Deconversion Of Abraham Piper (Son Of John Piper) . . . And Subsequent Reconversion

[Llwellyn]

In the spirit of the thread about the son of evangelist Tony Campolo, here is a thread about the son of evangelist John Piper.  The difference is that Abraham Piper first deconverted and then later reconverted.  It shouldn't be a surprise that he is on the payroll of his father's ministry, "Desiring God."  This is how the story begins in the Christian echo-chamber:  "At first I pretended that my reasoning was high-minded and philosophical. But really I just wanted to drink gallons of cheap sangria and sleep around."

 

http://billygraham.org/decision-magazine/september-2007/let-them-come-home/

 

[Bhim]

Very interesting.  Back when I was a Christian, I was an ardent disciple of John Piper, and would attend his church whenever I was in downtown Minneapolis (though he would strongly object to my referring to Bethlehem Baptist as "his" church).  I always thought of Piper's life as a living testimony to the truth of the gospel, and even today find it difficult to entirely de-legitimize his religious experience, even though I find the root of his beliefs to be evil.  I wonder if his testimony would be as effective if his son had never returned to evangelical Christianity.

[rach]

My guess is that Abraham will be confused and bounce back and forth between religion and deconversion all his life.  That's how its been for me, adopted daughter of extremely religious parents.  Even when you want to break free of it forever, you are in an oppressive environment that makes it almost impossible.  Imagine if you are locked in a room and every time you turn on the tv or radio, you are bombarded with advertisements to go to a certain restaurant.  There are constant images of the food and testimonials of people who love the food.  There is every kind of attempt made to get you in that restaurant.  Even if you have decided never to eat there again because it's not healthy for you and you prefer something else, you are likely to get sucked into that place from time to time due to mind-harassment.  Our parents are like the constant tv infomercial playing for their religion. 

 

I used to believe John Piper was a super-saint and one of the wisest men alive that knew God better than anybody.  Finally the rose coloured glasses fell off and I realized John Piper is just a man and no closer to God, for all his efforts, than anybody else.  John Piper has some seriously warped views about life, the same that my adoptive parents have, that God has every right to inflict tragedy on anybody for any reason at any time if its part of his "perfect plan" and God can never be faulted for doing so.  I know John must think he is doing tremendous good in the world by spilling out all this information about God.  But really what good is that really doing?  The ones really doing the good are the ones making life nicer.  Had a construction crew at my home recently.  Realized they did more good for me than any Christian preacher ever has. 

[♦ ficino ♦]

But really I just wanted to drink gallons of cheap sangria and sleep around."[/size]

That's what he thought being out of the church allowed him to drink? Holy fuck. How sad.

[Llwellyn]

When he says that he "wanted" to sleep around, I'm betting that in his rumspringa he didn't actually have sex with very many (or any) people at all.  If you've grown up in that environment, you tend not to have the social, verbal, and emotional skill necessary to debauch yourself.

[Darklady]

what a frigging sad state of affairs

[bornagainathiest]

I wonder how the Pipers read Hebrews 6 : 4 - 8, then?

[TrueFreedom]

I wonder how the Pipers read Hebrews 6 : 4 - 8, then?

I used to interpret it as referring to Christians returning to Judaism and The Law.

[bornagainathiest]

Deleted post.

[bornagainathiest]

Ok TF, I get you.  Like the Galatians.

 

But if that Hebrews passage refers only to the Jews who turn away from Christ and return to the law of Moses, where does this leave the Gentiles?

 

Can a Gentile accept Christ, then turn away from him and then return?

[TrueFreedom]

You can find a theology to support any scenario.  An Armenian can come and go of his own accord.  A Calvinist can appear to come and go as part of God's perfect plan.  I don't have chapter and verse handy, but I believe that we can identify at least two forms of apostasy in the bible.  One involves abandoning sound doctrine, the other rejecting Christ.  Those who abandon Paul's teachings are admonished to return to it.  Those who reject Christ's salvation are said to have never been true believers to begin with.  A true believer cannot possibly reject Christ.  This is why so many Christians cannot accept that we were ever true believers. Scripturally, imo, Abraham Piper never deconverted, he back-slid.

[bornagainathiest]

Ah... ok, then.

 

'nuff said.

 

Thanks.

[Llwellyn]

He forges the chains that bind him.  He says that "high-minded and philosophical reasoning" is really not a basis for dismissing the Christian-Meme.  It is also a dishonest lie for those ex-christians (like us) who would assert it.  He also says that the only (illigitimate) basis for deconversion would be a desire to be what he calls vicious (drinking alcohol and copulating).  He also neutralizes the keys to his escape:  high-minded reasoning and a willingness to obey the law of human nature is the reason why the Christian Meme should be purged from a human.  In one clash of his hammer, the last links in his fetters are closed.

 

Christianity as a virus employs the ingenuity of a human to be the engine of its evolution.  I just watched "God's Not Dead" and heard a line in that apologetic film which alludes to the theory (from Dawkins and Dennett) that Christianity is a "Mind Virus."  Again, I am amazed at the ability of the Virus to put up a defense of itself, even to the point of admitting, full-on, its nature, in order to ensure that the meme-theory of Christianity first is heard from the Christian apologist (and is thereby neutralized) instead of the atheist.  The evolution of the meme is not "random mutation and natural selection" but instead "human-guided modification, and artificial selection."

 

(Yeah, I'm over-thinking things.   

 

[ExCBooster]

You may be over-thinking things, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting. Processes like natural selection work on cultural systems, and other things, too. No religion would grow and survive, if it didn't have something to reinforce the community and believers, and a very robust system of control (self-defence). They even use natural selection algorithms in computer programming: randomly generated code is passed through a series of filters, which weed out the ones that don't work, and new code is generated from the ones that pass, until you get a workable program.

 

There's a natural selection algorithm music generator! Go! Play! Listen to evolutionary music! ...And that's why a scientific theory is powerful: it can be used to predict results from circumstances, and used like a tool to shape your world.

[Newlife]

WOW! Romans never had that affect on me. I would agree that this was, as previously mentioned, probably a case of back sliding rather than a de-conversion.

[amateur]

Ok.  He quit being a xian because he wanted to drink sangria and sleep around.  He rebecame a xian because he drank a beer while reading Romans.

 

I have read much more compelling stories on this site, in people's extimonies.  I have read of people begging and pleading with an invisible, incommunicative god to please let them know that he exists, because they are having serious doubts that are about to change their lives.  People who have sometimes spent years trying to reprove the bible and xianity to themselves, only to come up with dead ends.

 

For god's sake, if you want to drink sangria and sleep around while you're young, go for it!  Just cut out your fucking drama queen bullshit!  

 

And his suggestion to e-mail happy bible quotes and anecdotes to their back-slidden children is nothing but sad.  Those e-mails and facebook posts do nothing but repulse people.

[Bhim]

The funny thing about the sangria comment is that I never was much of a drinker until after becoming a Christian.  I never drank underage (I was 19 when I converted), and even upon turning 21 I had a couple of beers, a shot here and there of vodka, and was pretty much done.  After I started grad school and met other Calvinists of an intellectual bent, we regularly drank during our Bible studies, and went to the local pub for fellowship.  We actually had our church officially recognize our small group and advertise us as meeting at a bar once a week.  I forget to whom this quote is attributed (probably someone in the Mark Driscoll circle).  But I have heard it said that you can't be a "New Calvinist" without enjoying a mug of dark beer.