mymistake Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 This came up recently in the "Why The Negative Attitude Toward God?" thread but I believe it is an important issue that deserves it's very own thread. The existence of God is something that can be proven to themselves by anyone who wants to know the truth bad enough. There is a great deal of evidence and all of it points to one answer. It is human nature to create fictional gods. saying there is no need for a creator is like saying there is no need for parents life doesn't work that way. you can't get something from nothing. We do not know that there ever was a "nothing". We have no reason to believe there ever was a nothing. However we also do not know that you can't get something from nothing. Experts in QM suggest that something can come from nothing. Now I don't know enough about QM to add or detract to any of that but I do know this. Blaming God does not solve the problem of existence. If God created our universe then God can exist without being created so things can exist without being created. We have no reason to think that these uncreated things are a being or intelligent so we have no justification to make that assumption. If uncreated things cannot exist then God must have been created or else not exist. That would also imply that there has always been something. The past would be infinite and always something was there. Either way there is no requirement for God in this explanation. It makes far more sense without God: If something can arise from nothing then creation is a natural process. An uncreated thing might have any nature so don't assume it is God. Without uncreated things or something arising from nothing there must have never been a "nothing". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Experts in QM suggest that something can come from nothing. When I went to Alexander Vilenkin's lecture on Cosmic Inflation some months ago, during the Q&A he said that by "nothing," physicists mean a state in which there is no matter. They can still ascribe properties to that state. As to what happened "before" cosmic inflation, he said there is no "before" and there's no answer to “What happened before inflation?” He said the beginning may have been spontaneous, from "nothing" as properly defined. Most probable initial state: a tiny, closed universe filled with a high-energy false vacuum. In such a closed universe, numbers will be zero. I didn't understand this, but it sounded as though there are physicists who do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Having just read Lawrence Krauss' "A Universe from Nothing" I'm convinced the universe didn't need a creator. If you don't want to read the book, you can search youtube for lectures based on the book. Simply put, according to the laws of physics, something can come from nothing, as a result of purely natural processes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Ficino provided us with some great material on this topic, not so long ago. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/63014-vilenkin-on-cosmic-inflation-and-multiverse/?hl=mithani#entry960252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 lol there is nothing but the same old rhetoric here. the evidence that God exists is inside of you and outside of you. if you are not able to understand that then there is nothing else i could possibly say to help you understand. sorry no need to come here and have an argument over a misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 12, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 12, 2014 lol there is nothing but the same old rhetoric here. the evidence that God exists is inside of you and outside of you. if you are not able to understand that then there is nothing else i could possibly say to help you understand. sorry no need to come here and have an argument over a misunderstanding. foak, I'm always 'open' when it comes to any claim that god exists. But the thing that irritates me the most is that no one will try to show us where this god is. You say it is inside and outside of us? Please explain this to me? I need it to be 'believable', so I would love to have evidence because I don't follow any claims today by 'faith'. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 lol there is nothing but the same old rhetoric here. the evidence that God exists is inside of you and outside of you. if you are not able to understand that then there is nothing else i could possibly say to help you understand. sorry no need to come here and have an argument over a misunderstanding. That does not help those who did not start off in agreement with you. There are all sorts of perspectives in this world. Is everyone else out of luck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you say you need it to be believable. I don't know what will do that for you. I can't produce a God for you. God is already showing proof and it is being ignored or outright denied. If you don't see it then what else can i do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. God is and always will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 lol there is nothing but the same old rhetoric here. the evidence that God exists is inside of you and outside of you. if you are not able to understand that then there is nothing else i could possibly say to help you understand. sorry no need to come here and have an argument over a misunderstanding. Until you're willing to lay out a reasoned argument this isn't going anywhere. All you do is tell us we don't understand. So why not explain it to us? Otherwise why are you even posting? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Warning - in the Colosseum all posts should remain strictly on topic. Please observe this rule and remain civil to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 I can't produce a God for you. God is already showing proof and it is being ignored or outright denied. These two statements contradict each other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 lol there is nothing but the same old rhetoric here. the evidence that God exists is inside of you and outside of you. if you are not able to understand that then there is nothing else i could possibly say to help you understand. sorry no need to come here and have an argument over a misunderstanding. That does not help those who did not start off in agreement with you. There are all sorts of perspectives in this world. Is everyone else out of luck? i'm telling you everything you need to know. The evidence is inside you and outside you. Yes there are many perspectives in the world. Many with little or no depth to them. No perspective is complete, there is need for improvement for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. God is and always will be The universe is, and always will be. What's the difference between these two statements? *edited in response to Deva's post* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I can't produce a God for you. God is already showing proof and it is being ignored or outright denied. These two statements contradict each other. in your own mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. God is and always will be The universe is, and always will be. What's the difference between these two statements? *edited in response to Deva's post* nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 12, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 12, 2014 you say you need it to be believable. I don't know what will do that for you. I can't produce a God for you. God is already showing proof and it is being ignored or outright denied. If you don't see it then what else can i do? You understand god? I'm not a stupid woman. So tell me a bit about this god? What do you know that I don't? At least give us the courtesy of some kind of explanation. Stop the silly word salad which makes no sense. Word salad is used to throw people off their direct questions. C'mon, give it a try for me? I want to know your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 i'm telling you everything you need to know. And I'm telling you, this is utter nonsense. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Mr logic? so anyone can call me what they want but when i call someone an asshole i get a warning. Nice now someone will come along and say i am whining cause i expect the rules to be enforced for everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. God is and always will be The universe is, and always will be. What's the difference between these two statements? *edited in response to Deva's post* nothing Right. So, you agree you've simply made an empty and unsupported claim then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 I can't produce a God for you. God is already showing proof and it is being ignored or outright denied. These two statements contradict each other. in your own mind. Rather in logic. 1 I cannot produce evidence for X 2 There is plenty of evidence for X When X = dogs then statement 1 is wrong. When X = Jedi Knights then statement 2 is wrong. When X = doctors 1 is wrong. When X = Invisible Pink Unicorns 2 is wrong. When X is God which statement is wrong? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 This is going nowhere fast. Please lay out a cogent argument and we will respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 i'm telling you everything you need to know. And I'm telling you, this is utter nonsense. Try again. i'm telling you i'm done trying with you you are going on ignore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foak Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 you can't get something from nothing. 'cept god of course, he can come from nothing. I need some sunscreen for the stupid. God is and always will be The universe is, and always will be. What's the difference between these two statements? *edited in response to Deva's post* nothing Right. So, you agree you've simply made an empty and unsupported claim then? no i do not agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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