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Goodbye Jesus

My Soul And I


foak

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There is no evidence for the existence of the Soul for those who have lost the ability to hear it's voice.

 

I'm Sorry, there is nothing i can do to change that.

The evidence is not something seen but experienced.

 

Gospel of Thomas

saying 3

 

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

 

 

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i want to apologize for being arrogant and for blaming others for my own problems.

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Skeptic:

 

noun

1.
a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2.
a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.
3.
a person who doubts the truth of a religion, especially Christianity, or of important elements of it.
4.
(initial capital letter) Philosophy.
  1. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
  2. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skeptic

 

 

Skeptics are doubters.

That leaves no room for learning.

It seems that few people here are open to learning anything, since everyone is either a self described skeptic or listening to one, soon to become one themselves.

 

I would say that puts this board in a self imposed limbo.

 

My opinion of course

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The truth is found inside of us.

When you can verify that for yourself you won't need verification of what the truth is anymore.

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The evidence is not something seen but experienced.

 

Gospel of Thomas

saying 3

 

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

 

I love that logion in the so-called "Gnostic" Gospel of Thomas. There are many in Thomas which fit the mystical sayings of other traditions worldwide. The other in Thomas I love is logion 70, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you." Very much the touching on same thing.

 

As far as the soul goes, I find myself in agreement when understood a certain way. I do not view the 'soul' as any actual object one can examine outside the subject, but rather as a metaphor to describe something real about our own self, our own being. It's the same as the metaphor "me" that points to things like our body, our personality, our world of friends and jobs and likes and dislikes, and all those things we collectively gather together and call our self. "Me" is a metaphor. Soul is the same, but it is a different sort of 'me' that is not all these objects I mentioned, but the "essence" of self, while self is still a unique individual, a subjective reality. One cannot find 'evidence' for "me" either, if you stop to think about it. But no one questions the existence of their 'me' because they identify with and interact with it daily.

 

I posted this recently in the Transcending Theism thread a little while ago speaking about the stages of meditation one goes through toward the full Self realization:

 

The transition to this, through abandoning all fear, receptivity through calm and open intentionality, willing to die completely to the egoic-self, to leave behind all clingings to the things of your childhood, brings you up into an emerging knowledge of your true Identity, your Authentic self.  You spend time in that space, as that body in a growing self knowledge just before that Light and in deep relations of knowledge "Face to Face", on that hyphen mark.  You come to know who you are as you experience mind and spirit and body in this.  I would rightly call this the "Soul".  It is the culmination of you separate identity before complete Oneness, before united with and as That which you had previously beheld as Other.  It is to me highly important we know ourselves, know our soul as it were, in order to be fully integrated on the other side of dissolution into Emptiness and emergence on the other side in nonduality where there is "not one, not two".

Do you feel this comes to speak about what you are trying to say? It is really pointless to argue whether or not a 'soul' exists, since it's the same thing as a 'me'. It's something you see, or don't see. Some people do not know their own egoic self either, constantly trying to find themselves in the world off of others. But as you first come to know and develop a healthy egoic self, and then you go further and look inward and move beyond the egoic 'me', you come to know you are not all of those things you previously identified yourself as. Who then is looking? This is just greater self-knowledge, the self beyond ego and all other identification with phenomena before Awakening.

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Do you feel this comes to speak about what you are trying to say? It is really pointless to argue whether or not a 'soul' exists, since it's the same thing as a 'me'. It's something you see, or don't see. Some people do not know their own egoic me either.

 

yes thank you.

At least we have a good starting point.

 

I expected the worst when i saw that you had posted here, i'm sorry

 

Now i can bring my gift to the alter.

 

This is the sticking point i'm afraid.

Everyone wants evidence that i can't give them.

 

So i tell people that to get the evidence they have to learn to know themselves.

For this i get mostly misunderstanding and heated conversations.

Often people get hurt.

It's very frustrating.

 

I really don't want to cause trouble here.

I just want to share what i know and talk about it with someone who knows in the same way i do.

 

I am indeed an ex-c.

Have been for a long time.

That does not mean i abandoned the truth.

It means that i think christianity abandoned the truth.

so i thought i might find a few like myself here who are not looking to abandon the truth just the silly crap that christians hand out as truth.

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I find it interesting that some of the NDE (near death experience) accounts say that they found their religion to be lacking after their experience of being dead.

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This is the sticking point i'm afraid.

Everyone wants evidence that i can't give them.

How do you give evidence for the taste of an apple? But then there is the question why do you feel you need to? You're not arguing for objective realities in a scientific sense, but rather lived realities. And how does anyone have those except by their own living?

 

So i tell people that to get the evidence they have to learn to know themselves.

For this i get mostly misunderstanding and heated conversations.

Often people get hurt.

It's very frustrating.

Though what you say is factually true, people can hear that as criticism of themselves. I can be as guilty of that as anyone else. I guess I strive to avoid that or keep it simple if someone raises objection to what they believe they are hearing (soul has this mythic connotation to many as some supernatural thing that doesn't fit a scientific reality). I think saying it's a metaphor is safe, and actually quite accurate. Or they simply aren't interested in that exploration as you are. They don't need to be. And hopefully they can respect your interest in it for yourself. If not, then that is their insecurities. But for those that go the path of spiritual pursuit to try to 'prove it' to them, might be coming from insecurities too. Everyone wants some sort of validation from others.

 

I really don't want to cause trouble here.

I just want to share what i know and talk about it with someone who knows in the same way i do.

This is a good forum here for discussions about things of a spiritual nature.

 

I am indeed an ex-c.

Have been for a long time.

That does not mean i abandoned the truth.

I think a better way to say that might be you have not abandoned seeking to expand your understanding of truth. You're not happy in just finding something new to believe in, but want to keep growing in these area of your self-interest. Ditto.

 

It means that i think christianity abandoned the truth.

I think everyone is on their path to find truth and meaning, including them. Even if they are stuck because of their worship of external beliefs over the discovery of truth from within. It's a fearful religion, stuck in a perpetual separation from themselves. Not in all cases, not in all individuals, but as a system it makes it harder for those within it to grow beyond itself.

 

so i thought i might find a few like myself here who are not looking to abandon the truth just the silly crap that christians hand out as truth.

I don't think I'd say someone is abandoning truth because they are focused in a particular area at that particular time for themselves. I personally am used the trap of assuming because I have come to this particular understanding for myself now, that that means if I just explain it just right to someone else, they'll get it just like I did!! smile.png It simply does not happen like that. If you think about it, how many times did you hear what you now get, but didn't get it then? You simply were not in a place where it was important to you. There's no value judgement of that. You were exactly where you needed to be, just as you are where you need to be now. I bet I could say some things to you you might not be able to hear now. wink.png But if it's right for you at another point, you'd 'get it'. That's just kind of how it works.
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I find it interesting that some of the NDE (near death experience) accounts say that they found their religion to be lacking after their experience of being dead.

Any altered state of consciousness will do that! smile.png
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i understand all of those things about others being at different levels of understanding.

 that is life like you said.

I simply have trouble coping with the consequences of my interacting with other people that don't understand the things i say.

It is actually another good reason for me to be here.

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I simply have trouble coping with the consequences of my interacting with other people that don't understand the things i say.

It is actually another good reason for me to be here.

Once upon a time I used to thrive in debating others to make a case for my point of view as it helped me sharpen my own thoughts. It had its purpose, but I have come to find that draining and distracting these days and really misses the point for myself. It's more about finding compassion within myself, not intellectually nailing a discussion. The former is a battle within yourself, and more valuable in the end to everyone.
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I simply have trouble coping with the consequences of my interacting with other people that don't understand the things i say.

It is actually another good reason for me to be here.

Once upon a time I used to thrive in debating others to make a case for my point of view as it helped me sharpen my own thoughts. It had its purpose, but I have come to find that draining and distracting these days and really misses the point for myself. It's more about finding compassion within myself, not intellectually nailing a discussion. The former is a battle within yourself, and more valuable in the end to everyone.

 

foak, there may be something useful for you to know about this site to put things in perspective. It is full of people trying to leave xtianity behind, and for most of them, trying to leave all forms of theism behind. When you start talking about religious concepts around them, they are going to react from that headspace. Don't take it personally. This forum is the designated safe space for talking about spirituality or alternative forms of theism. Welcome!

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I'm projecting my internal struggle onto others.

What a horrible thing to do.

 

It is the same thing as what christians do.

They look outside themselves for salvation.

Not realizing that the real struggle and real salvation are to be won and obtained within.

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I'm projecting my internal struggle onto others.

What a horrible thing to do.

 

It is the same thing as what christians do.

It's the same thing most humans do.

 

They look outside themselves for salvation.

It's also the same thing most humans do.

 

Not realizing that the real struggle and real salvation are to be won and obtained within.

It's the one thing most humans avoid, by projecting themselves onto others, and looking to be told what truth is by external authorities.
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I'm projecting my internal struggle onto others.

What a horrible thing to do.

 

It is the same thing as what christians do.

They look outside themselves for salvation.

Not realizing that the real struggle and real salvation are to be won and obtained within.

No point beating yourself up about it. The thing is to move forward.

 

 

Plus upvote to AM (dang this no upvote the mods thing)

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The Gospel of the Nazirenes:

chapter 90

 

"The One truth has many sides, and one sees one side only, another, and some see more than others, according as it is given to them.  Behold this crystal; how the one light is manifest in twelve faces, yea four times twelve, and each face reflects one ray of light, and one regards one face, and another, another, but it is the one crystal, and the one light that shines in all.  Behold again, When one climbs a mountain and attaining one height, he says, this is the top of the mountain, let us reach it, and when they have reached that height, lo, they see another beyond it until they come to that height from which no other height is to be seen, if so be they can attain it.  So it is with truth. I am the truth and the way and the life, and have given to you the truth which I have received from above. And that which is seen and received by one, is not seen and received by another. That which appears true to some, seems not true to others. They who are in the valley don't see what they who are on the hill top see.  But to each, it is the truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher truth shall be revealed to the same; and to the soul which receives higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore don't condemn others, that you not be condemned."   

 

i am guilty of judging others.

Im sorry

It is best if i am to keep posting here that i remain on this forum rather than be in with the general  population.

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  • Moderator

 

The Gospel of the Nazirenes:

chapter 90

 

"The One truth has many sides, and one sees one side only, another, and some see more than others, according as it is given to them.  Behold this crystal; how the one light is manifest in twelve faces, yea four times twelve, and each face reflects one ray of light, and one regards one face, and another, another, but it is the one crystal, and the one light that shines in all.  Behold again, When one climbs a mountain and attaining one height, he says, this is the top of the mountain, let us reach it, and when they have reached that height, lo, they see another beyond it until they come to that height from which no other height is to be seen, if so be they can attain it.  So it is with truth. I am the truth and the way and the life, and have given to you the truth which I have received from above. And that which is seen and received by one, is not seen and received by another. That which appears true to some, seems not true to others. They who are in the valley don't see what they who are on the hill top see.  But to each, it is the truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher truth shall be revealed to the same; and to the soul which receives higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore don't condemn others, that you not be condemned."   

 

i am guilty of judging others.

Im sorry

It is best if i am to keep posting here that i remain on this forum rather than be in with the general  population.

 

 

I also agree that this is a safer place for you to post foak. Good luck and have fun.....This forum is protected so you may discuss all kinds of spiritual talk. 

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i appreciate what you are saying .

Thank you.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Foak,

 

Perhaps you shouldn't worry about whether or not you judge other people. After all, ideas are there to be judged. So what? You expand everyone else's horizons around you, those that think about things anyway. I don't believe in gods, although sometimes I think it would be nice if there was a goddess, but I know I'm imagining things. However, consider the following: You, Orbit, and Antlerman have successfully provided definition for the word 'soul'. This is information you already had. But not so, for the rest of us. I personally can interpret it in a naturalistic context, if a soul is a 'me', an identity, well, I can now understand it.

Also, just because you get push-back from some people doesn't mean you shouldn't post it. One day, someone might push back or call your idea ridiculous, but due to a sequence of events, that person later on will adopt what you said as part of their thinking. Even if they never fully adopt it all, what you said will have influenced them. Again, taking a totally naturalistic view of things, even our bodies are not static; most of what we're made of has been regenerated over a lifetime. So, I think also, is our identity, our 'me', our 'soul' if you will. But changes that affect that soul are in the world of ideas, and yes, as you said, experiences. Mystical, for those who can or know how, and natural for all of us. And, as humans, the changes happen in the realm of ideas. None of us are an island unto ourselves.

So I, a rationalist atheist, a humanist who is in awe of our universe and the wonder of nature itself, have been left with food for thought by you, Antlerman, Orbit and others on this board. Perhaps it's like the weak plant pushing her way through the soil, grain by grain, reaching up to the open air. There is push-back from the soil, but the plant keeps on stretching upward. That is why I read threads on this site, and this board in particular, which come from a totally different place than I do.

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This is the sticking point i'm afraid.

Everyone wants evidence that i can't give them.

How do you give evidence for the taste of an apple? But then there is the question why do you feel you need to? You're not arguing for objective realities in a scientific sense, but rather lived realities. And how does anyone have those except by their own living?

I don't; know what a soul is, but lately I've been thinking that maybe there's much more going in a person than just an animal that's born and dies.  And in the world / universe as well.   Conceptual understandings just come to me, which seem right on deep level.  It just seems like there's a lot more going on to life than we think in our Western understanding of things.  

 

If we had a soul, what significance does it have?  I hear different things in science and spirituality that lead me to believe there's some sort of partnership between humans and the universe where we need each other.   I don't understand it, but I guess it's possible since we are children of the universe. From hearing other things in spirituality, it seems possible that we may be much greater than we imagine.  Maybe that ties into a soul somehow.

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This is the sticking point i'm afraid.

Everyone wants evidence that i can't give them.

How do you give evidence for the taste of an apple? But then there is the question why do you feel you need to? You're not arguing for objective realities in a scientific sense, but rather lived realities. And how does anyone have those except by their own living?

I don't; know what a soul is, but lately I've been thinking that maybe there's much more going in a person than just an animal that's born and dies.  And in the world / universe as well.   Conceptual understandings just come to me, which seem right on deep level.  It just seems like there's a lot more going on to life than we think in our Western understanding of things.  

 

If we had a soul, what significance does it have?  I hear different things in science and spirituality that lead me to believe there's some sort of partnership between humans and the universe where we need each other.   I don't understand it, but I guess it's possible since we are children of the universe. From hearing other things in spirituality, it seems possible that we may be much greater than we imagine.  Maybe that ties into a soul somehow.

 

 

I have a feeling - just a feeling, nothing more substantial than a feeling - that the reality of what we are and of how we fit into this cosmos would, if understood, be found to be both far simpler and far more profound than any of us imagine.

 

Whether I'll ever reach a conclusion on this that is both simple and profound is another matter...

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I have a feeling - just a feeling, nothing more substantial than a feeling - that the reality of what we are and of how we fit into this cosmos would, if understood, be found to be both far simpler and far more profound than any of us imagine.

 

Whether I'll ever reach a conclusion on this that is both simple and profound is another matter...

 

Hi Ellinas! I get that feeling too.  I've been reading about and watching movies on an indigenous tribe called the Kogi, the only surviving Pre-Columbian tribe  who have remained the same since then... and when I do I really get that feeling you're talking about.  

 

It's weird that some modern environmental scientists are interested in what they're saying to us, and one (head of environmental science at Oxford) said they understand things we don't about the way the earth works and we should listen. Someone else said they know who they are and why they're here.  The Kogi say we don't understand because we mentalize everything, and that our inventions have been created out of sync with the earth spirit, and we have lost touch with it.  I don't know if any of it is true, but I get a feeling, just a feeling, there's something to it.

 

 

“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.” - A. Einstein 

 

Nature is the source of all true knowledge. She has her own logic, her own laws, she has no effect without cause nor invention without necessity.

Leonardo da Vinci

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