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Goodbye Jesus

Is It Okay For Atheists To Infiltrate Churches?


BoldIrishLad

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With a religion that says love all people as you love yourself including love your enemies, and do not judge others lest you be judged , and the hatred Jesus had for the Religious hierarchy of the time, there is so much room to liberalize the Church and make it less bigoted and ignorant.

 

The feminist movement has gained much momentum and success in making the Church less chauvinistic.  Many Churches accept homosexuals and gay marriage. (Jesus never preached against homosexuality).

 

Churches have changed their stances on abortion and contraception. Atheists can achieve a lot by knowing the Bible.  Maybe they can even take it a step further and be undercover Christians to have more influence.  Wolves in sheeps clothing as it were lol!

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Not a bad thought, but I do not like the idea of being dishonest in order further our "agenda" as it were.

 

Here's one thing that you need to remember.  Believers hear all sorts of lies and misconceptions about nonbelievers at their churches.  I remember this clearly from my many years of church attendence.  Doing something like this would be living up to their false expectations and would provide reinforcement for all of their other terrible ideas about us.

 

The orginization as it is right now is relatively unassailable.  With the exception of bringing legal action against them if they attempt to violate church/state seperation, the orginization will stand in the face of whatever we do.  The best way forward is get involved with believers on a personal level.  Your family, friends and aquaintences that are believers.  Show them that you are a good person, your disbelief doesn't cause you to be the horrible and immoral creature that they would expect a nonbeliever to be.

 

Like I said, it is a fun idea to think about.  I just think that there are too many downsides to it.  Believers already are often highly prejudiced against atheists, let's not give them actual instances to reinforce their bad ideas.  On the other hand, going to church and being honest, letting them know that you are an atheist and are there to learn would get better results.  Many churches would welcome you as a potential convert and for a time at least they would be more than willing to discuss all of the doctrines and dogma of their particular denomination.

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Not a bad thought, but I do not like the idea of being dishonest in order further our "agenda" as it were.

 

Here's one thing that you need to remember.  Believers hear all sorts of lies and misconceptions about nonbelievers at their churches.  I remember this clearly from my many years of church attendence.  Doing something like this would be living up to their false expectations and would provide reinforcement for all of their other terrible ideas about us.

 

The orginization as it is right now is relatively unassailable.  With the exception of bringing legal action against them if they attempt to violate church/state seperation, the orginization will stand in the face of whatever we do.  The best way forward is get involved with believers on a personal level.  Your family, friends and aquaintences that are believers.  Show them that you are a good person, your disbelief doesn't cause you to be the horrible and immoral creature that they would expect a nonbeliever to be.

 

Like I said, it is a fun idea to think about.  I just think that there are too many downsides to it.  Believers already are often highly prejudiced against atheists, let's not give them actual instances to reinforce their bad ideas.  On the other hand, going to church and being honest, letting them know that you are an atheist and are there to learn would get better results.  Many churches would welcome you as a potential convert and for a time at least they would be more than willing to discuss all of the doctrines and dogma of their particular denomination.

This X a trillion!!

 

Remember Paul said, to the Jews I became a Jew, to the pagans I became a pagan, to those under the law I became as one under the law.... I have become all things to all men that I may win them all. Sometimes to defeat your enemy you have to become your enemy.

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The best thing for atheists to do is to pretend to be Christians so that they can become pastors, start a ministry, and then get lots of funding by selling Christianity to people. There is certainly money to be made. zDuivel7.gif

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The best thing for atheists to do is to pretend to be Christians so that they can become pastors, start a ministry, and then get lots of funding by selling Christianity to people. There is certainly money to be made. :Duivel7:

Ted Fundy! Har har har! :lol:

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My hat goes off to the liberal Christians that did away with medieval superstition, fanaticism, and moral rigorism.

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Honestly, two wrongs don't make a right. How would we feel if some cowardly xian hides himself as an atheist (a liar) and preach to atheist groups why Christianity, even though God doesn't exist, is the best influence we've ever had in history of man and why we should learn how to live from the Bible?

 

Exactly, we wouldn't like it, and we would tell him how he sinned according to his beliefs for the sake of his beliefs.

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This topic does not belong in the Christian Theological Issues forum, si I moved it to Ex-Christian Life.

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I guess some atheists are working hard to rid skociety of medieval superstition, fanaticism, and moral rigorism. Yeah, it would be a good idea to not get involved in this way but you could help people find freedom if you did.

 

Honestly, two wrongs don't make a right. How would we feel if some cowardly xian hides himself as an atheist (a liar) and preach to atheist groups why Christianity, even though God doesn't exist, is the best influence we've ever had in history of man and why we should learn how to live from the Bible?

 

Exactly, we wouldn't like it, and we would tell him how he sinned according to his beliefs for the sake of his beliefs.

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I think the best way to help xians realise they are prostrating themselves before an immoral imaginary friend is one on one conversations with nonbelievers, especially ex-christians from among their family and friends.  Also websites like this one provide a secret information source for when they start questioning their beliefs.

 

A book you may find helpful for learning how to have such conversations is A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian.  Highly recommended:

http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Creating-Atheists-Peter-Boghossian/dp/1939578094

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Yeah the reason I bring it up is that thousands of atheists, many of them communists infiltrated the priesthood to water down and revolutionize the church into something less severe and threatening. Some of these people became bishops whom priests had to be obedient to, and who had control over who came into the Seminaries and were ordained.

 

They took away the faculties of the ultra conservative fanatics and superstitious mental cases. They would not allow them into the Seminaries and if some happened to slip by, chances are they wouldn't make it to ordination.

 

Is it ok to combat religious fanaticism in such a way? Even if it is not morally sound, wouldn't it be better for society?

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Yeah the reason I bring it up is that thousands of atheists, many of them communists infiltrated the priesthood to water down and revolutionize the church into something less severe and threatening. Some of these people became bishops whom priests had to be obedient to, and who had control over who came into the Seminaries and were ordained.

 

They took away the faculties of the ultra conservative fanatics and superstitious mental cases. They would not allow them into the Seminaries and if some happened to slip by, chances are they wouldn't make it to ordination.

 

Is it ok to combat religious fanaticism in such a way? Even if it is not morally sound, wouldn't it be better for society?

I dunno, it seems to me like those sort of priests and theologians are still rampant in the RCC.  *shrugs*

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The best thing for atheists to do is to pretend to be Christians so that they can become pastors, start a ministry, and then get lots of funding by selling Christianity to people. There is certainly money to be made. zDuivel7.gif

 

Most televangelists probably fall into this category. Those money-grabbers don't really believe all that religious shit. I couldn't do that, though.

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BTW, Irish...inquiring minds want to know...do you like spiders?

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Interesting inquiry. I love all of Mother earths creatures aside from things like lice, and things that carry malaria and limes disease.

 

Birds are the most fortunate at least the one's that can soar.

 

Ants and bees are interesting because they have been practicing communism in its purest form long before humans even existed.

 

But even a sensitive guy like myself needs to see a good beetle fight now and then. Id always bet on the feigning death beetle.

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BTW, Irish...inquiring minds want to know...do you like spiders?

 

I have wondered the same thing myself.  I think we have found a twin though.

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Pushing beliefs on others is what was done to me by Christians, so no, I don't think it's good.  The world will start getting better when people respect each others differences and stop thinking everyone should believe the same as them.  Otherwise, you're just the same as your enemy.

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BTW, Irish...inquiring minds want to know...do you like spiders?

I also wonder if you like the name, SpiderMan? It kind of goes along with spiders, you know?

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BTW, Irish...inquiring minds want to know...do you like spiders?

I also wonder if you like the name, SpiderMan? It kind of goes along with spiders, you know?

I like birdman of Alcatraz better

"Overcame faith" is even better because it is more relevant to the topic of discussion and to the purpose and theme of this website. If I want to talk about animals I should and will go to an animal forum unless it is relevent to animals practicing things like marriage such as birds that have the equivalent of a marriage ceremony, and keep the same spouse for a lifetime (true story).

 

Im here to benefit from being around those who overcame superstition to hopefully not fall back into it and to learn how to support others who are in this struggle as well.

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I'll admit few things religion-related are more repugnant to me than the idea of me, an atheist, secretly going into a church to deceive. It was deception that ultimately helped me see the man behind the curtain, or lack thereof, and I would not visit deception on other people knowingly.

It was hard enough being a doubting Christian in the church, hard enough always being on the wrong side of dogma. Hard enough wondering if I was betraying my Wife's ministry interests or sabotaging things on the home front. I was a doubter, albeit I did not fully understand so, for many years in the Church, and now I'm out. Return to the church? To doublethink? To thoughtcrime analysis? To a demand for orthodoxy of politic and dogma and faith? Demands, by the way, which I never even remotely satisfied when I called myself a Christian.

Even if I lacked the personal sense of honor enough to go try doing this, I can't imagine being in the slightest successful. I called myself a 'reasonable' Christian, but was more often than not unconvincing to Evangelicals, and basically atheist in my day to day life, especially my work in software engineering.

I have a hard time even comprehending how someone would engage this way. Evangelicalism is very proficient at finding out the unorthodox and rooting them out, or at least marginalizing them. They would not be the top dogs of orthodoxy if they were not this proficient. You cannot fake your doubts away, and you certainly couldn't fake your way through a situation where you knew full well you don't believe. They are expert thoughtcrime analysts, and they know who thinks right and who doesn't. They're always asking, checking, verifying. What they call accountability amounts to O'Brien and Symme from 1984.

They are way better at ferretting out dissidents than you are at being a dissident. So even if one had no sense of personal honor and were willing to conduct this operation, my betting money is that you will fail. Maybe succeed in something other than an evangelical church, but in evangelicalism you will fail at such a venture. Remember, for them, it's allegedly not about behavior, all the rules for engagement and conduct notwithstanding. It's about belief, and acceptance. Not only do you have to profess Christ, but your proof that you do believe is how well you align with the orthodoxy of the day, both Bible interpretation and political. They may be the supermajority, the religious arm of one powerful political party, the great Manifest Destiny of our time, but they imagine they are persecuted and few. They want to be the remnant, the few that hold true, while everything and everyone else is shaken out. That definitely would include an out atheist trying to go under cover.

Try reading and watching folks like Jerry DeWitt, an ex-Pentecostal pastor now atheist. It isn't any fun separating from such dogma, even if you haven't believed it for years. There's a lot of fallout for the doubter.

Are there doubters inside? Hell yes there are. But they're as watchful as anyone else, they don't want to be found out and have the goon squad onto them, or their spouse upset and their child's friends' parents making a scene. Talk to the doubters when they're *not* at church. At least for myself, the last years of my Christianity, I thought of myself as an atheist sympathizer. I knew the Christians Party Line about atheists was wholly incorrect. My field of work is full of them. But even though I went against the grain by accident and on purpose, I would not have had any respect for someone who acted deceitfully.

Christianity and its accompanying politic / power structure has more than enough deceit to go around.

If you don't share my sense of personal honor, just consider that making an attempt like this you are sure to lose. They are far better at sniffing out dissidents than you are at being an undercover Christian. They are experts at it, in fact. An atheist who went and did this wouldn't have my sympathies when they responded by doing what they are best at. Many ex-Christians have lost a lot of things in life, sometimes marriages. People like Jerry DeWitt lost their jobs and had to leave town. It's as bad as the Muslim world's ISIS, only the secular state prevents the Evangelicals from carrying out their activities to the ultimate end.

Before you go any further, look up Christian Reconstructionism. It's all over Evangelical America, I don't know about Europe and elsewhere. Read Jeff Charlet's books on Christian fundamentalism and power in America.

It's my opinion we are the ones who have the capacity to act with honor in this situation, and ought to leave the Orwellian behavior, and the undercover activities, to the Christian Powers.

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I'm an out ex-christian, so it wouldn't work in the church I attended.

 

I have no scruples with infiltrating another church.  It actually sounds like fun.

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