Castiel233 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 My previous marriage was not very happy. We both get on fine now and I offered a generous settlement when we divorced. There were faults on both sides and it was right that we split up. One thing springs to mind however: My ex would sometimes blame external things on our marriage problems. We were not happy because I spent to much time with others, or I spent too much time at work, etc (not that I was Mr Perfect admittedly) If I corrected a problem, then a new problem arose. Upon reflection the problem was us, we were not well suited, so it didn't really matter if I put something right, there would still be tension. Simply put we were not happy as a couple. As I say all fine now and we offer each other practical support if needed. Which brings me to Christianity and the complaints of the faithful: The world is not happy, because of Gay Marriage, The US is under judgement because teacher lead prayer has been taken out of public school. Crime is on the up because God is being pushed out of the national conversation and so and so forth. OK, picture a world in which every class starts with two hours of enforced prayer, where gays are stoned to death and where 90 percent of television programming is given over Christian promotion. Will crime go now, will we be blessed with wealth and health. No, so the goal posts will be moved again and again. Every time society moved to placate Christian doctrine, believers would still complain.Things still would not be right.........because Christianity is the problem not the solution, just like my previous marriage, we were the problem. Actually I don't think a lot of Christians leaders want to see social issues solved in their favor, I suspect they love hot button topics (such as abortion) as it allows them to galvanize the faithful, shores up their base, re-enforces their political power (particularly in the US) plus they can beg for donations to "fight" secularist ideas. Note the Bible is anti family, yet without a blush, Christian leaders promote family values. The Bible promotes poverty and yet look at how top name evangelicals live.Proof that they are not really interested the authority of the Bible. As Hitchens rightly noted, they are interested in power in the here and now and that is all. Rank and file believers cannot see they are being taken for a ride and a very grim one at that. I say quite deliberately that Christianity will never resolve human suffering, because it is a root cause of it. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I agree. Religion poisons everything. (Another great Hitchens line. *raises glass to his memory*) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 By and large organized religion has its' roots deeply embedded in social conservatism. Hence, there is a constant harkening back to a perceived time when "the truth" held sway in society as a whole and the prejudices of society and of the perceived law of god coincided. In the U.K. that's basically seen as the Victorian era, gradually fading away to the post World War II period when the empire finally disintegrated. I suspect for those who lived during that period, it was seen as a yet earlier time, The social ills of the perceived golden era are ignored - apparently crime is so much worse today and violence more widespread than it has ever been, but no-one actually looks at the hooliganism and violence of late 19th century cities, or the viciousness of the wars of that period (forgetting such gems as the invention of concentration camps by the British etc...). Christianity seems generally to seek to poison progress and to enforce the status-quo of past oppressions. Hardly surprising, perhaps, for a religion that is servile in nature and sees unquestioning obedience as the highest good. Goalposts move because the nature of social conservatism moves (in 100 years time, perhaps today will be seen as the golden age) and because a religion that is convinced of the intrinsic evil of modernity will always identify something - anything - to be a new threat. In short, it is the religion of institutionalized social prejudice. At least, that's how it looks to me in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 OK, picture a world in which every class starts with two hours of enforced prayer, where gays are stoned to death and where 90 percent of television programming is given over Christian promotion. Will crime go now, will we be blessed with wealth and health. No That's because the remainder of the school day is still prayerless and 10% of television programming is still evil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 My previous marriage was not very happy. We both get on fine now and I offered a generous settlement when we divorced. There were faults on both sides and it was right that we split up. One thing springs to mind however: My ex would sometimes blame external things on our marriage problems. We were not happy because I spent to much time with others, or I spent too much time at work, etc (not that I was Mr Perfect admittedly) If I corrected a problem, then a new problem arose. Upon reflection the problem was us, we were not well suited, so it didn't really matter if I put something right, there would still be tension. Simply put we were not happy as a couple. As I say all fine now and we offer each other practical support if needed. Which brings me to Christianity and the complaints of the faithful: The world is not happy, because of Gay Marriage, The US is under judgement because teacher lead prayer has been taken out of public school. Crime is on the up because God is being pushed out of the national conversation and so and so forth. OK, picture a world in which every class starts with two hours of enforced prayer, where gays are stoned to death and where 90 percent of television programming is given over Christian promotion. Will crime go now, will we be blessed with wealth and health. No, so the goal posts will be moved again and again. Every time society moved to placate Christian doctrine, believers would still complain.Things still would not be right.........because Christianity is the problem not the solution, just like my previous marriage, we were the problem. Actually I don't think a lot of Christians leaders want to see social issues solved in their favor, I suspect they love hot button topics (such as abortion) as it allows them to galvanize the faithful, shores up their base, re-enforces their political power (particularly in the US) plus they can beg for donations to "fight" secularist ideas. Note the Bible is anti family, yet without a blush, Christian leaders promote family values. The Bible promotes poverty and yet look at how top name evangelicals live.Proof that they are not really interested the authority of the Bible. As Hitchens rightly noted, they are interested in power in the here and now and that is all. Rank and file believers cannot see they are being taken for a ride and a very grim one at that. I say quite deliberately that Christianity will never resolve human suffering, because it is a root cause of it. Murica is under judgment because I dont agree God doesn't agree with gay marriage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
older Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You are right when you suggest that if problems were solved, Christians would just find a new villain. The basic strategy of salesmanship is to first convince the buyer that he or she has a problem, and then that you have the solution to that problem. I also think the notion of regular prayer in school is a false memory. When was there prayer in public schools? Did any of you have regular prayer, led by a teacher, in a public school? I went to grammar school in the 1950s, during the McCarthy era when anti-Communism was at its peak. I remember when the Pledge of Allegiance was changed to include the "under God" phrase. I only remember once being lead in prayer by a teacher. It never happened in junior high or high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You are right when you suggest that if problems were solved, Christians would just find a new villain. The basic strategy of salesmanship is to first convince the buyer that he or she has a problem, and then that you have the solution to that problem. I also think the notion of regular prayer in school is a false memory. When was there prayer in public schools? Did any of you have regular prayer, led by a teacher, in a public school? I went to grammar school in the 1950s, during the McCarthy era when anti-Communism was at its peak. I remember when the Pledge of Allegiance was changed to include the "under God" phrase. I only remember once being lead in prayer by a teacher. It never happened in junior high or high school. Not sure where public school prayer goes on. I have never once seen this when I was in school. I am sure it does but those leading it should be fired. They are violating the right to religious freedom unless they allow all prayer from every religion at the same time. My guess is you cannot whip out your prayer mat and face whatever direction that one faces and start launching into a prayer for islam without getting jumped in an American school. In America for the most part religious freedom means that christians have the freedom to persecute other religions and atheist while pretending they are persecuted in the most open religious nation that has ever existed on earth. We may not like all these religions but you cannot deny no one is showing up at your door and putting you in prison for prayer anyplace I have ever been in America. They are lucky and they should complain less. In the end it will get taken away from them if they don't learn how to play nice in the group sandbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I also think the notion of regular prayer in school is a false memory. When was there prayer in public schools? Did any of you have regular prayer, led by a teacher, in a public school? I went to grammar school in the 1950s, during the McCarthy era when anti-Communism was at its peak. I remember when the Pledge of Allegiance was changed to include the "under God" phrase. I only remember once being lead in prayer by a teacher. It never happened in junior high or high school. Not sure where public school prayer goes on. I have never once seen this when I was in school. I am sure it does but those leading it should be fired. They are violating the right to religious freedom unless they allow all prayer from every religion at the same time. My guess is you cannot whip out your prayer mat and face whatever direction that one faces and start launching into a prayer for islam without getting jumped in an American school. I think you missed the point. Older wasn't talking about now; he was talking about pre-1962. It probably didn't go on everywhere, but it was definitely happening. There wouldn't have been a challenge against it if nobody was doing it. In America for the most part religious freedom means that christians have the freedom to persecute other religions and atheist while pretending they are persecuted in the most open religious nation that has ever existed on earth. We may not like all these religions but you cannot deny no one is showing up at your door and putting you in prison for prayer anyplace I have ever been in America. They are lucky and they should complain less. In the end it will get taken away from them if they don't learn how to play nice in the group sandbox. Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I also think the notion of regular prayer in school is a false memory. When was there prayer in public schools? Did any of you have regular prayer, led by a teacher, in a public school? I went to grammar school in the 1950s, during the McCarthy era when anti-Communism was at its peak. I remember when the Pledge of Allegiance was changed to include the "under God" phrase. I only remember once being lead in prayer by a teacher. It never happened in junior high or high school. Not sure where public school prayer goes on. I have never once seen this when I was in school. I am sure it does but those leading it should be fired. They are violating the right to religious freedom unless they allow all prayer from every religion at the same time. My guess is you cannot whip out your prayer mat and face whatever direction that one faces and start launching into a prayer for islam without getting jumped in an American school. I think you missed the point. Older wasn't talking about now; he was talking about pre-1962. It probably didn't go on everywhere, but it was definitely happening. There wouldn't have been a challenge against it if nobody was doing it. In America for the most part religious freedom means that christians have the freedom to persecute other religions and atheist while pretending they are persecuted in the most open religious nation that has ever existed on earth. We may not like all these religions but you cannot deny no one is showing up at your door and putting you in prison for prayer anyplace I have ever been in America. They are lucky and they should complain less. In the end it will get taken away from them if they don't learn how to play nice in the group sandbox. Well said! Things sometimes suck now but I am really glad I was not around pre 1962. I would have been in fights all the damn time with people lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted October 22, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2014 I started first grade in 1960 in Virginia. Public school. We had to say the Lord's Prayer every morning. One of my first school memories was being laughed at and ridiculed for saying "Amen" too early -- before actually finishing the prayer. I was being raised catholic -- a rarity in the South, especially back then. Until I was "enlightened" by those other six-year olds, I never knew about:"For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever."Of course the kids went home and told their parents "There's this catholic girl in school..." and then they said to me "My parents say that catholics fill in the blank . You're going to hell." I am now 60 years old and still recall those days as if they just happened yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I started first grade in 1960 in Virginia. Public school. We had to say the Lord's Prayer every morning. One of my first school memories was being laughed at and ridiculed for saying "Amen" too early -- before actually finishing the prayer. I was being raised catholic -- a rarity in the South, especially back then. Until I was "enlightened" by those other six-year olds, I never knew about: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever." Of course the kids went home and told their parents "There's this catholic girl in school..." and then they said to me "My parents say that catholics fill in the blank . You're going to hell." I am now 60 years old and still recall those days as if they just happened yesterday. sucks. I went to a private christian school... can you imagine how fun it is to know by 7 years old you never eve believed in god and then are forced to deal with a school and all that religious crap around you all day for the next 8 years? Then again the 1960's where not a shining become of religious freedom or freedom from religion that we are afforded today. I would have been ejected from my community in that era for the things I will say in public now. Sorry you had to deal with that in a setting that should have enforced your freedom not used the classroom as a pulpit or a jail cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Buffettphan (hug) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted October 25, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2014 Aw, thanks gall and FTNZ. "Lucky" me got to start attending catholic school in 4th grade. But that's a whole 'nuther story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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