During the praise and worship services, which I LOVED, I frequently felt WRAPPED IN JOY!! I thought if God poured out the blessings any stronger, I would be raptured to Heaven right there on the spot! Glory! I also spoke in tongues, though I had doubts even then about the reality of that experience. I was secretly afraid it was just gibberish, and sure enough now I know that it was. But the experience of speaking in tongues made me feel what I took at the time as the presence of God and made me feel closer to him. Now that I am no longer a believer and I consider myself an atheist, those ecstatic and incredible religious emotional highs are a thing of the past. Now I feel at One with the Universe and totally at peace when I am out in the beauty of Alaska on a long hike in the wilderness. It's not emotional necessarily, but it's deeply meaningful.

 

I know you are not looking for religion-based meditation, but you still might want to check out Eknath Easwaran. He took the best from all of the major world religions and created a meditation technique that I really like. I'm not currently practicing it, but a couple of years ago or so, I really got into Eastern religion for a while and I really liked it. I ended up discontinuing it because ultimately I couldn't wrap my rational brain around a religious meditation experience. But that's just me. Lots of people love his meditation technique and his talks (excerpts of which are available on YouTube), and though it's not currently for me, I still enthusiastically recommend checking his stuff out. Here's just a sample for you from YouTube:

 

 

I still find a lot to like in Hinduism and Buddhism, though I am an atheist. Hope that helps. Glory!

[Antlerman]

I looked at Saraswati, and what a wonderful figure!: water (really important to me); music (also really important) knowledge, ditto. Always pictured as beautiful to symbolize the allure of knowledge; I'd take it a step further and say that knowledge is erotic. For that reason, as much as I love the Saraswati idea, I think I need an opposite-sex figure of contemplation. That seems odd on the face of it, I know. But what works, works. Suggestions welcome :-)

Challenges to this idea also welcome.

Yes indeed. The statue of Saraswati I have is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Saraswati-Hindu-Goddess-Knowledge-Music/dp/B0040U5876/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1412464677&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=saraswati She sits on my meditation altar.

 

For the masculine, and that's something I get so no apologies, you may consider the ever-classic dancing Shiva : http://www.amazon.com/Nataraja-Dancing-Statue-Bronze-Finished/dp/B00IYU5FZS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1412464782&sr=8-6&keywords=shiva+statue

 

Both of these are full of symbolism you should explore.

 

On the Buddhist side, White Tara is my favorite: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-White-Religious-Buddhism-Statue/dp/B003V0YIZY/ref=sr_1_2?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1412465114&sr=1-2&keywords=white+tara+statue

 

For the masculine, you could consider any of the Buddhas. Medicine Buddha is of course wonderful: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Healing-Medicine-Religious-Figurine/dp/B00IKKVOT8/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1412465498&sr=8-4&keywords=medicine+buddha+statue

 

As I said before, do what works for you. Listen to other suggestions, though I sure think Saraswati is wonderful. I often have mental images of being carried on a swan.

 

 

It's not an academic work, so don't worry.

Why would an academic be worried about an academic book? Color me puzzled.

 

I just thought you were more interested in mystical writings instead.

 

 

As a related aside, today I just added to my gong collection. Bought a really nice 12" chao gong to go with my others. I now have a total 7. It was a happy find that really fits nicely and widens the space. Very cool. I think you would love meditating to the sound environment I create for people with them and my singing bowls.

 

P.S. The one I would love to add to is this one, but I doubt I'll ever get it. Hard to say unless I actually got to play it in person if it really is what I think I'm hearing here. (Put some headphones on for this)

[Orbit]

Yes indeed. The statue of Saraswati I have is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Saraswati-Hindu-Goddess-Knowledge-Music/dp/B0040U5876/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1412464677&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=saraswati She sits on my meditation altar.

Thanks for the links. Those are very cool.

 

As a related aside, today I just added to my gong collection. Bought a really nice 12" chao gong to go with my others. I now have a total 7. It was a happy find that really fits nicely and widens the space. Very cool. I think you would love meditating to the sound environment I create for people with them and my singing bowls.

I'm sure I would love it, too! That's very cool that you do that.

Have you thought about recording your sessions and putting them on youtube?

[Antlerman]

I'm sure I would love it, too! That's very cool that you do that.

Have you thought about recording your sessions and putting them on youtube?

It's on my down the road purchase to get some decent microphones to record them. Going into a studio is a little challenging for something like this, as I'd want to do a lot of different recording sessions and put together something appropriate overall. It's easier to do that in my home if I had the gear.

 

I do have this little 'sound idea' I had I recorded as a mental note to myself with a few of my bowls and gongs as something I was going to play for a friends important rite of passage we were part of for him. It's a really crappy sound quality as it's on my cell phone with a 2 dollar pinhead microphone with crazy compression, but if you can forgive that you can sort of get a "feel" for some of what I do, though a steady rhythm like this is only small areas of the overall free-flowing fabric of what the whole thing is like.  It breaks away to less patterns and more like drops of rain patterning of a smooth still pond.  You kind of get some of that if you just listen to the whole thing with yourself focused inward.

 

Harry gongs.wav

 

I also just got one of these I found at an arts in the park thing a month ago.  I picked it up right away and was able to play it well enough to draw a small crowd (who actually applauded me, believe it or not!).  They guy sold like 5 of them while I was playing around with it.  I can do circular breathing like he does in the video, though I have a way to go to be a smooth as he is with the instrument.  I think it will fit nicely with the other meditative instruments I have.  What do you think?  

 

[Orbit]

 

I'm sure I would love it, too! That's very cool that you do that.

Have you thought about recording your sessions and putting them on youtube?

It's on my down the road purchase to get some decent microphones to record them. Going into a studio is a little challenging for something like this, as I'd want to do a lot of different recording sessions and put together something appropriate overall. It's easier to do that in my home if I had the gear.

 

I do have this little 'sound idea' I had I recorded as a mental note to myself with a few of my bowls and gongs as something I was going to play for a friends important rite of passage we were part of for him. It's a really crappy sound quality as it's on my cell phone with a 2 dollar pinhead microphone with crazy compression, but if you can forgive that you can sort of get a "feel" for some of what I do, though a steady rhythm like this is only small areas of the overall free-flowing fabric of what the whole thing is like. You kind of get it if you just listen to the whole thing with yourself focused inward.

 

Harry gongs.wav

 

Very Cool! It's actually pretty easy to do home recording. You just need a couple of good microphones and a computer/Audacity and you're set.

[Antlerman]

 

 

I'm sure I would love it, too! That's very cool that you do that.

Have you thought about recording your sessions and putting them on youtube?

It's on my down the road purchase to get some decent microphones to record them. Going into a studio is a little challenging for something like this, as I'd want to do a lot of different recording sessions and put together something appropriate overall. It's easier to do that in my home if I had the gear.

 

I do have this little 'sound idea' I had I recorded as a mental note to myself with a few of my bowls and gongs as something I was going to play for a friends important rite of passage we were part of for him. It's a really crappy sound quality as it's on my cell phone with a 2 dollar pinhead microphone with crazy compression, but if you can forgive that you can sort of get a "feel" for some of what I do, though a steady rhythm like this is only small areas of the overall free-flowing fabric of what the whole thing is like. You kind of get it if you just listen to the whole thing with yourself focused inward.

 

Harry gongs.wav

 

Very Cool! It's actually pretty easy to do home recording. You just need a couple of good microphones and a computer/Audacity and you're set.

 

Well, yes, I have Cakewalk for my keyboards that has sound recording, plus a 12 channel mixer, but its the "good microphones" part that the down the road purchase.  I expect probably around $1200 for a couple decent mics, at least.  

 

Did you see the other video I added to the above post?

 

Speaking of which, I have a couple synths I could layer in with this when I get it all set up again.  Hmmm... ideas...